As tournaments go at the start I thought quarter final would be par for this team. However with others falling by the wayside and our team improving I was given hope. It's not the despair, it's the hope I can't deal with.
The game last night had a ref that was out of his depth sadly. What I will say is that Bellingham and Saka in particular were looking for fouls constantly. Fouls that if they were given against my team I would be shouting my displeasure. Not all contacts are fouls. So when proper fouls occur (probably in the build up to the French goal) the ref just waves it on. And for that I don't blame him. But other areas of his officiating he was a rabbit in the headlights. And VAR was ... questionable on the 'penalty'
Taking Saka off was an odd one. Their left back was having a horror of a game and must have been delighted when Saka went off especially as Sterling never got up to speed and we lost that avenue of attack.
As for the penalty. You should score those, you should get them on target. But he didn't so hey ho.
Compared to the ugly scenes with the Argentina game it was also nice to see civility at the end and mutual respect. I turned it off, ate a bag of sweets and watched a good film. No particular pain, I think I was already at ease or or just used to this.
Southgate didn't sound 100% that he'd continue after did he?
He said something slightly odd about how they'll sit down and review it all.
It's been a strange period where he technically is the most successful tournament manager overall outside of 1966, but there's a massive feeling that he's not made the most of our wealth of attacking options.
Yes there were positive aspects to his performance, especially as you say in the not being conned stakes. However, his seeming inability to make the big decisions at the right moment, is a serious flaw.
I think most fans wish he'd been a bit more positive at times over the last few years and tested attacking players and formations that we could maybe have leaned on when needed, it's the nature of the job that you play many poor teams in qualifying but need to turn it on in rare very difficult games.
Few watching the tournament with open eyes can fault him too much tactically before yesterday and we may well have lost to the eventual champions, he has built a spirit that really hasn't been in the group since 96, and got better results than anyone since Sir Alf.
Truth is the FA like him, there are very few English candidates of any standing that are likely to be available and we've enough good young players to suggest improvement is still possible. He's unlikely to go unless he's had enough of the press circus.
As a non-Englishman, I sometimes wonder what the average English fan expects from a team that is currently somewhere between 5th & 10th in the world?
Southgate has taken England to a WC semi & quarter final & the Euro Champ final; which to me seems about right given the current strengths & weaknesses of him & the team etc.
England have some really amazing young talents to build a team around, Bellingham, Foden, Saka, Ramsdale, Rice, White, Eze, Rashford, Arnold, James, Gallagher & many more ; so the future should look pretty bright. To be honest the only area I think they are struggling amongst the young guns is Centre Back & Left Back something that sadly seems true across the Leagues.
I do think those are good achievements conceptually, but when you add context it is very disappointing:
2018: Ahead against Croatia, could not finish them off. I do think we would have lost the WC final against a fantastic French side, but the practice would have been good, and the underdog status could have played into our hands.
2021: Ahead against Italy at home and tried to ride it out defensively when 20 minutes away from a trophy, with the whole country screaming at their TVs that we were going to concede if nothing changed. That trophy was there to be grabbed by positive substitutions at the right time who could put their foot on the ball and counterattack and/or keep possession.
2022: This one is clearly hard to fault Southgate for, but still a disappointment that we appeared to be the best team in the tournament (based on having the better of the game against the favourites) but still lost.
This is really the story of England's national team. Being very conservative I think we should have made at least 8 major finals (runners up 1970, 2004, 2018 and 2022) and won around four (1966, 1990, 1996 and 2021). That's not to mention 1986, 2006, etc. As it is, two finals and one win feels like the most staggering underachievement in sports.
One way in which I do think Southgate has been exceptional is unifying the team, as @StrongestTeam referenced above. England teams of the past mostly played like a group of rivals coming together, as the 'Golden Generation' have openly admitted. Under Southgate it has very much felt like 'England F.C,' which is no mean feat.
I'm from a small country of c6m people where we are generally very happy to qualify for a finals tournament, given we grew up, broadly, on a diet of glorious (& sometimes shocking) failure.
I suppose this changes my perspective on England's achievements & the expectations surrounding each tournament you qualify for.
