My view for what it’s worth is that the delay is for reasons that relate to the bid and not down to other business. The latter could easily be put to bed with a “Hey we’re still keen but we had a funeral, illness, son got married in Vegas last week” announcement. The Machiavellian scheme to raise anxiety to get the vote they want may be true but I’m going with the concerns about league 1 survival. The Americans aren’t fools and I’m sure have a business plan that as it came to together for presentation was tailored to beginning in league 1. After all, a few months ago another season in league 1 seemed, if not assured, highly likely. Whether they pull out or come back with a revised deal for a league 2 start I wouldn’t like to say but if they stay in I’d wager the offer we get depends on where we are next season.
And as for remaining supporter owned. If the bid is dead or is voted down will the board stay on? I suspect many will not, whether due to no confidence votes or having had enough. Whilst I’m sure there is some expertise out there that may save some money I don’t think a part-time volunteer group drafted in rapidly will be able to save six figure sums/increase revenues overnight or even over a season. I’m not sure they’ll ever be able to do it.
The more I think on this, the more concerned I am. If we have a bid to vote on and it isn’t convincing/is obvious asset stripping/blackmail or smells like bullshit I’ll vote no but I think I’ll be doing so knowing the consequence will be that WWFC as it Is know may cease to exist.
Appreciate that but is it reason to relinquish Trust ownership?
Where in there did I say it was? I do believe under either ownership structure the running of a football club of our size is a near impossible and thankless job
You didn't say that sir. Fair play it certainly is
I don’t know enough about how those other clubs operate to answer your question. I know that Exeter have made a substantial amount of money by selling ‘home produced’ players to bigger clubs and Wimbledon have had the revenue from some big cup ties but you could say the same about WWFC. It is, of course, possible that both clubs enjoy some level of investment from wealthy supporters that we don’t know about.
Exeter were just about bankrupt just over four years ago with their player salaries being paid by the PFA. Then Swansea paid £1.75m for Matt Grimes and in the last four years have raised a reported £4m from selling Ampadu, Norburn, Watkins and Nichols.
Their ground development was paid for by selling land for student flats.
Aye, there's the rub! We have to go for the best solution for our particular circumstances, be that full Trust ownership, outside investment/ownership/control or some sort of combination.
Like many on the Gasroom, I know several Board members reasonably well and I am still fully convinced that they want only the best for the club and do everything in their power to try to achieve this. I'm in awe of the time and effort they give for all our benefit and in general they posess many skills to support the club business. I await the next rush to join the board and give 50 or 60 unpaid hours a week to the club.
Well said Valley Wanderer. Whatever their failings, these guys devote so much time and effort for such little reward and they deserve more respect. Let those who think they can do a better job stand up and be counted.
Yes, that had me in Countdown mode for a second or two. But I hope Trust Board members, especially those in full-time employment, are not giving 50 or 60 hours of their time to the club every week. If so, that might explain why things are not so rosy. But I think the majority (if not all) genuinely have the club’s interests, rather than their own, at heart.
I tend to agree with @Guppys_Left_Leg that running a football club of our size is a near impossible and frequently thankless task.
On the question of how AFC Wimbledon survive financially (and more than likely will also do so as a third tier club) I’m sure I’ve read or heard that they have a benefactor. I think it is the Chairman but I’m open to correction on that. What we do know for sure of course is that they made a million or two from their FA Cup run. Football Fortune indeed.
Another thing that seems evident is that the stability of being fan owned (and therefore more likely to show loyalty to manager) has all three clubs pretty much punching above our weight, and upwardly mobile in L2/lower half of L1.
@micra the smartest thing our current board have done is invent the phrase 'football fortune.' a phrase that was repeated a mental amount of times at the last AGM. One of the worst things they have done is assume we are gullible idiots
Thinking about it one of the smartest things the current board have done is giving trust in Gareth to manage the team. Genuine respect to the Board for this. May Ainsworth reign for ever and ever more imho
@glasshalffull said:
Do you honestly believe that having a different set of people in charge would turn a substantial deficit into a profit or even a break even scenario?
That’s an interesting viewpoint Alan. So, you think if the Americans bid goes through and they replace the people at the top with their own people we still have no hope of turning around the deficit? And, of course, their people would be salaried and the club would have an extra £3m “investment” / debt that would need to be repaid. You make it sound like accepting the American bid would put us in a position we could never even hope to get out of. Thanks for your honesty.
