1) No I am talking about the practicalities. Any business will pay wages first and then those suppliers who can affect future trade second (and to extent he who shouts loudest.)
That is NOT the legal ranking of creditors in insolvency - apart from payroll , pretty much all creditors rank equally including HMRC. In practise though, in a cash flow crisis you pay those who can stop you trading next week first, then those who can stop you trading next month etc etc.
No business including WWFC in a cash flow crisis would prioritise paying HMRC - that would be madness. Marlow is just making it up (as usual)
2) Nobody said that not paying any supplier is a good thing. Marlow did however suggest that utilities were being paid as a low priority. If that is true it is highly likely that todays game will be abandoned at around 815 when it gets dark. Nobody will know though, they will not have been able to buy a ticket etc etc. marlow is just making it up as usual.
3) marlow chose to introduce a term he plainly didn't understand. he got it wrong. Marlow was just making it up as usual.
4) Er, no I haven't. Just pointed out the facts and where Marlow was just making it up as usual.
5) No of course not, but it is traditional that if an accusation is made, then he making the accusation should back that accusation up with evidence. The fact that he hasn't would surely suggest t any reasonable observer that marlow was just making it up as usual.
if sitting/standing next to @glasshalfempty at an association football match could be trial for some...sitting next to @marlowchair at a Trust/Board/Financial review meeting must also qualify as somewhat testing.
HMRC are increasingly happy with the lawyers and winding up orders for Football clubs, they never liked football creditors being prioritised by FA and League rules. Lawyers aren't cheap. It seems perfectly reasonable to prioritise HMRC. They will get their money the easy or the hard way.
Strongest, you can believe what you wish but it is factually nonsense that any business in cash flow trouble will prioritise HMRC. They will not. They will prioritise utilities who otherwise will cut them off next week, and the steward company who will otherwise not provide stewards for the next game etc etc etc.
The reason why you will hear that HMRC has issued winding up orders against football clubs is precisely because cash strapped football clubs have prioritised other suppliers and not paid HMRC for an extended period.
If you want to believe otherwise, go ahead. facts are though that marlow is making up stuff again.
If posters had ignored rmjlondon as many have suggested in the past, this trend would be concentrating on the real issue, namely when is the trust going tp update the members on the current status and long term future of WWFC. The issue of who gets paid is no different at WWFC than almost every business in the country. It is true that HMRC are often the creditor who gets to the end of the queue. We did that in 2013 but maybe the lesson learnt then has moved HMRC up the payment file. Only WWFC can give us that answer. I have noted that previous Marlowchairs comments are closer to the truth than those of rmjlondon. Let's have a win tonight we need something to give us a smile. COYB's
@DevC said:
Strongest, you can believe what you wish but it is factually nonsense that any business in cash flow trouble will prioritise HMRC. They will not. They will prioritise utilities who otherwise will cut them off next week, and the steward company who will otherwise not provide stewards for the next game etc etc etc.
The reason why you will hear that HMRC has issued winding up orders against football clubs is precisely because cash strapped football clubs have prioritised other suppliers and not paid HMRC for an extended period.
If you want to believe otherwise, go ahead. facts are though that marlow is making up stuff again.
So Marlow at least claims to know and has been right on the detail if not the intent a number of times as far as I can see, you have no more idea than I do so I have no idea why you need to bang on with such certainty. Quite possible that they prioritize wages and tax in normal circumstances, and that they dip into that fund or alter plans if needed, or that they are a football club and as such have little regard for or knowledge of best practice, or that its all claptrap. Interesting waffle, nothing more.
It is clear from the board (who may or may not have agendas) and speaking to several people around the club, and with everyone's own eyes that money is tight, other than the "its mine, don't worry about it" sharky years it probably has been for decades though.
