From people I know who plan to vote reform, they fully understand that its a wasted vote in reality. To them it is a two fingers up the tories and Labour and generally they believe that we as a nation need to start looking out for number 1 first and foremost
I sort of get the @AlanCecil argument for sticking with your ‘team’.
In politics especially many people tend to align themselves to a party that best reflects their values (so in my case liberal/Liberal) and do tend to maintain their support even through dark times.
The difficulty I see (and I think after Friday this will become very interesting) is that I am not sure the modern Conservative Party has anything like the same values that it used to have.
I would genuinely love to see them suffer the level of defeat they deserve for the harm they (shamefully aided and abetted for the first few years by my party) have inflicted on this country since 2010 and will celebrate wildly every lost seat (other than to the Farage ego trip lot).
I do worry however that a cataclysmic defeat (say below 100 seats) would lead to a merging with Farage and co that could embolden the far right in what is going to be a very difficult period for the Labour government regardless.
The Tory party (and I think those of us who have a lifelong hatred of the Tory party do as well) will need the likes of @AlanCecil to stand up and be counted after Friday if we wish to maintain a bulwark of social conservatism against the extremist rantings of the swivel eyed loons.
Reform was formerly the Brexit party, and UKIP before that, so obviously most of them were Leave voters.
But the damage was not the fact that we voted to leave, but the shameful inaction of the Government in implementing the exit, which took over 4 years. Labour under Corbyn don't escape blame, either, their at best lukewarm endorsement of the Remain campaign was certainly a factor in the eventual outcome.
The fact that the Tories took so long to implement Brexit was arguably a blessing in disguise insofar as some of the worst effects on the economy and the cost of living - eg the imposition of import/export tariffs - only came into force a couple of months ago.
The Brexit referendum votes should have been weighted so that the younger the voter the more weight it carried. (*)
As it is, the younger generation have had a Brexit forced upon them which they didn't want, by a generation who will be long gone by the time the full impact of it is known.
(*) There actually shouldn't have been a referendum in the first place
My wife just had a text from ‘Labour’ saying that it was time for change, click here to vote.
We didn’t click on it obviously, but it is most likely to either steal your details or to make you think you’ve already voted so no need to go to the polling station.
I asked my son and daughter - both in their mid 30s in 2016, and both in well paid jobs - to read all of the competing arguments for Remain and Leave, and decide which way to vote. Mrs B and I would then vote the same way.
They both concluded that Leave was the better option, and we voted accordingly.
If there hadn't been a referendum, Farage would probably have become PM at the 2019 election, and Labour would not now be on the cusp of a landslide victory.
Voted early at 7.15. Already, a poor old chap was sat in a chair with his walking sticks , unable to vote as he didn't have any ID. Didn't have a phone either so staff had called the election team who are organising photo ID for him for next time.
Made me very angry that he'd bothered to drag down there with his mobility problems to cast his vote and while being treated sensitively by the staff, he's ultimately been disenfranchised for no good reason.
The Tories always used to be very proud that this is a country without ID cards and trumpet on about there being no good reason to show ID when going about your lawful business. Obviously, this only applies when it suits them.
Let’s hope he was sufficiently out of touch to have been intending to vote Conservative. A kind of rough justice. Sadly, there may not be a next time for him.
Having a well paid job doesn't make you politically literate, or able to discern lies from truth.
It was absolutely clear to anyone who paid any attention that voting for Brexit would make us poorer in the short and medium term, at least. The "benefits" were at best undefined and improbable and at worst straight up lies, or pure sentiment....
The trouble was @bargepole, the respective arguments were far too unbalanced to be described as competing. The case for remaining was extremely poorly represented. And we’re all too well aware now of the lies that were spouted/emblazoned on buses etc.
Your thinking at the time (In putting the decision which way to vote in your grown up children’s hands) was impressively forward thinking and unselfish but you possibly wouldn’t have gone along with it, ironically, if you had been made better aware of the potential pitfalls of leaving.
I'm not a Tory voter and can't imagine I ever will be, but neither am I a "hate all tories" sort of person. Over the years there's been plenty of good Conservative MPs. But the present version of the Conservatives seem to have completely lost their moral compass. They moved far enough to the right to alienate their more central minded core base, but not far enough right to appease the crazy Farage following types. They're nowhere now.
Whilst I don't particualy want them back in Government, a spell of self reflection out of office is needed, so they can come back and least form a meaningful opposition to Labour who've taken their centre ground.
Sadly not, I had a brief chat with him and he was planning to vote Labour. And we're a tight marginal here in Sherwood Forest.