That is mischievous Dr.Congo, you’ve taken my quote out of context. I was referring to a different set of people drawn from the current Trust membership. They would just inherit the same problems unless, of course, they offered to invest their own money in the club as the Americans have offered to do.
The underlying question is how does the investment of money turn us from a position of making large year on year losses, to making enough profit to provide a return on that investment. It’s not like the money can go towards buying a new factory or developing new products which will improve the fortunes of the business in the future. We’ll be the same club doing the same things we always were, but with more money to spend on player wages, increasing rather than decreasing the annual deficit. The only route out I can see is promotion to the Championship, but how realistic is that as an aim? And what could be lost in chasing that goal?
The alternative is continuing with fan ownership, which doesn’t appear to be sustainable.
I really don’t see a way out. It’s not a Wycombe problem, as demonstrated by the number of lower league clubs in financial difficulties. It’s a football problem. Wages out (plus other costs) in order to compete are higher than income in. At some point things will have to change.
There are 1200 Trust members. To my knowledge they haven't received an email asking what their expertise and experience is in and how they can help the club run.
If worst comes to the worst (and I will reserve judgment until I see a bid from investors) that would seem a place to start.
I think Chris has summed up football’s bigger picture perfectly. However, the problems at WWFC could certainly be eased by substantial investment. Spent wisely, it could enable us to acquire quality players which could lead to more success and a consequent rise in attendances (I see no reason why reaching the Championship is an impossible dream under these circumstances).
Investment would also enable the club to improve facilities and services at Adams Park, leading to improved match day income. More staff could be employed to ease the pressure on the hard working people we have there now and improve overall performance.
Of course there are potential downsides to allowing outsiders to take control, (that has been debated on here ad infinitum) but I’ve yet to see a realistic alternative.
Reaching the Championship would increase the need for even more annual income, and with a ground with a 9600 capacity it is unlikely that the additional income would materialise unless even more funds were introduced to provide a larger Stadium, which would probably be no greater than 12500, which is not a very large increase.
@wformation said:
Reaching the Championship would increase the need for even more annual income, and with a ground with a 9600 capacity it is unlikely that the additional income would materialise unless even more funds were introduced to provide a larger Stadium, which would probably be no greater than 12500, which is not a very large increase.
I may have made this up completely, but aren't their planning rules preventing any further substantial expansion of Adams Park anyway?
@glasshalffull - So you are basically saying we either carry on supporter owned (I accept this may lead us to a lower level in the pyramid) or "chase the dream" of getting to the supposed El Dorado of the Championship by throwing vast sums of money via investment of a third party.
How you can casually say investment would enable us to acquire quality players AND improve facilities AND improve services AND employ more staff is surprising for a man with such football knowledge. The amount of investment required to achieve all that would be incredible and a huge gamble for the survival of our club. Notts County have tried this, do you honestly want to end up in their position?
"Investment" by definition means providing money with the intention of making a profit. How many investors make money out of football ? Our only hope is to rely on "football fortune" or try and find a wealthy benefactor which every club is looking for. Even with the latter, clubs now have to have regard to the FFP Rules.
Sunderland's annual wage bill is currently in excess of £20m and they are still not exactly strolling to promotion from this division. How much "investment" would we need to get out of this division AND become a financially stable Championship Club?
I for one would not be prepared to take such a gamble with my club's future. I await your usual response that I am talking a load of bollox.
@Right_in_the_ @glasshalffull said:
I think Chris has summed up football’s bigger picture perfectly. However, the problems at WWFC could certainly be eased by substantial investment. Spent wisely, it could enable us to acquire quality players which could lead to more success and a consequent rise in attendances (I see no reason why reaching the Championship is an impossible dream under these circumstances).
Investment would also enable the club to improve facilities and services at Adams Park, leading to improved match day income. More staff could be employed to ease the pressure on the hard working people we have there now and improve overall performance.
Of course there are potential downsides to allowing outsiders to take control, (that has been debated on here ad infinitum) but I’ve yet to see a realistic alternative.
This sums up most of what is wrong with league football currently . If we listen and go down the path you suggest we risk being the next Notts county , Bolton , Billericay.
Blow any new investment “to acquire quality player which could lead to new success and a consequent rise in attendances”....