1+2) The list of creditors given which we supposedly pay behind HMRC were "creditors , services , trades , suppliers , printers , stationary , utilities". Your assumption that this means we aren't paying our electricity is a big jump. There are plenty of other creditors on that list before getting to our electricity provider. For example, do you think our stationary supplier has more or less power than HMRC to "stop [us] trading next month"? How many football clubs have had winding-up orders issued from HMRC compared to the number Staples or Ryman have handed out?
3) Getting a technical term wrong (but close enough for it to be understandable) is very different to making something up. I hope you aren't serious in not being able to understand this.
4) You stated that something was is made up but then gave a plausible reason why the statement might be correct. Seems an odd thing to do.
5) "Any reasonable observer" might decide that there could be reasons why the exact details/evidence of something untoward can't be shared. Or in fact might see that nobody has asked what evidence there is and so it hasn't been offered up. I understand that one might evaluate the accusation and believe it to be false unless evidence is provided. This is a perfectly reasonable position to take and it may or may not end up being right. However, given this initial position might be wrong it is impossible to say without doubt that the other person is lying.
Personally, I have no idea if what Marlow says is right or not. I've not been keeping a tally of how much has turned out to be right but I've concluded that it is someone in the know and therefore worth listening to the warnings. This doesn't mean I take everything said as fact and can filter out bits which seem to cross the line into a bit of a vendetta.
Your position appears to be a default that everything they say is fabricated. It is your prerogative to think that and I am not going to try change your mind because I know that would be futile. My point is that you are quick to call out personal attacks but seem happy to call someone a liar based on nothing more than your own view (rather than fact).
Right, time to leave the office and get to the match...
Let’s try a little game. You are WWFC accountant. You have £10000 in the bank. You have nowhere to borrow money from. It’s monday and you have a home game on Saturday. You have bills from electricity £8k, your stewards company £2k and an amount due to HMRC of £10k. If you don’t pay electricity, they will cut you off on Friday and your match will be postponed. If you don’t pay stewards, they will not man the match on Saturday and it will therefore be postponed. If you don’t pay HMRC,they will take you to court in a couple of months.
Who would you pay with your £10k. Would you (as Marlow suggests) pay HMRC?
@DevC said:
There is no question money is tight, Strongest.
Let’s try a little game. You are WWFC accountant. You have £10000 in the bank. You have nowhere to borrow money from. It’s monday and you have a home game on Saturday. You have bills from electricity £8k, your stewards company £2k and an amount due to HMRC of £10k. If you don’t pay electricity, they will cut you off on Friday and your match will be postponed. If you don’t pay stewards, they will not man the match on Saturday and it will therefore be postponed. If you don’t pay HMRC,they will take you to court in a couple of months.
Who would you pay with your £10k. Would you (as Marlow suggests) pay HMRC?
Do you have any games that are less dull and pointless. My response and the two below are quite clear. Enjoy your drivel.
Your position appears to be a default that everything they say is fabricated. It is your prerogative to think that and I am not going to try change your mind because I know that would be futile. My point is that you are quick to call out personal attacks but seem happy to call someone a liar based on nothing more than your own view (rather than fact).
@FmG said:
1+2) The list of creditors given which we supposedly pay behind HMRC were "creditors , services , trades , suppliers , printers , stationary , utilities". Your assumption that this means we aren't paying our electricity is a big jump.
What exactly do you think utilities are if not the electricity board.
@DevC said:
There is no question money is tight, Strongest.
Let’s try a little game. You are WWFC accountant. You have £10000 in the bank. You have nowhere to borrow money from. It’s monday and you have a home game on Saturday. You have bills from electricity £8k, your stewards company £2k and an amount due to HMRC of £10k. If you don’t pay electricity, they will cut you off on Friday and your match will be postponed. If you don’t pay stewards, they will not man the match on Saturday and it will therefore be postponed. If you don’t pay HMRC,they will take you to court in a couple of months.
Who would you pay with your £10k. Would you (as Marlow suggests) pay HMRC?
It doesn’t really matter when say Richie claims inside knowledge of the next transfer signing. It’s amusing if essentially harmless.