One thing we have definitely learnt from this tournament is that despite apparent strength or otherwise of teams no-one can be written off & the future is most assuredly African & Asian. I certainly expect to see an African winner in the next 12 years & an Asian one in the next 20.
The traditional nexus of football greatness in Western Europe & South America will have to work double hard going forward to win World Cups...
I wouldn't be so sure about the future. Walter Winterbottom famously said an African team would win the World Cup by the end of the (20th) century. Whilst surely the gap is shrinking, the traditional 'big' nations aren't standing still.
It seems a huge stretch to suggest there's been a swing of dominance, based on a single example of one World cup - held in a weird December time slot, in an unusual setting like Qatar.
Especially as only 1 of the 8 quarter finalists were from those two continents?!
There has been a slow gradual progression amongst African & Asian teams, that has clearly increased pace in recent years but it will take the next generation of footballers from those regions to really make the big step.
For instance the JFA have made it their goal to win the World Cup by 2050 & are making substantial investments into youth & young adult coaching infrastructure to make that happen, we are also seeing the fruits of their existing investment with the number of leading Japanese players playing in Europe. Similarly, we have seen huge numbers of African footballers being picked up by European teams over the last 10 years& benefitting from our infrastructure, which is starting to benefit their national teams.
It is the height of white Western priveledge & arrogance to believe only the existing leading countries can keep winning as though there is some sort of divine mandateon where international trophies go.
@Erroll_Sims That's quite an insult for folks just saying there is limited evidence the pendulum has swung violently.
I think Morocco has a decent chance this year and would love to see Japan break through (I love everything about Japan in general), but Brazil v Korea and England v Senegal are pretty good indicators that there is a way to go for those continents holistically speaking as far as the latter stages of tournaments.
The reality is that eight nations have won the WC, so it is not any type of arrogance to say it is very hard to break through.
Hopefully Morocco can parlay this run into staying at the top table, either way.
Generally agree @Erroll_Sims but the last paragraph is a touch strong for me as I don't think "believe" is correct. I feel there is a growing understanding in the "existing leading countries" (your words) that the world order is changing and I feel that this will be put into the mix of football development and planning in order that the dream of a world cup triumph remains.
It's just weird to call it white privilege to say a racially diverse French team, for instance, is well placed to remain dominant, all the more so when there has been so much genuine joy expressed over the exploits of Morocco and Japan at this WC.
The arrogance here is all coming from @Erroll_Sims, who could not make a footballing point properly so descended to insults.
You may be right, but I remember similar such comments being made in 2002, since when (until this year) we have seen utter European domination.
Morocco have done exceptionally well but it is worth noting a few things: the circumstances of this World Cup are very similar to African Cup of Nations tournaments in recent years, with players stepping straight in from a European season. They have set themselves up in the same way as teams do in that event - get super organised defensively and depend on breaking with speed, because there simply isn't the time to do anything more complicated than this.
I am pleased to finally see the breakthrough to a semi-final and would love to see them getting further, but let us not forget that this is a squad full of players brought up in Europe (a huge proportion born in Europe) and playing in big five leagues, who unlike the European teams know how to deal with mid-season international tournaments.
Pretty sure Southgate answered the question almost exactly the same way the last time he was asked it post tournament exit.
He seems to be very much a reflect later and speak to everyone including his family before committing to another two year cycle kind of person. The appetite of the nation in him continuing being one of the factors the thinks about.
I tend to agree with you especially on the natural stopping point. But I think he said he lives in Sheffield (up north anyway) and I can imagine the work and travel has a significant impact on family.
He might not want to commit to another 2 years away from them for much of that time. On the other hand, his wife might not want him hanging around the house more.
Family life balance can sway a lot in a decision like that.
I’m also fairly sure after the last World Cup, a similar statement to the one on Saturday night and then his contract was extended to after Euro 24. This could be a negotiation point and he’s looking for an extension to after WC26
I think the big disappointment really was the 2020 (2021) Euros final. We should have won that, which would make subsequent tournament defeats easier to stomach.
