@PrinceOfCrowell it's not sour grapes, I fully understand and respect why I don't have a vote. I'm just amazed that those who do can be so cavalier with theirs.
We know next to nothing about the man who's bought the club other than how much he loves it (having had a bid for one club fall through, being rejected by Wycombe initially and then being literally on his way to scope out another club when Wycombe called begging for a bridging loan).
We've just endured a regime which - to say the least - has lacked transparency, only to jump into the arms of someone who did not make himself available for scrutiny after the draft terms of the deal were announced. Someone who has yet to convince (me, at least) that he has the finances to subsidise the club if his plan (so far just a hazy skeleton plan) does not work out. And someone whose first announcement on purchasing the club was to give notice that we are likely to profoundly disagree with some of his decisions about running it in the future.
Whilst I agree with everything above @aloysius I’m under the impression that it was the Supporters Trust who didn’t want to send out the 50 page document electronically and didn’t want Rob there for scrutiny.
Cavalier @aloysius?
The problem I had was there was no counter proposal, nothing except a couple of pie in the sky ideas floated on here.
One unbelievably relied on potential bidders paying to keep the club afloat as a prerequisite to enter by bidding process, something I’m not sure is legal apart from being highly speculative with the clubs immediate future. How’s that for cavalier .
In the meantime I have our trust board who represent us as a fan owned club hands on communal heart telling us that a vote against would be an extinction event.
We have the granddaughter of Frank Adams and representative of the Frank Adams trust asking us to support the bid.
All the supporting evidence given shows that we would struggle in the short and medium term with a debt burden and would have to make swingeing cuts immediately and the deal while not perfect keeps a percentage of fan ownership.
There is a a good argument that the trust board has failed by putting us in the position we were and that new talented people need to stand for election but to call our decision cavalier is unfair and yes sour grapes.
Appreciate both @aloysius's considered exposition and @BuckinghamBlue's equally well-judged response. If we take out the "cavalier" adjective, we have a valuable discussion that prompts constructive thought, so thanks!
For all the criticisms, many of them valid, of recent processes, the trust board, Rob Couhig, the legacy members, Facebook, the Gasroom, and the state of the crisps, you never, ever hear anyone put forward anything remotely resembling an alternative to Rob’s takeover.
Maybe if things had been done differently starting about 6 years ago, we could have remained trust owned, or sold the club to someone with a process or owner more to everyone’s liking.
Maybe all our books would be in the black if we’d somehow found all these other far more qualified trust board members, apparently just waiting in the wings for their chance to fix all the clubs’ woes trust, who couldn’t get a look in according to an unfalsifiable conspiracy theory.
But the vote has been passed, and passed by an overwhelmingly majority. If you want to sit and throw your toys out the pram, that’s entirely up to you. But it seems deeply unproductive to me.
I've thought for a while that £16 (in advance) to stand on the terrace is too cheap for League One football (certainly compared with other clubs), even if it has helped to make that the busiest part of the ground. My mates who support other clubs (at a range of levels) can never believe how cheap my terrace season ticket is either. I guess it'll become more controversial if they start taking away the kids' freebies and OAP discounts.
@Last_Quarter said:
I've thought for a while that £16 (in advance) to stand on the terrace is too cheap for League One football (certainly compared with other clubs), even if it has helped to make that the busiest part of the ground. My mates who support other clubs (at a range of levels) can never believe how cheap my terrace season ticket is either. I guess it'll become more controversial if they start taking away the kids' freebies and OAP discounts.
Unless we start getting to the point where the free kids seats are " costing " us money as we're selling out, I can't see those going, it's such an obvious way to get new supporters.
Think plenty of people will be fine with removing OAP discounts, on average pensioners have more disposable income than workers under 30...
I expect ticket prices will go up, hopefully not by much though.
@Steve_Peart When you asked for the colours to be included in the enshrined rights, as you mentioned earlier in the thread, did you get a response confirming that they would be, or is this still a pending question?
It’s years since ticket prices went up isn’t it despite promotion, improving matchday experience, several exciting additions to the playing squad and the highest position in the Football League since we joined a quarter of a century ago. Coincidentally, I became a pensioner around the same time (though not a State Pensioner until eight years later). I would have no objection whatsoever to, say, a 5-10% increase in the cost of my season ticket - more, of course, if/when we make the Championship..
