@Vital said:
So, taking the proposed sale in 2016 into account, this is the second time we've been told the Trust board has found the 'right people' to 'invest' only for the owners-elect to pull out at the last minute.
Maybe a fresh set of eyes should scrutinise the next potential bidders.
Fresh set of eyes? Many fresh sets. In fact, the whole bloody lot. Not an ounce of business acumen between them. They are all has-beens, and what they were in their heyday did not amount to much. We need a real chairman and a real board - not just a load of retirees pursuing a hobby. This is meant to be a professsional business, not the Rotary Club.
Before this inevitably turns into Armageddon just wanted to say its better they lose interest now than when they are owners.
We are going to need to step up a bit here with time and money at least in the short term to keep the place ticking over and I'm sure sone people think that is probably the best model anyway.
so following L1 survival, the power group resign, marlowchair takes over, re-structures and streamlines the business, renegotiates or puts out to tender all contracts, gets in more local sponsors, better beer and crisps. Calm down people...
How anyone can blame Andrew Harman for this shower of sh*te is beyond me. The Trust Board are solely to blame. IF the trust director responsible for giving an overview of his bid had not undervalued it, then the yanks bid might have become irrelevant on the basis that they choose AH instead. Many people, myself included always felt no matter what given they had borrowed £500,000 from the yanks, The Trust Board would only back the USA bid and so it proved. We never ever got to see the bid did we, despite all the promises so why was that? In my opinion Trevor needs to step down, Andrew Harman will not want to come back with him in charge for sure and who can blame him.
Factually incorrect there @HG1. It was not a director who undervalued the bid incorrectly. AH himself said that "vital paperwork relating to his offer was not made available to the board" due his his error.
@HG1 . id imagine a lot will blame Harman as before he burst onto the scene we had a proposal that the trust seemed happy with.
Once he'd forced his hand with that splinter meeting, it delayed every thing and then he pulled out himself. Cheesing the Americans off and arguably not unreasonably so.
Does this make the next 5 games even more important than they were before? A League One club are certainly a much more appealing investment opportunity than a financially troubled League Two club, in amongst other financially troubled League Two clubs... What a ridiculous episode this all is.
@Twizz said:
Factually incorrect there @HG1. It was not a director who undervalued the bid incorrectly. AH himself said that "vital paperwork relating to his offer was not made available to the board" due his his error.
You are factually incorrect, if you don't believe me ask the trust for a direct answer to this question.
@Malone said: @HG1 . id imagine a lot will blame Harman as before he burst onto the scene we had a proposal that the trust seemed happy with.
Once he'd forced his hand with that splinter meeting, it delayed every thing and then he pulled out himself. Cheesing the Americans off and arguably not unreasonably so.
What a carry on.
a lot of people, who don't know the facts will blame him but the trust know the truth and they know they have handled this badly. I really do expect resignations over this and it really should be from the directors who supported the American bid knowing the alternative bid had been undervalued by one of their own and choose to overlook it. They backed the wrong horse
@OxfordBlue said:
It seems the only thing everyone can agree on is that the entire thing has been a shambles, which is really sad for the club.
That is why we urgently need a new Chairman (even If it is from the existing Board) to oversee a professional and comprehensive re-examination of the options we have. Alan Cecil perhaps?
If the investment route is found to be essential, then an outside body needs to be appointed to organise a proper tendering procedure and to subsequently carefully carry out checks on all interested parties and then deliver their recommendations to the Board.
I know I have raised this point before but it is relevant now more than ever, we owe £500,000 plus interest due back at the end of the year to the Americans who have a charge on our stadium. Trevor dismissed our fears when the matter of the charge was raised at the previous aborted meeting saying don't worry if the American's are not successful in their bid the other bidder will settle this. Given Andrew Harman is no longer bidding, I wonder if he is so relaxed now about the mess they have got us into. The 5 year plan was for league 1 football and it seems when we got there, we gambled on the sale of the club to afford it unless we had "football fortune" which as we all know you cannot rely on. Was anyone told previously this was the plan for the price of league 1 football?
@HG1 , Written like that, it seems like one heck of a presumption that we'd definitely proceed with one of the two bidders!
And that "the other" bidder would just be happy to see 500k of his money taken up outside of his actual plans?!
Members of the current board persuaded Mr Harman to put a bid in as the goal posts had changed. Presumably they were not to confident or comfortable with the American bid.
Those in the power group need to start answering some questions.
This debate clearly hinges on the level of investment and at this moment we don’t know what that could be. Obviously, if it’s a modest amount then it has to be spent on clearing our debts first and more ambitious plans would have to be put on ice.