Marlow’s case is for me different. He and his mates campaign, coinciding with that of Mr Harman, appears to have played a significant role in losing perhaps the best chance WWFC had of surviving as a league club. And yet every post he makes seems to me to consist of mixing a known fact with a load of exaggerations, half truths and often downright lies.
I think in those circumstances , yet more lies should be called out. I don’t think he is harmless in the same way Richie is and the gasroom normally is. I think he has already risked and probably caused very severe harm indeed.
@DevC I have it on good authority that almost all the people who sit around me at least have no idea about never mind post on or care about what's on the Gasroom...thus the damage that @marlowchair may or may not have done to our collective ownership vote blood pressure may well be negligible.
I have heard that if you are a trust member, a season ticket holder the past four years and post on the Gasroom, you get Elite Legacy Status, and get to vote on the flavour of crisps being served in the kiosks.
Normally Wendover, I think you are right. The gasroom is normally almost entirely irrelevant.
In this case, with the insane voting threshold, I don’t think that was the case at all. A handful of votes would be enough to scupper the deal. Marlows campaign played a role in whipping up enough fear and suspicion that I think the trust had no chance but to delay the vote to play out the Harman fiasco. And anyone with any M&A experience will tell you that delay as often as not scuppers the deal.
If the arguments were and are based on fact, fair enough. For me though it’s been a tissue of lies
@glasshalfempty said:
“Ever fallen in love with someone
Ever fallen in love, in love with someone
Ever fallen in love, in love with someone
You shouldn't have fallen in love with?”
Genius! (And a good excuse to dig out* ‘Another Music...’
Our lights are working just fine Dev and I even got hot water in my tea at halftime . All is good I’m the world.
Your utter rubbish posted this afternoon demonstrates a huge lack of understanding about our club, football clubs generally , what is prioritised and why.
No electricity company has , or will cut off supply to a business like ours for overdue payments in years . The litigation of such a move is not worth their reputations and it also ensures they will never get their debt repaid .
Hmrc is prioritised at our club and rightly so. They , more than any creditor have the power to trigger an administration event. We must also warrant to the FA and EFL in our licensing compliance that her majesty is up to date and happy with us.
Our club is failing in many ways , but generally doing the right thing in terms of paying our VAT, PAYE and other compliance obligations is Proudly something we keep up to date on and rightly so.
No surprise perhaps @marlowchair that at a time when the players of the club were striving inspiringly in pursuit of a vital point, watched by fans of the club who could be there or at least for those who couldn’t on Iplayer, you instead at that very moment spent the time composing that pile of utter bollocks.
Yep, we’ll known fact that power companies don’t cut off companies that don’t pay their bills .
And that if they wanted to the cost of “litigation” would be too high.
They just keep on supplying letting the debt grow and grow.
Ho hum
FFS Dev, you constantly post shite & ask pointless questions of posters on here, about a football club you visit once in a blue moon. Be honest you know jack all about the machinations of this football club in reality & are quick to criticise those who clearly have a reasonable, if not large quantum of "in the know" knowledge.
I'll ask you a question then, what is the current status of the USA bid? Please don't answer with a question to deflect.
Ewan
In answer to your post
1) I have NO inside knowledge of the workings of the club - none, nichts, nada. I would never claim to. that would be a lie.
2) as such I dont know the current status of the US bid. My assumption for what it is worth is that at best it is severely wounded and my guess is it is dead. That is mere assumption though - not fact.
3) My assumption is that Marlow does have limited inside information - assumption not fact.
4) My assessment is that he uses snippets of information (often in the public domain) and then spins tissues of lies off that snippet.
5) Were he to take an extreme example to claim that there was a board meeting tomorrow night and that the "power group" had forced through a motion to eat babies, I wouldn't know for sure what had been discussed, but my assessment based on experience without any inside knowledge would be that that claim was nonsensical.
6) My assessment is that not every poster on the gasroom worked/works in business administration and therefore have much knowledge of it.
