@aloysius , always someone trying to find some scandal.
I'd be surprised if it's not simply, poor player, take him out of it for the last few weeks, re-assess in the summer.
We already have Southwell and Rowe to possible arrange exits for this summer, so i'm not sure WDH and Muller on top would help.
We need to put more effort into the INS
It is worth noting that Muller has come from a different country, where the style of football would be completely different. And was also returning from a long injury lay off. I think I saw enough from him to suggest there's something to work with and potential to be a good ball playing League 2 defender.
Good point. Doubt the Austrian league he played in previously is as physically demanding as League Two especially in terms of aerial battles, duals and tussels. Not easy either when you are trying to come back from a long term injury.
Perhaps after a full pre season we will have a better chance to assess what Muller can offer at our level, he's already shown he has composure in possession but it's whether he can step up to the pace and physical side that we're yet to see
@DJWYC14 said:
Good point. Doubt the Austrian league he played in previously is as physically demanding as League Two especially in terms of aerial battles, duals and tussels. Not easy either when you are trying to come back from a long term injury.
Perhaps after a full pre season we will have a better chance to assess what Muller can offer at our level, he's already shown he has composure in possession but it's whether he can step up to the pace and physical side that we're yet to see
Exactly my thoughts, it's clear that Muller can play, his first touch for a centre back at this level is superb, and it makes a huge difference having someone who can pick a pass into feet from the back. Hopefully a proper Pre-season will get him up to the physical level needed.
And I hope Southwell isn't bombed out, I feel sorry for him as he works so hard for the team with absolutely no service/ chance to show us if he's any good with the ball.
Bizarre to champion Muller who has had no good performances for the club as far as I'm aware, and shown a worrying capacity to make mistakes in dangerous positions; and yet pillory WDH who is the same age. As @Right_in_the_Middle says a centre back's first job is to defend, and Muller has far from convinced me so far. Neither he nor WDH are the finished article - hopefully they'll go out loan next season and continue their development as players.
@Chris said:
Bizarre to champion Muller who has had no good performances for the club as far as I'm aware, and shown a worrying capacity to make mistakes in dangerous positions; and yet pillory WDH who is the same age. As Right_in_the_Middle says a centre back's first job is to defend, and Muller has far from convinced me so far. Neither he nor WDH are the finished article - hopefully they'll go out loan next season and continue their development as players.
Muller has been injured for a year and is in a new country/ league. His footballing ability is incomparable to WDH, it takes 5 minutes to see that.
WDH hasn't had much game time/ experience, but has been fit. You can't really improve technically the amount he would need to in a short space of time to not be a liability, but Muller can get fitter and adapt to the "English" game.
I hope I'm proved wrong on WDH and he has a brilliant career, but I'd put good money on him disappearing into non league.
I don't think we should underestimate the impact of moving into a new town and gaining a new set of teammates for any young player, be they from Germany or Coventry. I don't know if WDH is living with his folks and driving in each day, or based on Wycombe with a limited friendship circle, but either way it's not going to be a walk in the park and he needs to be cut a lot of slack for that. Perhaps it was slightly easier for Max - not only having played away from his home country already by going to Austria but also his long term injury at the start may well have taken the initial pressure off him to perform.
Having said that, if there's one attribute to a central defender Gareth Ainsworth appears to value above all others it's the ability not to panic when under pressure - it's the one trait shared by Mawson, Pierre, Stewart, McCarthy, Jombati and now Muller. You can't say the same for WDH - which suggests he may not be cut out for the team past this season.
I don't think he does, that's why he's been caught on the ball! He doesn't panic enough - he needs to learn when to put his foot through the ball and when to play out.
So the converstation turns once more to the back up centre backs. For me if you want a pure defender then WDH is the man. If you prefer the composure and passing ability Muller is that man. Personally I'd take WDH every day of the week and have found it interesting to compare the comments from some after his recent games compared to those of Jombati. I don't think there has been that much difference between them on the pitch but the difference is massive in the views. The credit Jombati has rightly got from the last couple of years carrys alot of weight. Plus he's more of a ball player so is favoured by those who like that in a centre back.
Defenders have to defend first and foremost. We have been so lucky to have players who can do so much more than that for years and years. That is not always going to be the case.
If WDH was anything more than bang average defensively you'd have a point. But he's not, and he causes the team to need to defend more by constantly giving the ball back, not to mention needlessly giving away fouls at a rate that stands out amongst a whole team that do...
Look @Username I get that you don't rate WDH. That is very obvious. Quite simply though your view is not fact by any definition of the term. I've seen WDH have a few decent games for us and I certainly don't worry with him on the team sheet. He's made a few errors that you have lept on but you must admit you have missed out a heck of alot of decent work he's done for us.
