I wouldn't necessarily expect the club to make any official statement or declaration on the matter but I'd hope and expect them to stand firmly behind every Wycombe player - black, white or mixed race - who chose to make their views public.
For what it's worth, I agree that the vast majority of the protests are peaceful, and that certain groups (Antifa, for example)
I need to pull you up on only one thing in your post Shev. Antifa is NOT a group. It literally means Anti Fascist.
There are groups that are Antifa but there is no one card carrying group that is called Antifa. Some of those groups that are also Antifa are the ones that have caused the violence.
Don't fall into the same trap Trump has by declaring ALL Antifa groups as potential terrorists or violent protestors.
To do so would, well..... by that logic people like Churchill and Eisenhower and any one else that fought in WW2 are Terrorists as they literally fought a war which was based on being anti fascist.
Antifa is a movement comprised of groups. Way to miss the point, anyway.
I know someone near and dear to me who went as an independent observer to an Antifa rally, listening to conversations and walking around to see what they got up to. There was no talk of fascism, or how to beat it, just planning and execution of as much violence as possible. This is consistent with many other reports, but knowing an eye-witness personally always helps.
But I defer to the pontificating experts in middle class England, of course.
@StrongestTeam said:
AntiFa? Anti-fascist. Anti Racist. We should all be this.
A lot of the "fuss" for want of a better word is around being specific. Let's get people arrested who have been seen to do things wrong, proportionally with dignity, not declaring groups of people bad and charging into protestors or random people on supposed other side's.
Antifa is their name, not their M.O.
It's the name the racist president gave a variety of groups, individuals and protestors in order to justify ignoring and ultimately attacking anyone who disagrees with him.
Again appropriate punishment for individual crimes must be preserved.
This name was around long before Trump, mate. And I am not with Trump on anything, or any politician, for that matter.
@StrongestTeam said:
AntiFa? Anti-fascist. Anti Racist. We should all be this.
A lot of the "fuss" for want of a better word is around being specific. Let's get people arrested who have been seen to do things wrong, proportionally with dignity, not declaring groups of people bad and charging into protestors or random people on supposed other side's.
Antifa is their name, not their M.O.
It's the name the racist president gave a variety of groups, individuals and protestors in order to justify ignoring and ultimately attacking anyone who disagrees with him.
Again appropriate punishment for individual crimes must be preserved.
This name was around long before Trump, mate. And I am not with Trump on anything, or any politician, for that matter.
Antifa to anyone outside the USA is very different to anyone in it....
@StrongestTeam said:
AntiFa? Anti-fascist. Anti Racist. We should all be this.
A lot of the "fuss" for want of a better word is around being specific. Let's get people arrested who have been seen to do things wrong, proportionally with dignity, not declaring groups of people bad and charging into protestors or random people on supposed other side's.
Antifa is their name, not their M.O.
It's the name the racist president gave a variety of groups, individuals and protestors in order to justify ignoring and ultimately attacking anyone who disagrees with him.
Again appropriate punishment for individual crimes must be preserved.
This name was around long before Trump, mate. And I am not with Trump on anything, or any politician, for that matter.
Not really, over here anyway, certainly not seen it used in a derogatory way pre-Trump. Apparently it's from the German word for the same but I'd never heard of it used in this way pre-trump, quick look on Wikipedia (I know) suggests its use blew up around 2017.
Antifa is a movement comprised of groups. Way to miss the point, anyway.
I know someone near and dear to me who went as an independent observer to an Antifa rally, listening to conversations and walking around to see what they got up to. There was no talk of fascism, or how to beat it, just planning and execution of as much violence as possible. This is consistent with many other reports, but knowing an eye-witness personally always helps.
But I defer to the pontificating experts in middle class England, of course.
Is Antifa a group or GroupS. You said it was 1 group originally but now you are changing it.
But of course, I bow to your anecdotal evidence from you one friend at a rally and potential confirmation bias when reading reports that have involved violence at Antifa rallies.
You know, its a bit like those anti capitalist rallies that have thousand of people attending but a small hardcore group that smash things up. "all anti-capitalists are violent".
Or, to bring it to football, all football fans are hooligans cos a smaller hardcore group organise fights.