If you played that England-France game 10 times I think you probably get 5 draws and 2-3 wins for either team. In knockout football when it is that tight in a game it can feel like failure, but in reality it could easily have been the complete opposite outcome.
Comments
As tournaments go at the start I thought quarter final would be par for this team. However with others falling by the wayside and our team improving I was given hope. It's not the despair, it's the hope I can't deal with.
The game last night had a ref that was out of his depth sadly. What I will say is that Bellingham and Saka in particular were looking for fouls constantly. Fouls that if they were given against my team I would be shouting my displeasure. Not all contacts are fouls. So when proper fouls occur (probably in the build up to the French goal) the ref just waves it on. And for that I don't blame him. But other areas of his officiating he was a rabbit in the headlights. And VAR was ... questionable on the 'penalty'
Taking Saka off was an odd one. Their left back was having a horror of a game and must have been delighted when Saka went off especially as Sterling never got up to speed and we lost that avenue of attack.
As for the penalty. You should score those, you should get them on target. But he didn't so hey ho.
Compared to the ugly scenes with the Argentina game it was also nice to see civility at the end and mutual respect. I turned it off, ate a bag of sweets and watched a good film. No particular pain, I think I was already at ease or or just used to this.
Southgate didn't sound 100% that he'd continue after did he?
He said something slightly odd about how they'll sit down and review it all.
It's been a strange period where he technically is the most successful tournament manager overall outside of 1966, but there's a massive feeling that he's not made the most of our wealth of attacking options.
Yes there were positive aspects to his performance, especially as you say in the not being conned stakes. However, his seeming inability to make the big decisions at the right moment, is a serious flaw.
Southgate has an outstanding tournament record and oozes decency as a human being. Be careful what you wish for….
As ever, there is only one statistic which matters come full time!
Yes and if you watch the initial TV angle look at the refs view, it was perfect.
I think most fans wish he'd been a bit more positive at times over the last few years and tested attacking players and formations that we could maybe have leaned on when needed, it's the nature of the job that you play many poor teams in qualifying but need to turn it on in rare very difficult games.
Few watching the tournament with open eyes can fault him too much tactically before yesterday and we may well have lost to the eventual champions, he has built a spirit that really hasn't been in the group since 96, and got better results than anyone since Sir Alf.
Truth is the FA like him, there are very few English candidates of any standing that are likely to be available and we've enough good young players to suggest improvement is still possible. He's unlikely to go unless he's had enough of the press circus.
As a non-Englishman, I sometimes wonder what the average English fan expects from a team that is currently somewhere between 5th & 10th in the world?
Southgate has taken England to a WC semi & quarter final & the Euro Champ final; which to me seems about right given the current strengths & weaknesses of him & the team etc.
England have some really amazing young talents to build a team around, Bellingham, Foden, Saka, Ramsdale, Rice, White, Eze, Rashford, Arnold, James, Gallagher & many more ; so the future should look pretty bright. To be honest the only area I think they are struggling amongst the young guns is Centre Back & Left Back something that sadly seems true across the Leagues.
I do think those are good achievements conceptually, but when you add context it is very disappointing:
2018: Ahead against Croatia, could not finish them off. I do think we would have lost the WC final against a fantastic French side, but the practice would have been good, and the underdog status could have played into our hands.
2021: Ahead against Italy at home and tried to ride it out defensively when 20 minutes away from a trophy, with the whole country screaming at their TVs that we were going to concede if nothing changed. That trophy was there to be grabbed by positive substitutions at the right time who could put their foot on the ball and counterattack and/or keep possession.
2022: This one is clearly hard to fault Southgate for, but still a disappointment that we appeared to be the best team in the tournament (based on having the better of the game against the favourites) but still lost.
This is really the story of England's national team. Being very conservative I think we should have made at least 8 major finals (runners up 1970, 2004, 2018 and 2022) and won around four (1966, 1990, 1996 and 2021). That's not to mention 1986, 2006, etc. As it is, two finals and one win feels like the most staggering underachievement in sports.
One way in which I do think Southgate has been exceptional is unifying the team, as @StrongestTeam referenced above. England teams of the past mostly played like a group of rivals coming together, as the 'Golden Generation' have openly admitted. Under Southgate it has very much felt like 'England F.C,' which is no mean feat.