I'm guessing you prefer a ball playing centre back and I'd agree that he's not one of those. He is though a hard working defender with a decent attitude from what I've seen. Ainsworth's treatment of him in his last appearance was awful and if he can recover from that your abuse will be water of a ducks back. Who needs enemies when he has supporters like you.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
So the converstation turns once more to the back up centre backs. For me if you want a pure defender then WDH is the man. If you prefer the composure and passing ability Muller is that man. Personally I'd take WDH every day of the week and have found it interesting to compare the comments from some after his recent games compared to those of Jombati. I don't think there has been that much difference between them on the pitch but the difference is massive in the views. The credit Jombati has rightly got from the last couple of years carrys alot of weight. Plus he's more of a ball player so is favoured by those who like that in a centre back.
Defenders have to defend first and foremost. We have been so lucky to have players who can do so much more than that for years and years. That is not always going to be the case.
You have to be joking. WDH against Cheltenham was easily the worst centre back performance I've seen over the last few years watching Wycombe. Absolutely dreadful at everything for the entire game. In contrast, Sido has been a complete revelation at centre back, and has put in 3 extremely solid performances, verging on brilliance at times. They shouldn't even be in the same sentence.
I'm precisely not picking on his "individual mistakes", mistakes happen and I accept that. Unless you count his overall game as a mistake? I don't count pumping the ball to no one 6 times consecutively as a mistake.
Each to their own, I'd rather not see him on the pitch again.
WDH reminds me a lot of Dave Winfield. When he arrived he was a big lad with no composure and absolutely no ball-playing ability who we all worried about when in the team. Once he settled he matured quickly and became a decent captain - using his muscle to score goals and dominate at the back. However he never learnt how to become a ball-playing defender - hence why none of us shed too much of a tear when he left and why he's now plying his trade in the non-leagues. If WDH is to avoid that route he needs to be more than just a 'pure defender', in my opinion.
The same with Muller, and the non recall of Danny Rowe. I can't imagine all three or any of them will be allowed to just sit on there last year of contracts without looking likely to make the squad. Some tender negotiations in the summer, I suspect.
Winfield was great, and only left because he was offered a better deal at Shrewsbury. He wasn't as good as Mawson, McCarthy, Pierre or Stewart, but that's more a reflection of the quality of those players than a criticism of Winfield. I wonder how he has ended up at the level he has - he's still not yet 30. It could be a fitness thing I suppose.
Danny Rowe came in a few years ago and was a revelation at centre back, keeping Stewart out of the side. It's a shame he hasn't lived up to his potential yet.
Comments
@aloysius , always someone trying to find some scandal.
I'd be surprised if it's not simply, poor player, take him out of it for the last few weeks, re-assess in the summer.
We already have Southwell and Rowe to possible arrange exits for this summer, so i'm not sure WDH and Muller on top would help.
We need to put more effort into the INS
I do like a bit of scandal. It was just a very abrupt exit by @RichardDeHavilland. Hope he's back soon.
I certainly haven't suggested Muller would be leaving though - I'm sure he'll be around next season and hopefully play a very big role in our team.
@floyd
The Muller comment must rank alongside, The "Liverpool are after Alan Beeton" remark that was bandied about a few years back.
So it would seem @ChasHarps
It is worth noting that Muller has come from a different country, where the style of football would be completely different. And was also returning from a long injury lay off. I think I saw enough from him to suggest there's something to work with and potential to be a good ball playing League 2 defender.
Good point. Doubt the Austrian league he played in previously is as physically demanding as League Two especially in terms of aerial battles, duals and tussels. Not easy either when you are trying to come back from a long term injury.
Perhaps after a full pre season we will have a better chance to assess what Muller can offer at our level, he's already shown he has composure in possession but it's whether he can step up to the pace and physical side that we're yet to see
Exactly my thoughts, it's clear that Muller can play, his first touch for a centre back at this level is superb, and it makes a huge difference having someone who can pick a pass into feet from the back. Hopefully a proper Pre-season will get him up to the physical level needed.
And I hope Southwell isn't bombed out, I feel sorry for him as he works so hard for the team with absolutely no service/ chance to show us if he's any good with the ball.
Southwell has had chances but not taken them. Unfortunately for him there are currently 4 better strikers at the club.
Bizarre to champion Muller who has had no good performances for the club as far as I'm aware, and shown a worrying capacity to make mistakes in dangerous positions; and yet pillory WDH who is the same age. As @Right_in_the_Middle says a centre back's first job is to defend, and Muller has far from convinced me so far. Neither he nor WDH are the finished article - hopefully they'll go out loan next season and continue their development as players.
Muller has been injured for a year and is in a new country/ league. His footballing ability is incomparable to WDH, it takes 5 minutes to see that.
WDH hasn't had much game time/ experience, but has been fit. You can't really improve technically the amount he would need to in a short space of time to not be a liability, but Muller can get fitter and adapt to the "English" game.