Comments
My view for what it’s worth is that the delay is for reasons that relate to the bid and not down to other business. The latter could easily be put to bed with a “Hey we’re still keen but we had a funeral, illness, son got married in Vegas last week” announcement. The Machiavellian scheme to raise anxiety to get the vote they want may be true but I’m going with the concerns about league 1 survival. The Americans aren’t fools and I’m sure have a business plan that as it came to together for presentation was tailored to beginning in league 1. After all, a few months ago another season in league 1 seemed, if not assured, highly likely. Whether they pull out or come back with a revised deal for a league 2 start I wouldn’t like to say but if they stay in I’d wager the offer we get depends on where we are next season.
And as for remaining supporter owned. If the bid is dead or is voted down will the board stay on? I suspect many will not, whether due to no confidence votes or having had enough. Whilst I’m sure there is some expertise out there that may save some money I don’t think a part-time volunteer group drafted in rapidly will be able to save six figure sums/increase revenues overnight or even over a season. I’m not sure they’ll ever be able to do it.
The more I think on this, the more concerned I am. If we have a bid to vote on and it isn’t convincing/is obvious asset stripping/blackmail or smells like bullshit I’ll vote no but I think I’ll be doing so knowing the consequence will be that WWFC as it Is know may cease to exist.
Just like to point out one thing. The first approach to/from the Americans came whilst we we were still a League Two outfit.
You didn't say that sir. Fair play it certainly is
True. Which suggests they will still bid for us in league 2. But I bet they want to know where we’ll be next season before they do.
@glasshalffull you ask whether we believe that another Board could really make the club financially sustainable.
This suggests that you feel its impossible whoever does it.
However both Exeter City and AFC Wimbledon are trust owned and have operated relatively successfully for a number of seasons.
Genuinely interested to know if there’s something fundamentally different about the way Wycombe operate that makes us different to those clubs?
I don’t know enough about how those other clubs operate to answer your question. I know that Exeter have made a substantial amount of money by selling ‘home produced’ players to bigger clubs and Wimbledon have had the revenue from some big cup ties but you could say the same about WWFC. It is, of course, possible that both clubs enjoy some level of investment from wealthy supporters that we don’t know about.
I don’t know about Wimbledon either.
Exeter were just about bankrupt just over four years ago with their player salaries being paid by the PFA. Then Swansea paid £1.75m for Matt Grimes and in the last four years have raised a reported £4m from selling Ampadu, Norburn, Watkins and Nichols.
Their ground development was paid for by selling land for student flats.
Not sure they are an example we can follow.
@DevC - Did Exeter receive your expert planning advice to aid them getting planning consent for the student flats?
Aye, there's the rub! We have to go for the best solution for our particular circumstances, be that full Trust ownership, outside investment/ownership/control or some sort of combination.
Like many on the Gasroom, I know several Board members reasonably well and I am still fully convinced that they want only the best for the club and do everything in their power to try to achieve this. I'm in awe of the time and effort they give for all our benefit and in general they posess many skills to support the club business. I await the next rush to join the board and give 50 or 60 unpaid hours a week to the club.
Well said Valley Wanderer. Whatever their failings, these guys devote so much time and effort for such little reward and they deserve more respect. Let those who think they can do a better job stand up and be counted.
I think there is enough business acumen among the constituents of this forum. Is the vote of no confidence still a runner?
Well, that’s an interesting observation. I wonder how many posters would be prepared to serve on the Trust board?
@ValleyWanderer @Glasshalffull 50 to 60 hours unpaid work at the club seems rather over the top. there are only 188 hours in a week.
168 actually when I went to school.
Yes, that had me in Countdown mode for a second or two. But I hope Trust Board members, especially those in full-time employment, are not giving 50 or 60 hours of their time to the club every week. If so, that might explain why things are not so rosy. But I think the majority (if not all) genuinely have the club’s interests, rather than their own, at heart.
I tend to agree with @Guppys_Left_Leg that running a football club of our size is a near impossible and frequently thankless task.
On the question of how AFC Wimbledon survive financially (and more than likely will also do so as a third tier club) I’m sure I’ve read or heard that they have a benefactor. I think it is the Chairman but I’m open to correction on that. What we do know for sure of course is that they made a million or two from their FA Cup run. Football Fortune indeed.
Another thing that seems evident is that the stability of being fan owned (and therefore more likely to show loyalty to manager) has all three clubs pretty much punching above our weight, and upwardly mobile in L2/lower half of L1.