7) My assessment is that many of marlow's claims about the business of WWFC , based from knowledge of how business works, are as nonsensical as would be the claim in 5)
8) Marlows claim about HMRC is just one of those, as were his claims a couple of days ago, as were in my assessment the vast majority of his claims
9) It is my assessment that normally the gasroom is largely harmless. Given the voting system here, my assessment is that this is not the case in this instance and he and his mates and mr Harman have already done great harm. time may prove me wrong in this assessment, possibly as early as tomorrow.
10) you have a choice of what to believe. There is a danger that marlow has potential to be a "one eyed man" leading the "blind". it is your choice whether to follow or whether to open your eyes.
11) The thumbs down button is located somewhere at the bottom of the page.
@marlowchair provided an answer to my question about Sam Saunders yesterday which included details that aren't in the public domain and I happen to know he was 100% accurate.
Comments
Can everyone bring their torches tonight please
1) No I am talking about the practicalities. Any business will pay wages first and then those suppliers who can affect future trade second (and to extent he who shouts loudest.)
That is NOT the legal ranking of creditors in insolvency - apart from payroll , pretty much all creditors rank equally including HMRC. In practise though, in a cash flow crisis you pay those who can stop you trading next week first, then those who can stop you trading next month etc etc.
No business including WWFC in a cash flow crisis would prioritise paying HMRC - that would be madness. Marlow is just making it up (as usual)
2) Nobody said that not paying any supplier is a good thing. Marlow did however suggest that utilities were being paid as a low priority. If that is true it is highly likely that todays game will be abandoned at around 815 when it gets dark. Nobody will know though, they will not have been able to buy a ticket etc etc. marlow is just making it up as usual.
3) marlow chose to introduce a term he plainly didn't understand. he got it wrong. Marlow was just making it up as usual.
4) Er, no I haven't. Just pointed out the facts and where Marlow was just making it up as usual.
5) No of course not, but it is traditional that if an accusation is made, then he making the accusation should back that accusation up with evidence. The fact that he hasn't would surely suggest t any reasonable observer that marlow was just making it up as usual.
if sitting/standing next to @glasshalfempty at an association football match could be trial for some...sitting next to @marlowchair at a Trust/Board/Financial review meeting must also qualify as somewhat testing.
HMRC are increasingly happy with the lawyers and winding up orders for Football clubs, they never liked football creditors being prioritised by FA and League rules. Lawyers aren't cheap. It seems perfectly reasonable to prioritise HMRC. They will get their money the easy or the hard way.
Strongest, you can believe what you wish but it is factually nonsense that any business in cash flow trouble will prioritise HMRC. They will not. They will prioritise utilities who otherwise will cut them off next week, and the steward company who will otherwise not provide stewards for the next game etc etc etc.
The reason why you will hear that HMRC has issued winding up orders against football clubs is precisely because cash strapped football clubs have prioritised other suppliers and not paid HMRC for an extended period.
If you want to believe otherwise, go ahead. facts are though that marlow is making up stuff again.
If posters had ignored rmjlondon as many have suggested in the past, this trend would be concentrating on the real issue, namely when is the trust going tp update the members on the current status and long term future of WWFC. The issue of who gets paid is no different at WWFC than almost every business in the country. It is true that HMRC are often the creditor who gets to the end of the queue. We did that in 2013 but maybe the lesson learnt then has moved HMRC up the payment file. Only WWFC can give us that answer. I have noted that previous Marlowchairs comments are closer to the truth than those of rmjlondon. Let's have a win tonight we need something to give us a smile. COYB's
So Marlow at least claims to know and has been right on the detail if not the intent a number of times as far as I can see, you have no more idea than I do so I have no idea why you need to bang on with such certainty. Quite possible that they prioritize wages and tax in normal circumstances, and that they dip into that fund or alter plans if needed, or that they are a football club and as such have little regard for or knowledge of best practice, or that its all claptrap. Interesting waffle, nothing more.