Fair enough - I have heard it used here by the groups themselves for years and years. I am not trying to be adversarial with anyone. I can't stand politics, and never vote, but as someone rightly said, this cause is above politics (which is why I am posting in the first place).
My point is that fighting racism is more than posting on social media, and the true fight cannot be won by violence. If I am on my own in being truly non-violent, so be it. But if you endorse violence, you have to be willing to make it personal - if it was YOUR house or business burning down, if it was YOUR police officer relative being shot in the back of the head, would you stand by and applaud? It's very different when you are aware of the heartache being caused by the retaliation. The whole thing becomes a lot less abstract, and just seems like violence begetting more violence in an endless cycle.
@Shev said:
Fair enough - I have heard it used here by the groups themselves for years and years. I am not trying to be adversarial with anyone. I can't stand politics, and never vote, but as someone rightly said, this cause is above politics (which is why I am posting in the first place).
My point is that fighting racism is more than posting on social media, and the true fight cannot be won by violence. If I am on my own in being truly non-violent, so be it. But if you endorse violence, you have to be willing to make it personal - if it was YOUR house or business burning down, if it was YOUR police officer relative being shot in the back of the head, would you stand by and applaud? It's very different when you are aware of the heartache being caused by the retaliation. The whole thing becomes a lot less abstract, and just seems like violence begetting more violence in an endless cycle.
Yes 100%. Some of my family are BAME so would experience those things daily in the current situation in america, oppression, the risk of someone they know being killed for no reason - it's the norm for lots of black Americans
The police should be (and are in some cases) standing with the protestors. Those who are antagonising protesters and being aggressive are the problem themselves.
Antifa is a movement comprised of groups. Way to miss the point, anyway.
I know someone near and dear to me who went as an independent observer to an Antifa rally, listening to conversations and walking around to see what they got up to. There was no talk of fascism, or how to beat it, just planning and execution of as much violence as possible. This is consistent with many other reports, but knowing an eye-witness personally always helps.
But I defer to the pontificating experts in middle class England, of course.
Is Antifa a group or GroupS. You said it was 1 group originally but now you are changing it.
But of course, I bow to your anecdotal evidence from you one friend at a rally and potential confirmation bias when reading reports that have involved violence at Antifa rallies.
You know, its a bit like those anti capitalist rallies that have thousand of people attending but a small hardcore group that smash things up. "all anti-capitalists are violent".
Or, to bring it to football, all football fans are hooligans cos a smaller hardcore group organise fights.
I tend to go with eye-witness evidence over most other reports, actually. Maybe there is a better way.
I actually feel I have a lot less confirmation bias than most, simply because I loathe politics, so I don't have a dog in the fight as far as left wing versus right wing. Politics is one of the most difficult arenas for mutual understanding, as both sides tend to absolutely hate each other. I feel as though any of these violent groups pretending they are doing it for a cause is no different than what happened in Northern Ireland, as far as the violence being removed from the supposed cause. And I don't care if it is the left or the right.
@Chris said:
Making a deliberate decision not to vote is just as political as voting.
If that is true, I am amazingly political! But I don't see the logic - is Switzerland as warlike as other nations because they insist on remaining neutral in conflict?
@Shev said:
Fair enough - I have heard it used here by the groups themselves for years and years. I am not trying to be adversarial with anyone. I can't stand politics, and never vote, but as someone rightly said, this cause is above politics (which is why I am posting in the first place).
My point is that fighting racism is more than posting on social media, and the true fight cannot be won by violence. If I am on my own in being truly non-violent, so be it. But if you endorse violence, you have to be willing to make it personal - if it was YOUR house or business burning down, if it was YOUR police officer relative being shot in the back of the head, would you stand by and applaud? It's very different when you are aware of the heartache being caused by the retaliation. The whole thing becomes a lot less abstract, and just seems like violence begetting more violence in an endless cycle.
Yes 100%. Some of my family are BAME so would experience those things daily in the current situation in america, oppression, the risk of someone they know being killed for no reason - it's the norm for lots of black Americans
The police should be (and are in some cases) standing with the protestors. Those who are antagonising protesters and being aggressive are the problem themselves.
I agree, for sure. The few situations where the police have marched with peaceful protesters have made for the most powerful images and message (in my opinion, of course). It all comes back to violence begetting violence, and peace begetting peace.