If, however, the investment is more substantial it could enable us to recruit better players. You’d be surprised by how many players in the lower leagues would be prepared to move clubs for a fairly modest increase in wages.
Having better players gives you a greater chance of success and success on the field would surely lead to increased income through gate receipts.
I didn’t say this could be achieved overnight but it’s obvious that a successful club will attract more revenue that can be used to improve its infrastructure.
People mention Notts County, Bolton etc but choose to ignore other examples where outside investment has worked.
Burton Albion, Rotherham, Bournemouth and Brentford are recent examples of clubs similar to Wycombe in terms of ground capacity and average attendances who achieved Championship status thanks to outside investment.
I would be as concerned as anyone else about gambling the club’s future, but what do people not understand about the Trust board’s warning that the present model is unsustainable?
Because it is the turkeys saying that Xmas dinner isn’t sustainable.
It is self measurement. They are no doubt honest in their assessment and belief that they have given it the best shot and their belief that if it can’t be sustained under their watch then it’s not possible.
But surely anyone else can see that logic and assessment is bias and flawed. None of us are good self critics.
It goes back to the basics. As an organisation with our current board and paid general manager in place we are failing on many basics. I don’t need to go over them again we have heard the complaints for a long time.
How anyone can argue that “ we’ve tried to run it sustainably but can’t, and no one can if we can’t” is a legitimate argument when we can’t grind out a basic level of operational standards , is absolutely garbage.
@Wendoverman said:
so following L1 survival, the power group resign, marlowchair takes over, re-structures and streamlines the business, renegotiates or puts out to tender all contracts, gets in more local sponsors, better beer and crisps. Calm down people...
Look up mate - there's a flying pig about to crap on you...
@Malone said: @HG1 , Written like that, it seems like one heck of a presumption that we'd definitely proceed with one of the two bidders!
And that "the other" bidder would just be happy to see 500k of his money taken up outside of his actual plans?!
Taken directly from the trust website, entry date 06/02 so for their part there were clear and also relaxed and there was nothing to worry about.
Q) If you go with the minority stake option, could the Trust accept this without a vote?
A) The rules provide that a majority sale requires 75% approval from Legacy Members. There is nothing to say that a minority sale requires any vote/approval. There is a provision that if a significant change is made to the club, the Trust should seek to run a ballot of members.
Trevor Stroud then continued with his presentation, relating to the loan which has been taken out with Bill Luby and Jim Collis, which resulted in a charge being placed on the stadium as security for the loan.
The key points from the slides are as follows:
– A bridge loan was required due to the critical cashflow situation through November and December (which was eased in January due to solidarity payments from the EFL). Bill and Jim were approached and the response was quick and supportive.
– The loan came in two tranches; the first was definitely required, the second was dependent on ‘football fortune’. Once the club had exited both the FA Cup and Checkatrade Trophy in November, the second tranche was required. While the first tranche carried a charge on the club, the second carried a charge on Adams Park.
– These details were not communicated due to the commercial sensitivity of declaring the financial position amidst negotiations with sponsors and players
– If Bill and Jim are successful, their loan will be transferred to equity, and the charge will be lifted
– If Bill and Jim are unsuccessful, the loan will be repaid by the new investor, and the charge will be lifted
The really pertinent part of that statement comes at the end. The loan has been deferred until the end of the year. We now have a new date for a cliff-edge Wycxit (nice one Wendover).
That gives us a hard deadline for a sale to Andrew Harman, which is clearly now the most viable option.
Work on that needs to start apace. For it to proceed, one imagines Mr Harman will only negotiate with someone he considers an honest broker.
To that effect, I would expect Trevor Stroud's resignation to be offered - and accepted - ahead of the fans' council meeting tonight.
Because it is the turkeys saying that Xmas dinner isn’t sustainable.
It is self measurement. They are no doubt honest in their assessment and belief that they have given it the best shot and their belief that if it can’t be sustained under their watch then it’s not possible.
But surely anyone else can see that logic and assessment is bias and flawed. None of us are good self critics.
It goes back to the basics. As an organisation with our current board and paid general manager in place we are failing on many basics. I don’t need to go over them again we have heard the complaints for a long time.
How anyone can argue that “ we’ve tried to run it sustainably but can’t, and no one can if we can’t” is a legitimate argument when we can’t grind out a basic level of operational standards , is absolutely garbage.
@marlowchair I'm really, genuinely interested with what you would do to make the club self-sustaining. I'm not saying it couldn't be but back to the main point of my post last night income at our level is very unpredictable and subject to so many external factors most outside the control of anyone (unless you can control the weather!!)