It is clear from the board (who may or may not have agendas) and speaking to several people around the club, and with everyone's own eyes that money is tight, other than the "its mine, don't worry about it" sharky years it probably has been for decades though.
1+2) The list of creditors given which we supposedly pay behind HMRC were "creditors , services , trades , suppliers , printers , stationary , utilities". Your assumption that this means we aren't paying our electricity is a big jump. There are plenty of other creditors on that list before getting to our electricity provider. For example, do you think our stationary supplier has more or less power than HMRC to "stop [us] trading next month"? How many football clubs have had winding-up orders issued from HMRC compared to the number Staples or Ryman have handed out?
3) Getting a technical term wrong (but close enough for it to be understandable) is very different to making something up. I hope you aren't serious in not being able to understand this.
4) You stated that something was is made up but then gave a plausible reason why the statement might be correct. Seems an odd thing to do.
5) "Any reasonable observer" might decide that there could be reasons why the exact details/evidence of something untoward can't be shared. Or in fact might see that nobody has asked what evidence there is and so it hasn't been offered up. I understand that one might evaluate the accusation and believe it to be false unless evidence is provided. This is a perfectly reasonable position to take and it may or may not end up being right. However, given this initial position might be wrong it is impossible to say without doubt that the other person is lying.
Personally, I have no idea if what Marlow says is right or not. I've not been keeping a tally of how much has turned out to be right but I've concluded that it is someone in the know and therefore worth listening to the warnings. This doesn't mean I take everything said as fact and can filter out bits which seem to cross the line into a bit of a vendetta.
Your position appears to be a default that everything they say is fabricated. It is your prerogative to think that and I am not going to try change your mind because I know that would be futile. My point is that you are quick to call out personal attacks but seem happy to call someone a liar based on nothing more than your own view (rather than fact).
Right, time to leave the office and get to the match...
There is no question money is tight, Strongest.
Let’s try a little game. You are WWFC accountant. You have £10000 in the bank. You have nowhere to borrow money from. It’s monday and you have a home game on Saturday. You have bills from electricity £8k, your stewards company £2k and an amount due to HMRC of £10k. If you don’t pay electricity, they will cut you off on Friday and your match will be postponed. If you don’t pay stewards, they will not man the match on Saturday and it will therefore be postponed. If you don’t pay HMRC,they will take you to court in a couple of months.
Who would you pay with your £10k. Would you (as Marlow suggests) pay HMRC?
This is is such a new low that the phrase "a new low" seems woefully inadequate
Do you have any games that are less dull and pointless. My response and the two below are quite clear. Enjoy your drivel.
This
What exactly do you think utilities are if not the electricity board.
believe what you wish to believe.
RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH...RUTH... RUTH... RUTH...RUTH...RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH...RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH...RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH...RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH...RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH...RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH...RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH...RUTH... RUTH... RUTH... RUTH...
Jesus wept.
It’s up to you of course Oxford.
It doesn’t really matter when say Richie claims inside knowledge of the next transfer signing. It’s amusing if essentially harmless.
Marlow’s case is for me different. He and his mates campaign, coinciding with that of Mr Harman, appears to have played a significant role in losing perhaps the best chance WWFC had of surviving as a league club. And yet every post he makes seems to me to consist of mixing a known fact with a load of exaggerations, half truths and often downright lies.
I think in those circumstances , yet more lies should be called out. I don’t think he is harmless in the same way Richie is and the gasroom normally is. I think he has already risked and probably caused very severe harm indeed.
@DevC I have it on good authority that almost all the people who sit around me at least have no idea about never mind post on or care about what's on the Gasroom...thus the damage that @marlowchair may or may not have done to our collective ownership vote blood pressure may well be negligible.
I have heard that if you are a trust member, a season ticket holder the past four years and post on the Gasroom, you get Elite Legacy Status, and get to vote on the flavour of crisps being served in the kiosks.
Normally Wendover, I think you are right. The gasroom is normally almost entirely irrelevant.