@Chris said:
Making a deliberate decision not to vote is just as political as voting.
If that is true, I am amazingly political! But I don't see the logic - is Switzerland as warlike as other nations because they insist on remaining neutral in conflict?
Nobody is totally neutral, particularly when horrendous things are happening. Doing nothing is a form of enabling.
Switzerland not a great example, If you allow / assisted looted gold and artwork to be deposited in your bank's but deny refugees entry over the border are you really staying out of it?
That doesn't mean everyone has to get involved in everything and we know most social media , even on here, is hot air.
I was using Switzerland as an illustration of the logical fallacy with regards to being political/non-political, not as a claim of neutrality in the issue at hand (which again, is not fundamentally political). I do believe you can refuse to vote because you are not political and intensely dislike politics.
I completely agree that you cannot be neutral on certain issues - I just refuse to think Wycombe are racist (or enablers of racism) because they don't tweet something, nor that you don't care about an issue because you are not screaming. The actions of the club show that it has consistently opposed racism, and promoted a really wonderful culture that embraces every possible variation of player and fan.
@Shev said:
I was using Switzerland as an illustration of the logical fallacy with regards to being political/non-political, not as a claim of neutrality in the issue at hand (which again, is not fundamentally political). I do believe you can refuse to vote because you are not political and intensely dislike politics.
I completely agree that you cannot be neutral on certain issues - I just refuse to think Wycombe are racist (or enablers of racism) because they don't tweet something, nor that you don't care about an issue because you are not screaming. The actions of the club show that it has consistently opposed racism, and promoted a really wonderful culture that embraces every possible variation of player and fan.
I wouldn't disagree, unfortunately I've seen some of the stupid replies to these kind of well meaning statements and to statements around club finances and some on twitter are vile. It's possible the club just didn't want to get into arguments and I think that's sad tbh. In reality all most of those posting on this subject are asking is for people to acknowledge an issue and see if we can do any better.
That is fair enough, @StrongestTeam . I genuinely believe the vast majority of people are united against racism. The disagreement (including on here) is exactly how to go about it.
Clubs can be powerful tools for various causes, in the right scenario. I will always love AS Roma for putting the missing kid photos next to each signing announcement. Several kids were found. That is an amazing example of the impact a club can have.
@Shev said:
I was using Switzerland as an illustration of the logical fallacy with regards to being political/non-political, not as a claim of neutrality in the issue at hand (which again, is not fundamentally political). I do believe you can refuse to vote because you are not political and intensely dislike politics.
I completely agree that you cannot be neutral on certain issues - I just refuse to think Wycombe are racist (or enablers of racism) because they don't tweet something, nor that you don't care about an issue because you are not screaming. The actions of the club show that it has consistently opposed racism, and promoted a really wonderful culture that embraces every possible variation of player and fan.
No one is saying Wycombe are racist if they do not release a statement, more that in an ideal world absolutely every organisation with a public platform would be doing so, because (in my opinion anyway) it is overwhelmingly the right thing to do, and the right thing to support. History rarely looks kindly upon those who stay quiet in times of mass persecution - again a sweeping statement and WWFC will hardly be damned for not doing so, but I for one would very much like it if they did take a stand of some degree.
Once again being able to stay out of these debates, or indeed being able to be politically neutral in any sense at all, is a significant example of privilege whether enabled by race, sexuality gender, socio-economic status, or all of the above. For some people staying out of politics is simply not even an option.
Turn on your tv right now and look at the hundreds of thousands of people out in the streets protesting peacefully. You are diverting the conversation to a left v right issues when it clearly isn’t.
If you think any state has ever given away rights without a violent pushback you need to polish up on your history. Mandela, Ghandi, Dr Martin Luther King, Pankhurst etc etc all used a lot more than passive resistance to achieve their goals. Received wisdom and the passing of time has in many ways softened their stories as they became part of the establishment.
I maybe white middle class but I chat to my American best friend every day, belong to a number of US hobbyist forums and drove 5000 miles across America’s backwaters last year talking to locals about their lives and experiences. But hey, way to dismiss us all as uninformed.
I think I used some poor phrasing in my previous post.
I meant to say the state has pushed back violently, it’s simply a matter of record both here and in the US. I wasn’t trying to suggest violence against the state is necessary or desirable but that history shows us there is always a struggle.