The apparent sustainability of Exeter City has surely been a short-term phenomenon resulting from substantial transfer fees and highly remunerative Cup runs. A bubble, considerably larger than the one we experienced a few seasons ago and, it would appear, about to burst.
@davecz said:
Unfortunately some people still live in a parallel universe were fan run clubs prosper, make profit every year and don’t need outside support. Probably still believe in unicorns!!!
Exeter is a parallel universe?
Parallel universe's tend to run youth academies! Exeter have sold well over £5m worth of young players in the last 4 years.
@davecz said:
Unfortunately some people still live in a parallel universe were fan run clubs prosper, make profit every year and don’t need outside support. Probably still believe in unicorns!!!
Exeter is a parallel universe?
Parallel universe's tend to run youth academies! Exeter have sold well over £5m worth in the last 4 years.
That's fairly unsustainable to continue doing though.
@LeedsBlue, David Smith said that the addition of the colours clause will be taken up with Rob Couhig. Whether we get feedback on that remains to be seen.
David told me that there are no plans at present for legacy members to see the final document, and that in a general corporate context it would be unusual to do this. The approval resolution is based on the draft agreement and the summary sent to members, but a decision on final document viewing by members will be taken up with the Trust board, and with Feliciana.
I am concerned that, if the wording is not correct on the voting form, then the final agreement document may also not be correct, in terms of an oversight.
@Chickenhead said:
Like to see you live on £167 pounds a week. Username.
Don't start this one again for friggery's sake, or Dev will steam in saying how all pensioners are so loaded, it's a myth any of them actually live on the breadline!
@micra said:
It’s years since ticket prices went up isn’t it despite promotion, improving matchday experience, several exciting additions to the playing squad and the highest position in the Football League since we joined a quarter of a century ago. Coincidentally, I became a pensioner around the same time (though not a State Pensioner until eight years later). I would have no objection whatsoever to, say, a 5-10% increase in the cost of my season ticket - more, of course, if/when we make the Championship..
The apparent sustainability of Exeter City has surely been a short-term phenomenon resulting from substantial transfer fees and highly remunerative Cup runs. A bubble, considerably larger than the one we experienced a few seasons ago and, it would appear, about to burst.
Wasn't the last price increase when we went up? They smuggled it through based on that!
What they could very easily do, is re-introduce that premium on the centre block on the Frank Adams. I remember a few peeps like @Tory_Goon saying they were more than happy to pay it, and were surprised it was removed.
At the end of the day though, it's all about personal circumstance isn't it.
My season ticket pal struggles massively to pony the current fee up in one go, whereas a lot wouldn't even blink if they raised it £50
At a time when there’s so much positivity around the club, I find the posts by Aloysius deeply depressing. Of course he is entitled to an opinion, but let’s not confuse opinion with facts. Aloysius has assumed that the majority of Legacy members who voted yes did so without a second thought and failed to examine all the facts. What evidence does he have to make that claim?
He infers that those members who-unlike him-attended meetings, asked questions and perhaps met the Couhigs in person, know ‘next to nothing about the man who’s bought the club’. Another assumption.
He says Mr.Couhig ‘did not make himself available for scrutiny after the deal was announced’. He has been available for scrutiny throughout the entire process and made a decision not to attend the final Legacy members meeting because he had already presented his case and felt that his presence would be inappropriate. He is also dealing with a close family bereavement.
Aloysius makes a further assumption that Mr.Couhig might not have the finances to support the club if his plans don’t work out. Like Aloysius, I have no idea how wealthy Mr.Couhig is, but he’s already pledged circa £3m which suggests that he can back up his words with hard cash.
As for stating that we might disagree with some of his decisions, I found that refreshingly honest but perhaps Aloysius would have preferred Mr.Couhig to have come out with more ‘platitudinous claptrap’, the phrase he used to describe the new owner’s email and social media messages.
@davecz said:
Unfortunately some people still live in a parallel universe were fan run clubs prosper, make profit every year and don’t need outside support. Probably still believe in unicorns!!! It would great if that world existed but it doesn’t. Fortunately Legacy members live in the real world and voted for the deal. I’m sure many with a heavy hard but realise it was the best way forward for our club. Now is the time to move forward.
Is the German Bundesliga a parallel universe?
I've been to games over there. I feel like Lyra Belacqua.
@Chickenhead said:
Like to see you live on £167 pounds a week. Username.