It seems obvious to most of us that you now need ID but that was a sad sight. Sufficiently engaged to hobble down to the polling station and turned away for the crime of not reading leaflets. To be fair, even if he was voting Reform it's not right - there were 34 allegations of electoral fraud in 2019*, so this is pure and simple vote rigging.
Undoubtedly was a PR and vote rigging intention b ut think it may well have backfired. A large number of more elderly pensioners - traditionally more right wing - no longer have photo ID and cant be bothered to apply for the special election ID thing. Typical Johnson - bad policy badly executed.
It's obviously permissable but it's not ideal, particularly in cases where the overriding sentiment directly opposes the actual policies.
And yes people on both sides will have voted on sentiment, but a much larger percentage will have done so to leave, the view to remain was to maintain the status quo and not change rules. The vote to leave was to change policy and rules, and the vast vast majority had no idea what that actually meant or how it would be enacted.
Voter ID is a despicable ploy brought in by the Conservatives but where were the Labour luvvies when we needed them to resist? Perhaps in the same place they were during covid when the rich sat on their arses raking in £2.6k a month, castigating the invisible army of low paid workers servicing them for not adhering strictly enough to lockdown rules. Labour, Conservative - a plague on both their houses.
Were they grammar school educated out of curiosity?
And more relevant is the interpretation of 'better' in this context. Given the sheer variability of available options under the 'leave' it was practically impossible to know what the future would look like if the vote favoured leaving the EU. Would your children have considered it 'better', for example if Cameron had decided that given the closeness of the vote he would stay in post and bring in a 'Norway' type arrangement where we formally left the EU but paid to stay in the trading bloc and still allowed freedom of movement?
Comments
From people I know who plan to vote reform, they fully understand that its a wasted vote in reality. To them it is a two fingers up the tories and Labour and generally they believe that we as a nation need to start looking out for number 1 first and foremost
The irony being that many Reform voters also voted for Brexit, inflicting more damage on this country than anything outside of war or Liz Truss.
I sort of get the @AlanCecil argument for sticking with your ‘team’.
In politics especially many people tend to align themselves to a party that best reflects their values (so in my case liberal/Liberal) and do tend to maintain their support even through dark times.
The difficulty I see (and I think after Friday this will become very interesting) is that I am not sure the modern Conservative Party has anything like the same values that it used to have.
I would genuinely love to see them suffer the level of defeat they deserve for the harm they (shamefully aided and abetted for the first few years by my party) have inflicted on this country since 2010 and will celebrate wildly every lost seat (other than to the Farage ego trip lot).
I do worry however that a cataclysmic defeat (say below 100 seats) would lead to a merging with Farage and co that could embolden the far right in what is going to be a very difficult period for the Labour government regardless.
The Tory party (and I think those of us who have a lifelong hatred of the Tory party do as well) will need the likes of @AlanCecil to stand up and be counted after Friday if we wish to maintain a bulwark of social conservatism against the extremist rantings of the swivel eyed loons.
Very true @bookertease . I doubt Hestletine, Heath or Churchill would recognise the current party, never mind feel part of it.
I fear the good @drcongo is talking bollocks.
Reform was formerly the Brexit party, and UKIP before that, so obviously most of them were Leave voters.
But the damage was not the fact that we voted to leave, but the shameful inaction of the Government in implementing the exit, which took over 4 years. Labour under Corbyn don't escape blame, either, their at best lukewarm endorsement of the Remain campaign was certainly a factor in the eventual outcome.
The fact that the Tories took so long to implement Brexit was arguably a blessing in disguise insofar as some of the worst effects on the economy and the cost of living - eg the imposition of import/export tariffs - only came into force a couple of months ago.
The Brexit referendum votes should have been weighted so that the younger the voter the more weight it carried. (*)
As it is, the younger generation have had a Brexit forced upon them which they didn't want, by a generation who will be long gone by the time the full impact of it is known.
(*) There actually shouldn't have been a referendum in the first place
Morning everybody. GTFTO
My wife just had a text from ‘Labour’ saying that it was time for change, click here to vote.
We didn’t click on it obviously, but it is most likely to either steal your details or to make you think you’ve already voted so no need to go to the polling station.
Be careful out there today folks!
I asked my son and daughter - both in their mid 30s in 2016, and both in well paid jobs - to read all of the competing arguments for Remain and Leave, and decide which way to vote. Mrs B and I would then vote the same way.
They both concluded that Leave was the better option, and we voted accordingly.
If there hadn't been a referendum, Farage would probably have become PM at the 2019 election, and Labour would not now be on the cusp of a landslide victory.
I had a leaflet through the door late last night, headed 'Vote For Truth'.