@Shev said:
MLK was extremely wise in his use of non-violent protests, as he realized that violence and peace are actual opposites, and counteract one another. If you use a flamethrower to put out a fire, you just make the fire larger.
I don’t agree that the end always justifies the means, even for an obviously worthy cause like this. If you approve violence as a way of highlighting an issue you are heading in a very dangerous direction.
@Shev said:
MLK was extremely wise in his use of non-violent protests, as he realized that violence and peace are actual opposites, and counteract one another. If you use a flamethrower to put out a fire, you just make the fire larger.
I don’t agree that the end always justifies the means, even for an obviously worthy cause like this. If you approve violence as a way of highlighting an issue you are heading in a very dangerous direction.
What would you suggest these protestors do @glasshalffull? Give up and go home because some have taken advantage and broken the law?
Surely we bring those looting to justice and protect everyone else’s right to protest.
Yes Eric. But just as bad things - worse in fact - happen daily across the world. Humanity is a horrid species. Much as we would like to, we cant influence those problems. Rather than this weird obsession with the USA, lets first worry about and fix those problems we have here and in our neighbours in Europe.
Comments
I wouldn't necessarily expect the club to make any official statement or declaration on the matter but I'd hope and expect them to stand firmly behind every Wycombe player - black, white or mixed race - who chose to make their views public.
Antifa is a movement comprised of groups. Way to miss the point, anyway.
I know someone near and dear to me who went as an independent observer to an Antifa rally, listening to conversations and walking around to see what they got up to. There was no talk of fascism, or how to beat it, just planning and execution of as much violence as possible. This is consistent with many other reports, but knowing an eye-witness personally always helps.
But I defer to the pontificating experts in middle class England, of course.
This name was around long before Trump, mate. And I am not with Trump on anything, or any politician, for that matter.
Antifa to anyone outside the USA is very different to anyone in it....
Not really, over here anyway, certainly not seen it used in a derogatory way pre-Trump. Apparently it's from the German word for the same but I'd never heard of it used in this way pre-trump, quick look on Wikipedia (I know) suggests its use blew up around 2017.
Is Antifa a group or GroupS. You said it was 1 group originally but now you are changing it.
But of course, I bow to your anecdotal evidence from you one friend at a rally and potential confirmation bias when reading reports that have involved violence at Antifa rallies.
You know, its a bit like those anti capitalist rallies that have thousand of people attending but a small hardcore group that smash things up. "all anti-capitalists are violent".
Or, to bring it to football, all football fans are hooligans cos a smaller hardcore group organise fights.
Fair enough - I have heard it used here by the groups themselves for years and years. I am not trying to be adversarial with anyone. I can't stand politics, and never vote, but as someone rightly said, this cause is above politics (which is why I am posting in the first place).
My point is that fighting racism is more than posting on social media, and the true fight cannot be won by violence. If I am on my own in being truly non-violent, so be it. But if you endorse violence, you have to be willing to make it personal - if it was YOUR house or business burning down, if it was YOUR police officer relative being shot in the back of the head, would you stand by and applaud? It's very different when you are aware of the heartache being caused by the retaliation. The whole thing becomes a lot less abstract, and just seems like violence begetting more violence in an endless cycle.
Making a deliberate decision not to vote is just as political as voting.
Yes 100%. Some of my family are BAME so would experience those things daily in the current situation in america, oppression, the risk of someone they know being killed for no reason - it's the norm for lots of black Americans
The police should be (and are in some cases) standing with the protestors. Those who are antagonising protesters and being aggressive are the problem themselves.
I tend to go with eye-witness evidence over most other reports, actually. Maybe there is a better way.
I actually feel I have a lot less confirmation bias than most, simply because I loathe politics, so I don't have a dog in the fight as far as left wing versus right wing. Politics is one of the most difficult arenas for mutual understanding, as both sides tend to absolutely hate each other. I feel as though any of these violent groups pretending they are doing it for a cause is no different than what happened in Northern Ireland, as far as the violence being removed from the supposed cause. And I don't care if it is the left or the right.
If that is true, I am amazingly political! But I don't see the logic - is Switzerland as warlike as other nations because they insist on remaining neutral in conflict?