I know within my business what i would need to do to make up an annual shortfall of £600k but I CAN influence both the outgoings and the incomings. Football clubs can only really control outgoings, incomings to a much much lesser extent.
I just don't see how as it stands it is possible to make the savings / increased income required to balance the books.
Before you start on about conference facilities etc do you know that there is a market for them and at what level of profit they could return. Serious question not just a stoking the fire one as I don't know what your job is or what business skills in those areas you have.
With everything else going on with lower league football clubs I do feel that we, (as football supporters) are coming to a crossroads.
The money at the top grows evermore yet the majority of the other 72 are scratching around for scraps that fall from their table.
92 Full-time proffessional clubs, as it stands, are unsustainable in their, and the leagues, current format
If Bill and Jim are unsuccessful, and there is no new investor the er...loan...will...er...well...it will...er...yes the loan...well, I'm glad you asked that question...er
@Wendoverman said:
If Bill and Jim are unsuccessful, and there is no new investor the er...loan...will...er...well...it will...er...yes the loan...well, I'm glad you asked that question...er
Comments
Fresh set of eyes? Many fresh sets. In fact, the whole bloody lot. Not an ounce of business acumen between them. They are all has-beens, and what they were in their heyday did not amount to much. We need a real chairman and a real board - not just a load of retirees pursuing a hobby. This is meant to be a professsional business, not the Rotary Club.
And we are going to get them from where @thebeanmachine ?
Before this inevitably turns into Armageddon just wanted to say its better they lose interest now than when they are owners.
We are going to need to step up a bit here with time and money at least in the short term to keep the place ticking over and I'm sure sone people think that is probably the best model anyway.
so following L1 survival, the power group resign, marlowchair takes over, re-structures and streamlines the business, renegotiates or puts out to tender all contracts, gets in more local sponsors, better beer and crisps. Calm down people...
How anyone can blame Andrew Harman for this shower of sh*te is beyond me. The Trust Board are solely to blame. IF the trust director responsible for giving an overview of his bid had not undervalued it, then the yanks bid might have become irrelevant on the basis that they choose AH instead. Many people, myself included always felt no matter what given they had borrowed £500,000 from the yanks, The Trust Board would only back the USA bid and so it proved. We never ever got to see the bid did we, despite all the promises so why was that? In my opinion Trevor needs to step down, Andrew Harman will not want to come back with him in charge for sure and who can blame him.
Factually incorrect there @HG1. It was not a director who undervalued the bid incorrectly. AH himself said that "vital paperwork relating to his offer was not made available to the board" due his his error.
@HG1 . id imagine a lot will blame Harman as before he burst onto the scene we had a proposal that the trust seemed happy with.
Once he'd forced his hand with that splinter meeting, it delayed every thing and then he pulled out himself. Cheesing the Americans off and arguably not unreasonably so.
What a carry on.
Bad news and I don’t understand why this couldn’t have been announced last week when they cancelled their trip.
Does this make the next 5 games even more important than they were before? A League One club are certainly a much more appealing investment opportunity than a financially troubled League Two club, in amongst other financially troubled League Two clubs... What a ridiculous episode this all is.
@glasshalffull and lose a whole week of vitriolic Gasroom conjecture, insult, and general banging on?
You are factually incorrect, if you don't believe me ask the trust for a direct answer to this question.
We need to stay up this season so that the 12 points deduction for going into administration next year will stuff us completely.
I do wish I wasn’t being serious
It seems the only thing everyone can agree on is that the entire thing has been a shambles, which is really sad for the club.
It’s enough to turn you off your crisps.
a lot of people, who don't know the facts will blame him but the trust know the truth and they know they have handled this badly. I really do expect resignations over this and it really should be from the directors who supported the American bid knowing the alternative bid had been undervalued by one of their own and choose to overlook it. They backed the wrong horse
What does happen now then.
Did the Americans approach us in the first place, or did we put the feelers out?
If it was the former, can we now do the latter?
That is why we urgently need a new Chairman (even If it is from the existing Board) to oversee a professional and comprehensive re-examination of the options we have. Alan Cecil perhaps?
If the investment route is found to be essential, then an outside body needs to be appointed to organise a proper tendering procedure and to subsequently carefully carry out checks on all interested parties and then deliver their recommendations to the Board.