I'm assuming that's the state pension, not everyone is on that, I'm sure anyone on minimum wage and rent to pay probably has less than that to spend a week.
Not saying pensioners are loaded, just that they're no worse on (on average) than those at the start of their working careers with silly rents / mortgages to pay
1) Because historically OAPs were significantly poorer than workers - the pension has risen more than wages, without getting into rent / house prices (yes I know not every old person got a house for £10 but we're talking in generalisations here)
2) It would be unpopular to remove it
3) As in politics, generally it's older people making the decisions and having the power.
Means testing would obviously be ideal but not feasible.
Comments
@PrinceOfCrowell it's not sour grapes, I fully understand and respect why I don't have a vote. I'm just amazed that those who do can be so cavalier with theirs.
We know next to nothing about the man who's bought the club other than how much he loves it (having had a bid for one club fall through, being rejected by Wycombe initially and then being literally on his way to scope out another club when Wycombe called begging for a bridging loan).
We've just endured a regime which - to say the least - has lacked transparency, only to jump into the arms of someone who did not make himself available for scrutiny after the draft terms of the deal were announced. Someone who has yet to convince (me, at least) that he has the finances to subsidise the club if his plan (so far just a hazy skeleton plan) does not work out. And someone whose first announcement on purchasing the club was to give notice that we are likely to profoundly disagree with some of his decisions about running it in the future.
But yeah, he's a wanderer.
Whilst I agree with everything above @aloysius I’m under the impression that it was the Supporters Trust who didn’t want to send out the 50 page document electronically and didn’t want Rob there for scrutiny.
Cavalier @aloysius?
The problem I had was there was no counter proposal, nothing except a couple of pie in the sky ideas floated on here.
One unbelievably relied on potential bidders paying to keep the club afloat as a prerequisite to enter by bidding process, something I’m not sure is legal apart from being highly speculative with the clubs immediate future. How’s that for cavalier .
In the meantime I have our trust board who represent us as a fan owned club hands on communal heart telling us that a vote against would be an extinction event.
We have the granddaughter of Frank Adams and representative of the Frank Adams trust asking us to support the bid.
All the supporting evidence given shows that we would struggle in the short and medium term with a debt burden and would have to make swingeing cuts immediately and the deal while not perfect keeps a percentage of fan ownership.
There is a a good argument that the trust board has failed by putting us in the position we were and that new talented people need to stand for election but to call our decision cavalier is unfair and yes sour grapes.
Appreciate both @aloysius's considered exposition and @BuckinghamBlue's equally well-judged response. If we take out the "cavalier" adjective, we have a valuable discussion that prompts constructive thought, so thanks!
For all the criticisms, many of them valid, of recent processes, the trust board, Rob Couhig, the legacy members, Facebook, the Gasroom, and the state of the crisps, you never, ever hear anyone put forward anything remotely resembling an alternative to Rob’s takeover.
Maybe if things had been done differently starting about 6 years ago, we could have remained trust owned, or sold the club to someone with a process or owner more to everyone’s liking.
Maybe all our books would be in the black if we’d somehow found all these other far more qualified trust board members, apparently just waiting in the wings for their chance to fix all the clubs’ woes trust, who couldn’t get a look in according to an unfalsifiable conspiracy theory.
But the vote has been passed, and passed by an overwhelmingly majority. If you want to sit and throw your toys out the pram, that’s entirely up to you. But it seems deeply unproductive to me.
@drcongo - 2018 figures show Exeter £4.5m in debt . Sustainable??
@OxfordBlue ..."unverifiable" conspiracy theory?
The major bone of contention will, I believe, come around ticket prices.
He said at the very first meeting that they would be going up
If we could sneak into the championship, that'd go through without even a murmur.
If not though, there will be some moans of course.
Both work.
I've thought for a while that £16 (in advance) to stand on the terrace is too cheap for League One football (certainly compared with other clubs), even if it has helped to make that the busiest part of the ground. My mates who support other clubs (at a range of levels) can never believe how cheap my terrace season ticket is either. I guess it'll become more controversial if they start taking away the kids' freebies and OAP discounts.
Unless we start getting to the point where the free kids seats are " costing " us money as we're selling out, I can't see those going, it's such an obvious way to get new supporters.
Think plenty of people will be fine with removing OAP discounts, on average pensioners have more disposable income than workers under 30...