This was from a pro-Palestine independent candidate, standing in Wycombe.
Truth is the one thing you won't get from any of the parties, large or small.
Voted early at 7.15. Already, a poor old chap was sat in a chair with his walking sticks , unable to vote as he didn't have any ID. Didn't have a phone either so staff had called the election team who are organising photo ID for him for next time.
Made me very angry that he'd bothered to drag down there with his mobility problems to cast his vote and while being treated sensitively by the staff, he's ultimately been disenfranchised for no good reason.
The Tories always used to be very proud that this is a country without ID cards and trumpet on about there being no good reason to show ID when going about your lawful business. Obviously, this only applies when it suits them.
Fingers crossed they are annihilated.
Let’s hope he was sufficiently out of touch to have been intending to vote Conservative. A kind of rough justice. Sadly, there may not be a next time for him.
Having a well paid job doesn't make you politically literate, or able to discern lies from truth.
It was absolutely clear to anyone who paid any attention that voting for Brexit would make us poorer in the short and medium term, at least. The "benefits" were at best undefined and improbable and at worst straight up lies, or pure sentiment....
Farage would not have got anywhere near PM ffs
FWIW if anyone can’t get to their Wycombe polling station and needs a lift, let me know as I have a day off today and am happy to help.
The trouble was @bargepole, the respective arguments were far too unbalanced to be described as competing. The case for remaining was extremely poorly represented. And we’re all too well aware now of the lies that were spouted/emblazoned on buses etc.
Your thinking at the time (In putting the decision which way to vote in your grown up children’s hands) was impressively forward thinking and unselfish but you possibly wouldn’t have gone along with it, ironically, if you had been made better aware of the potential pitfalls of leaving.
If at all possible, would you be able to message me the link that was in that text? I'd love to do some digging and work out where it's coming from.
I'm not a Tory voter and can't imagine I ever will be, but neither am I a "hate all tories" sort of person. Over the years there's been plenty of good Conservative MPs. But the present version of the Conservatives seem to have completely lost their moral compass. They moved far enough to the right to alienate their more central minded core base, but not far enough right to appease the crazy Farage following types. They're nowhere now.
Whilst I don't particualy want them back in Government, a spell of self reflection out of office is needed, so they can come back and least form a meaningful opposition to Labour who've taken their centre ground.
For me, I'll be voting for Green!
Sending now fella.
Sadly not, I had a brief chat with him and he was planning to vote Labour. And we're a tight marginal here in Sherwood Forest.
It seems obvious to most of us that you now need ID but that was a sad sight. Sufficiently engaged to hobble down to the polling station and turned away for the crime of not reading leaflets. To be fair, even if he was voting Reform it's not right - there were 34 allegations of electoral fraud in 2019*, so this is pure and simple vote rigging.
*https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/campaigns/voter-id/
Particularly since student ID isn't accepted. A demographic traditionally unlikely to vote Tory.
Forum favourite Joey Barton has announced he's going to spoil his ballot. Isn't not voting a much easier way to achieve the same result?
Ballot nonce.
Undoubtedly was a PR and vote rigging intention b ut think it may well have backfired. A large number of more elderly pensioners - traditionally more right wing - no longer have photo ID and cant be bothered to apply for the special election ID thing. Typical Johnson - bad policy badly executed.
Student ID bad.
Over 60s bus pass good.
Nothing to see here.
Don't you think people voted both ways on pure sentiment? Is sentiment not a permissable reason to vote?
It's obviously permissable but it's not ideal, particularly in cases where the overriding sentiment directly opposes the actual policies.
And yes people on both sides will have voted on sentiment, but a much larger percentage will have done so to leave, the view to remain was to maintain the status quo and not change rules. The vote to leave was to change policy and rules, and the vast vast majority had no idea what that actually meant or how it would be enacted.
Voter ID is a despicable ploy brought in by the Conservatives but where were the Labour luvvies when we needed them to resist? Perhaps in the same place they were during covid when the rich sat on their arses raking in £2.6k a month, castigating the invisible army of low paid workers servicing them for not adhering strictly enough to lockdown rules. Labour, Conservative - a plague on both their houses.
Were they grammar school educated out of curiosity?
And more relevant is the interpretation of 'better' in this context. Given the sheer variability of available options under the 'leave' it was practically impossible to know what the future would look like if the vote favoured leaving the EU. Would your children have considered it 'better', for example if Cameron had decided that given the closeness of the vote he would stay in post and bring in a 'Norway' type arrangement where we formally left the EU but paid to stay in the trading bloc and still allowed freedom of movement?
Labour opposed it didn't they?