I know I have raised this point before but it is relevant now more than ever, we owe £500,000 plus interest due back at the end of the year to the Americans who have a charge on our stadium. Trevor dismissed our fears when the matter of the charge was raised at the previous aborted meeting saying don't worry if the American's are not successful in their bid the other bidder will settle this. Given Andrew Harman is no longer bidding, I wonder if he is so relaxed now about the mess they have got us into. The 5 year plan was for league 1 football and it seems when we got there, we gambled on the sale of the club to afford it unless we had "football fortune" which as we all know you cannot rely on. Was anyone told previously this was the plan for the price of league 1 football?
@HG1 , Written like that, it seems like one heck of a presumption that we'd definitely proceed with one of the two bidders!
And that "the other" bidder would just be happy to see 500k of his money taken up outside of his actual plans?!
Members of the current board persuaded Mr Harman to put a bid in as the goal posts had changed. Presumably they were not to confident or comfortable with the American bid.
Those in the power group need to start answering some questions.
Because it is the turkeys saying that Xmas dinner isn’t sustainable.
It is self measurement. They are no doubt honest in their assessment and belief that they have given it the best shot and their belief that if it can’t be sustained under their watch then it’s not possible.
But surely anyone else can see that logic and assessment is bias and flawed. None of us are good self critics.
It goes back to the basics. As an organisation with our current board and paid general manager in place we are failing on many basics. I don’t need to go over them again we have heard the complaints for a long time.
How anyone can argue that “ we’ve tried to run it sustainably but can’t, and no one can if we can’t” is a legitimate argument when we can’t grind out a basic level of operational standards , is absolutely garbage.
Look up mate - there's a flying pig about to crap on you...
Anywhere but the retirement home where we found the current shower of shit..
I know you're new around here (as far as I know) @thebeanmachine but look up mate something just flew....whoosh!... over your head.
ah. Irony. Missed that. Next time at least give a newbie a warning....!
Taken directly from the trust website, entry date 06/02 so for their part there were clear and also relaxed and there was nothing to worry about.
Q) If you go with the minority stake option, could the Trust accept this without a vote?
A) The rules provide that a majority sale requires 75% approval from Legacy Members. There is nothing to say that a minority sale requires any vote/approval. There is a provision that if a significant change is made to the club, the Trust should seek to run a ballot of members.
Trevor Stroud then continued with his presentation, relating to the loan which has been taken out with Bill Luby and Jim Collis, which resulted in a charge being placed on the stadium as security for the loan.
The key points from the slides are as follows:
– A bridge loan was required due to the critical cashflow situation through November and December (which was eased in January due to solidarity payments from the EFL). Bill and Jim were approached and the response was quick and supportive.
– The loan came in two tranches; the first was definitely required, the second was dependent on ‘football fortune’. Once the club had exited both the FA Cup and Checkatrade Trophy in November, the second tranche was required. While the first tranche carried a charge on the club, the second carried a charge on Adams Park.
– These details were not communicated due to the commercial sensitivity of declaring the financial position amidst negotiations with sponsors and players
– If Bill and Jim are successful, their loan will be transferred to equity, and the charge will be lifted
– If Bill and Jim are unsuccessful, the loan will be repaid by the new investor, and the charge will be lifted
The really pertinent part of that statement comes at the end. The loan has been deferred until the end of the year. We now have a new date for a cliff-edge Wycxit (nice one Wendover).
That gives us a hard deadline for a sale to Andrew Harman, which is clearly now the most viable option.
Work on that needs to start apace. For it to proceed, one imagines Mr Harman will only negotiate with someone he considers an honest broker.
To that effect, I would expect Trevor Stroud's resignation to be offered - and accepted - ahead of the fans' council meeting tonight.
@marlowchair I'm really, genuinely interested with what you would do to make the club self-sustaining. I'm not saying it couldn't be but back to the main point of my post last night income at our level is very unpredictable and subject to so many external factors most outside the control of anyone (unless you can control the weather!!)
I know within my business what i would need to do to make up an annual shortfall of £600k but I CAN influence both the outgoings and the incomings. Football clubs can only really control outgoings, incomings to a much much lesser extent.
I just don't see how as it stands it is possible to make the savings / increased income required to balance the books.
Before you start on about conference facilities etc do you know that there is a market for them and at what level of profit they could return. Serious question not just a stoking the fire one as I don't know what your job is or what business skills in those areas you have.
With everything else going on with lower league football clubs I do feel that we, (as football supporters) are coming to a crossroads.
The money at the top grows evermore yet the majority of the other 72 are scratching around for scraps that fall from their table.
92 Full-time proffessional clubs, as it stands, are unsustainable in their, and the leagues, current format
If Bill and Jim are unsuccessful, and there is no new investor the er...loan...will...er...well...it will...er...yes the loan...well, I'm glad you asked that question...er
Trevor might become the new Theresa