I expect ticket prices will go up, hopefully not by much though.
@Steve_Peart When you asked for the colours to be included in the enshrined rights, as you mentioned earlier in the thread, did you get a response confirming that they would be, or is this still a pending question?
It’s years since ticket prices went up isn’t it despite promotion, improving matchday experience, several exciting additions to the playing squad and the highest position in the Football League since we joined a quarter of a century ago. Coincidentally, I became a pensioner around the same time (though not a State Pensioner until eight years later). I would have no objection whatsoever to, say, a 5-10% increase in the cost of my season ticket - more, of course, if/when we make the Championship..
The apparent sustainability of Exeter City has surely been a short-term phenomenon resulting from substantial transfer fees and highly remunerative Cup runs. A bubble, considerably larger than the one we experienced a few seasons ago and, it would appear, about to burst.
Parallel universe's tend to run youth academies! Exeter have sold well over £5m worth of young players in the last 4 years.
That's fairly unsustainable to continue doing though.
@LeedsBlue, David Smith said that the addition of the colours clause will be taken up with Rob Couhig. Whether we get feedback on that remains to be seen.
David told me that there are no plans at present for legacy members to see the final document, and that in a general corporate context it would be unusual to do this. The approval resolution is based on the draft agreement and the summary sent to members, but a decision on final document viewing by members will be taken up with the Trust board, and with Feliciana.
I am concerned that, if the wording is not correct on the voting form, then the final agreement document may also not be correct, in terms of an oversight.
Like to see you live on £167 pounds a week. Username.
Don't start this one again for friggery's sake, or Dev will steam in saying how all pensioners are so loaded, it's a myth any of them actually live on the breadline!
Wasn't the last price increase when we went up? They smuggled it through based on that!
What they could very easily do, is re-introduce that premium on the centre block on the Frank Adams. I remember a few peeps like @Tory_Goon saying they were more than happy to pay it, and were surprised it was removed.
At the end of the day though, it's all about personal circumstance isn't it.
My season ticket pal struggles massively to pony the current fee up in one go, whereas a lot wouldn't even blink if they raised it £50
At a time when there’s so much positivity around the club, I find the posts by Aloysius deeply depressing. Of course he is entitled to an opinion, but let’s not confuse opinion with facts. Aloysius has assumed that the majority of Legacy members who voted yes did so without a second thought and failed to examine all the facts. What evidence does he have to make that claim?
He infers that those members who-unlike him-attended meetings, asked questions and perhaps met the Couhigs in person, know ‘next to nothing about the man who’s bought the club’. Another assumption.
He says Mr.Couhig ‘did not make himself available for scrutiny after the deal was announced’. He has been available for scrutiny throughout the entire process and made a decision not to attend the final Legacy members meeting because he had already presented his case and felt that his presence would be inappropriate. He is also dealing with a close family bereavement.
Aloysius makes a further assumption that Mr.Couhig might not have the finances to support the club if his plans don’t work out. Like Aloysius, I have no idea how wealthy Mr.Couhig is, but he’s already pledged circa £3m which suggests that he can back up his words with hard cash.
As for stating that we might disagree with some of his decisions, I found that refreshingly honest but perhaps Aloysius would have preferred Mr.Couhig to have come out with more ‘platitudinous claptrap’, the phrase he used to describe the new owner’s email and social media messages.
Is the German Bundesliga a parallel universe?
I've been to games over there. I feel like Lyra Belacqua.
I think it probably is.
Yes, because it has league rules around private ownership.
I'm assuming that's the state pension, not everyone is on that, I'm sure anyone on minimum wage and rent to pay probably has less than that to spend a week.
Not saying pensioners are loaded, just that they're no worse on (on average) than those at the start of their working careers with silly rents / mortgages to pay
So genuine question @Username , why do all clubs offer an OAP reduction?
That has to be based on some logic.
1) Because historically OAPs were significantly poorer than workers - the pension has risen more than wages, without getting into rent / house prices (yes I know not every old person got a house for £10 but we're talking in generalisations here)
2) It would be unpopular to remove it
3) As in politics, generally it's older people making the decisions and having the power.
Means testing would obviously be ideal but not feasible.
I think I must have moved into a parallel universe this morning having given Mr Parry's last post a thumbs up!!
What sort of age are you out of interest @Username
Not quite 30 yet