I hope I'm proved wrong on WDH and he has a brilliant career, but I'd put good money on him disappearing into non league.
Your final paragraph @Username sounds like you are referring to Max Müller but I assume it relates to Will De Havilland.
Yh it's about WDH, will make it less confusing!
I don't think we should underestimate the impact of moving into a new town and gaining a new set of teammates for any young player, be they from Germany or Coventry. I don't know if WDH is living with his folks and driving in each day, or based on Wycombe with a limited friendship circle, but either way it's not going to be a walk in the park and he needs to be cut a lot of slack for that. Perhaps it was slightly easier for Max - not only having played away from his home country already by going to Austria but also his long term injury at the start may well have taken the initial pressure off him to perform.
Having said that, if there's one attribute to a central defender Gareth Ainsworth appears to value above all others it's the ability not to panic when under pressure - it's the one trait shared by Mawson, Pierre, Stewart, McCarthy, Jombati and now Muller. You can't say the same for WDH - which suggests he may not be cut out for the team past this season.
Muller has consistently panicked under pressure for Wycombe.
He's made mistakes yes, but he doesn't panic every time the ball is within a 5 metre radius of him
He does when an attacker is within a 5 metre radius of him!
I don't think he does, that's why he's been caught on the ball! He doesn't panic enough - he needs to learn when to put his foot through the ball and when to play out.
And to do an 180 degree turn in less than 30 seconds !!
So the converstation turns once more to the back up centre backs. For me if you want a pure defender then WDH is the man. If you prefer the composure and passing ability Muller is that man. Personally I'd take WDH every day of the week and have found it interesting to compare the comments from some after his recent games compared to those of Jombati. I don't think there has been that much difference between them on the pitch but the difference is massive in the views. The credit Jombati has rightly got from the last couple of years carrys alot of weight. Plus he's more of a ball player so is favoured by those who like that in a centre back.
Defenders have to defend first and foremost. We have been so lucky to have players who can do so much more than that for years and years. That is not always going to be the case.
If WDH was anything more than bang average defensively you'd have a point. But he's not, and he causes the team to need to defend more by constantly giving the ball back, not to mention needlessly giving away fouls at a rate that stands out amongst a whole team that do...
Average is probably better than you could expect from a 22 year old reserve centre back.
Look @Username I get that you don't rate WDH. That is very obvious. Quite simply though your view is not fact by any definition of the term. I've seen WDH have a few decent games for us and I certainly don't worry with him on the team sheet. He's made a few errors that you have lept on but you must admit you have missed out a heck of alot of decent work he's done for us.
I'm guessing you prefer a ball playing centre back and I'd agree that he's not one of those. He is though a hard working defender with a decent attitude from what I've seen. Ainsworth's treatment of him in his last appearance was awful and if he can recover from that your abuse will be water of a ducks back. Who needs enemies when he has supporters like you.
You have to be joking. WDH against Cheltenham was easily the worst centre back performance I've seen over the last few years watching Wycombe. Absolutely dreadful at everything for the entire game. In contrast, Sido has been a complete revelation at centre back, and has put in 3 extremely solid performances, verging on brilliance at times. They shouldn't even be in the same sentence.
I'm precisely not picking on his "individual mistakes", mistakes happen and I accept that. Unless you count his overall game as a mistake? I don't count pumping the ball to no one 6 times consecutively as a mistake.
Each to their own, I'd rather not see him on the pitch again.
WDH reminds me a lot of Dave Winfield. When he arrived he was a big lad with no composure and absolutely no ball-playing ability who we all worried about when in the team. Once he settled he matured quickly and became a decent captain - using his muscle to score goals and dominate at the back. However he never learnt how to become a ball-playing defender - hence why none of us shed too much of a tear when he left and why he's now plying his trade in the non-leagues. If WDH is to avoid that route he needs to be more than just a 'pure defender', in my opinion.
That's pretty similar to my thoughts, except Winfield was considerably bigger and more dominant in the air than WDH is currently.
If WDH isn't injured the fact that Ainsworth currently favours a full back at center back tells you all you need to know.
The same with Muller, and the non recall of Danny Rowe. I can't imagine all three or any of them will be allowed to just sit on there last year of contracts without looking likely to make the squad. Some tender negotiations in the summer, I suspect.
Winfield was great, and only left because he was offered a better deal at Shrewsbury. He wasn't as good as Mawson, McCarthy, Pierre or Stewart, but that's more a reflection of the quality of those players than a criticism of Winfield. I wonder how he has ended up at the level he has - he's still not yet 30. It could be a fitness thing I suppose.
Danny Rowe came in a few years ago and was a revelation at centre back, keeping Stewart out of the side. It's a shame he hasn't lived up to his potential yet.