In this case, with the insane voting threshold, I don’t think that was the case at all. A handful of votes would be enough to scupper the deal. Marlows campaign played a role in whipping up enough fear and suspicion that I think the trust had no chance but to delay the vote to play out the Harman fiasco. And anyone with any M&A experience will tell you that delay as often as not scuppers the deal.
If the arguments were and are based on fact, fair enough. For me though it’s been a tissue of lies
Genius! (And a good excuse to dig out* ‘Another Music...’
*Or scroll down.
None of us have any idea what is going on @DevC
I will wait and see
Our lights are working just fine Dev and I even got hot water in my tea at halftime . All is good I’m the world.
Your utter rubbish posted this afternoon demonstrates a huge lack of understanding about our club, football clubs generally , what is prioritised and why.
No electricity company has , or will cut off supply to a business like ours for overdue payments in years . The litigation of such a move is not worth their reputations and it also ensures they will never get their debt repaid .
Hmrc is prioritised at our club and rightly so. They , more than any creditor have the power to trigger an administration event. We must also warrant to the FA and EFL in our licensing compliance that her majesty is up to date and happy with us.
Our club is failing in many ways , but generally doing the right thing in terms of paying our VAT, PAYE and other compliance obligations is Proudly something we keep up to date on and rightly so.
Don't worry, they just want to talk it over with Jeremy Corbyn first...
No surprise perhaps @marlowchair that at a time when the players of the club were striving inspiringly in pursuit of a vital point, watched by fans of the club who could be there or at least for those who couldn’t on Iplayer, you instead at that very moment spent the time composing that pile of utter bollocks.
Thank god @marlowchair explained the bleeding obvious to dev so we don’t have to.
Yep, we’ll known fact that power companies don’t cut off companies that don’t pay their bills .
And that if they wanted to the cost of “litigation” would be too high.
They just keep on supplying letting the debt grow and grow.
Ho hum
FFS Dev, you constantly post shite & ask pointless questions of posters on here, about a football club you visit once in a blue moon. Be honest you know jack all about the machinations of this football club in reality & are quick to criticise those who clearly have a reasonable, if not large quantum of "in the know" knowledge.
I'll ask you a question then, what is the current status of the USA bid? Please don't answer with a question to deflect.
Just block his posts it works for the soul.
Ewan
In answer to your post
1) I have NO inside knowledge of the workings of the club - none, nichts, nada. I would never claim to. that would be a lie.
2) as such I dont know the current status of the US bid. My assumption for what it is worth is that at best it is severely wounded and my guess is it is dead. That is mere assumption though - not fact.
3) My assumption is that Marlow does have limited inside information - assumption not fact.
4) My assessment is that he uses snippets of information (often in the public domain) and then spins tissues of lies off that snippet.
5) Were he to take an extreme example to claim that there was a board meeting tomorrow night and that the "power group" had forced through a motion to eat babies, I wouldn't know for sure what had been discussed, but my assessment based on experience without any inside knowledge would be that that claim was nonsensical.
6) My assessment is that not every poster on the gasroom worked/works in business administration and therefore have much knowledge of it.
7) My assessment is that many of marlow's claims about the business of WWFC , based from knowledge of how business works, are as nonsensical as would be the claim in 5)
8) Marlows claim about HMRC is just one of those, as were his claims a couple of days ago, as were in my assessment the vast majority of his claims
9) It is my assessment that normally the gasroom is largely harmless. Given the voting system here, my assessment is that this is not the case in this instance and he and his mates and mr Harman have already done great harm. time may prove me wrong in this assessment, possibly as early as tomorrow.
10) you have a choice of what to believe. There is a danger that marlow has potential to be a "one eyed man" leading the "blind". it is your choice whether to follow or whether to open your eyes.
11) The thumbs down button is located somewhere at the bottom of the page.
@marlowchair provided an answer to my question about Sam Saunders yesterday which included details that aren't in the public domain and I happen to know he was 100% accurate.