@Shev a good point. List the high profile managers Notts county have had since Gareth started doing his stuff at Wycombe...
@micra the smartest thing our current board have done is invent the phrase 'football fortune.' a phrase that was repeated a mental amount of times at the last AGM. One of the worst things they have done is assume we are gullible idiots
Thinking about it one of the smartest things the current board have done is giving trust in Gareth to manage the team. Genuine respect to the Board for this. May Ainsworth reign for ever and ever more imho
Can’t argue with that @LX1.
That’s an interesting viewpoint Alan. So, you think if the Americans bid goes through and they replace the people at the top with their own people we still have no hope of turning around the deficit? And, of course, their people would be salaried and the club would have an extra £3m “investment” / debt that would need to be repaid. You make it sound like accepting the American bid would put us in a position we could never even hope to get out of. Thanks for your honesty.
That is mischievous Dr.Congo, you’ve taken my quote out of context. I was referring to a different set of people drawn from the current Trust membership. They would just inherit the same problems unless, of course, they offered to invest their own money in the club as the Americans have offered to do.
The underlying question is how does the investment of money turn us from a position of making large year on year losses, to making enough profit to provide a return on that investment. It’s not like the money can go towards buying a new factory or developing new products which will improve the fortunes of the business in the future. We’ll be the same club doing the same things we always were, but with more money to spend on player wages, increasing rather than decreasing the annual deficit. The only route out I can see is promotion to the Championship, but how realistic is that as an aim? And what could be lost in chasing that goal?
The alternative is continuing with fan ownership, which doesn’t appear to be sustainable.
I really don’t see a way out. It’s not a Wycombe problem, as demonstrated by the number of lower league clubs in financial difficulties. It’s a football problem. Wages out (plus other costs) in order to compete are higher than income in. At some point things will have to change.
It was one of the points that really jarred in that initial meeting:
"Pretty much all football league clubs are in financial difficulty"
"We need to change in order to be the same as pretty much all other football league clubs"
There are 1200 Trust members. To my knowledge they haven't received an email asking what their expertise and experience is in and how they can help the club run.
If worst comes to the worst (and I will reserve judgment until I see a bid from investors) that would seem a place to start.
I think Chris has summed up football’s bigger picture perfectly. However, the problems at WWFC could certainly be eased by substantial investment. Spent wisely, it could enable us to acquire quality players which could lead to more success and a consequent rise in attendances (I see no reason why reaching the Championship is an impossible dream under these circumstances).
Investment would also enable the club to improve facilities and services at Adams Park, leading to improved match day income. More staff could be employed to ease the pressure on the hard working people we have there now and improve overall performance.
Of course there are potential downsides to allowing outsiders to take control, (that has been debated on here ad infinitum) but I’ve yet to see a realistic alternative.
Reaching the Championship would increase the need for even more annual income, and with a ground with a 9600 capacity it is unlikely that the additional income would materialise unless even more funds were introduced to provide a larger Stadium, which would probably be no greater than 12500, which is not a very large increase.
I may have made this up completely, but aren't their planning rules preventing any further substantial expansion of Adams Park anyway?
@glasshalffull - So you are basically saying we either carry on supporter owned (I accept this may lead us to a lower level in the pyramid) or "chase the dream" of getting to the supposed El Dorado of the Championship by throwing vast sums of money via investment of a third party.
How you can casually say investment would enable us to acquire quality players AND improve facilities AND improve services AND employ more staff is surprising for a man with such football knowledge. The amount of investment required to achieve all that would be incredible and a huge gamble for the survival of our club. Notts County have tried this, do you honestly want to end up in their position?
"Investment" by definition means providing money with the intention of making a profit. How many investors make money out of football ? Our only hope is to rely on "football fortune" or try and find a wealthy benefactor which every club is looking for. Even with the latter, clubs now have to have regard to the FFP Rules.
Sunderland's annual wage bill is currently in excess of £20m and they are still not exactly strolling to promotion from this division. How much "investment" would we need to get out of this division AND become a financially stable Championship Club?
I for one would not be prepared to take such a gamble with my club's future. I await your usual response that I am talking a load of bollox.
This sums up most of what is wrong with league football currently . If we listen and go down the path you suggest we risk being the next Notts county , Bolton , Billericay.
Blow any new investment “to acquire quality player which could lead to new success and a consequent rise in attendances”....
Jesus wept..