I agree, for sure. The few situations where the police have marched with peaceful protesters have made for the most powerful images and message (in my opinion, of course). It all comes back to violence begetting violence, and peace begetting peace.
Nobody is totally neutral, particularly when horrendous things are happening. Doing nothing is a form of enabling.
Switzerland not a great example, If you allow / assisted looted gold and artwork to be deposited in your bank's but deny refugees entry over the border are you really staying out of it?
That doesn't mean everyone has to get involved in everything and we know most social media , even on here, is hot air.
I was using Switzerland as an illustration of the logical fallacy with regards to being political/non-political, not as a claim of neutrality in the issue at hand (which again, is not fundamentally political). I do believe you can refuse to vote because you are not political and intensely dislike politics.
I completely agree that you cannot be neutral on certain issues - I just refuse to think Wycombe are racist (or enablers of racism) because they don't tweet something, nor that you don't care about an issue because you are not screaming. The actions of the club show that it has consistently opposed racism, and promoted a really wonderful culture that embraces every possible variation of player and fan.
I wouldn't disagree, unfortunately I've seen some of the stupid replies to these kind of well meaning statements and to statements around club finances and some on twitter are vile. It's possible the club just didn't want to get into arguments and I think that's sad tbh. In reality all most of those posting on this subject are asking is for people to acknowledge an issue and see if we can do any better.
It is not possible to not be political. Not voting is in itself a political act.
That is fair enough, @StrongestTeam . I genuinely believe the vast majority of people are united against racism. The disagreement (including on here) is exactly how to go about it.
Clubs can be powerful tools for various causes, in the right scenario. I will always love AS Roma for putting the missing kid photos next to each signing announcement. Several kids were found. That is an amazing example of the impact a club can have.
I think we should all have a vote on whether you are right.
No one is saying Wycombe are racist if they do not release a statement, more that in an ideal world absolutely every organisation with a public platform would be doing so, because (in my opinion anyway) it is overwhelmingly the right thing to do, and the right thing to support. History rarely looks kindly upon those who stay quiet in times of mass persecution - again a sweeping statement and WWFC will hardly be damned for not doing so, but I for one would very much like it if they did take a stand of some degree.
Once again being able to stay out of these debates, or indeed being able to be politically neutral in any sense at all, is a significant example of privilege whether enabled by race, sexuality gender, socio-economic status, or all of the above. For some people staying out of politics is simply not even an option.
@shev
Turn on your tv right now and look at the hundreds of thousands of people out in the streets protesting peacefully. You are diverting the conversation to a left v right issues when it clearly isn’t.
If you think any state has ever given away rights without a violent pushback you need to polish up on your history. Mandela, Ghandi, Dr Martin Luther King, Pankhurst etc etc all used a lot more than passive resistance to achieve their goals. Received wisdom and the passing of time has in many ways softened their stories as they became part of the establishment.
I maybe white middle class but I chat to my American best friend every day, belong to a number of US hobbyist forums and drove 5000 miles across America’s backwaters last year talking to locals about their lives and experiences. But hey, way to dismiss us all as uninformed.
Fuck me
No thanks.
I think I used some poor phrasing in my previous post.
I meant to say the state has pushed back violently, it’s simply a matter of record both here and in the US. I wasn’t trying to suggest violence against the state is necessary or desirable but that history shows us there is always a struggle.
We are not American - thank goodness. it has become a country to console us when things here look bad - at least we are not thaaaaaat bad.
Let them worry about their problems.
We have plenty of our own problems here and in our neighbours in Europe to put right first before getting involved in theirs.
Dev, you can't just watch a video of a man slowly having the life choked out of him and react with indifference because we've got problems of our own.
I don’t agree that the end always justifies the means, even for an obviously worthy cause like this. If you approve violence as a way of highlighting an issue you are heading in a very dangerous direction.
Perhaps there are some circumstances where violence is the best option remaining.
What would you suggest these protestors do @glasshalffull? Give up and go home because some have taken advantage and broken the law?
Surely we bring those looting to justice and protect everyone else’s right to protest.
Yes Eric. But just as bad things - worse in fact - happen daily across the world. Humanity is a horrid species. Much as we would like to, we cant influence those problems. Rather than this weird obsession with the USA, lets first worry about and fix those problems we have here and in our neighbours in Europe.