I'm from a small country of c6m people where we are generally very happy to qualify for a finals tournament, given we grew up, broadly, on a diet of glorious (& sometimes shocking) failure.
I suppose this changes my perspective on England's achievements & the expectations surrounding each tournament you qualify for.
One thing we have definitely learnt from this tournament is that despite apparent strength or otherwise of teams no-one can be written off & the future is most assuredly African & Asian. I certainly expect to see an African winner in the next 12 years & an Asian one in the next 20.
The traditional nexus of football greatness in Western Europe & South America will have to work double hard going forward to win World Cups...
It's great to know we have Danish fans at Wycombe. Skol!
I wouldn't be so sure about the future. Walter Winterbottom famously said an African team would win the World Cup by the end of the (20th) century. Whilst surely the gap is shrinking, the traditional 'big' nations aren't standing still.
3.8 million Croatians and they are well on the way to back-to-back finals.
It seems a huge stretch to suggest there's been a swing of dominance, based on a single example of one World cup - held in a weird December time slot, in an unusual setting like Qatar.
Especially as only 1 of the 8 quarter finalists were from those two continents?!
There has been a slow gradual progression amongst African & Asian teams, that has clearly increased pace in recent years but it will take the next generation of footballers from those regions to really make the big step.
For instance the JFA have made it their goal to win the World Cup by 2050 & are making substantial investments into youth & young adult coaching infrastructure to make that happen, we are also seeing the fruits of their existing investment with the number of leading Japanese players playing in Europe. Similarly, we have seen huge numbers of African footballers being picked up by European teams over the last 10 years& benefitting from our infrastructure, which is starting to benefit their national teams.
It is the height of white Western priveledge & arrogance to believe only the existing leading countries can keep winning as though there is some sort of divine mandateon where international trophies go.
I started trying to answer this, but that last line is so breathtakingly ridiculous and insulting, I decided not to bother.
@Erroll_Sims That's quite an insult for folks just saying there is limited evidence the pendulum has swung violently.
I think Morocco has a decent chance this year and would love to see Japan break through (I love everything about Japan in general), but Brazil v Korea and England v Senegal are pretty good indicators that there is a way to go for those continents holistically speaking as far as the latter stages of tournaments.
The reality is that eight nations have won the WC, so it is not any type of arrogance to say it is very hard to break through.
Hopefully Morocco can parlay this run into staying at the top table, either way.
@Malone you took the wiser path!
Generally agree @Erroll_Sims but the last paragraph is a touch strong for me as I don't think "believe" is correct. I feel there is a growing understanding in the "existing leading countries" (your words) that the world order is changing and I feel that this will be put into the mix of football development and planning in order that the dream of a world cup triumph remains.
It's just weird to call it white privilege to say a racially diverse French team, for instance, is well placed to remain dominant, all the more so when there has been so much genuine joy expressed over the exploits of Morocco and Japan at this WC.
The arrogance here is all coming from @Erroll_Sims, who could not make a footballing point properly so descended to insults.
Of the 27 players in the England v France game 12 of them had cultural ties to Africa or the Caribbean.
You may be right, but I remember similar such comments being made in 2002, since when (until this year) we have seen utter European domination.
Morocco have done exceptionally well but it is worth noting a few things: the circumstances of this World Cup are very similar to African Cup of Nations tournaments in recent years, with players stepping straight in from a European season. They have set themselves up in the same way as teams do in that event - get super organised defensively and depend on breaking with speed, because there simply isn't the time to do anything more complicated than this.
I am pleased to finally see the breakthrough to a semi-final and would love to see them getting further, but let us not forget that this is a squad full of players brought up in Europe (a huge proportion born in Europe) and playing in big five leagues, who unlike the European teams know how to deal with mid-season international tournaments.
Pretty sure Southgate answered the question almost exactly the same way the last time he was asked it post tournament exit.
He seems to be very much a reflect later and speak to everyone including his family before committing to another two year cycle kind of person. The appetite of the nation in him continuing being one of the factors the thinks about.
He's got a contract until 2024, so as long as he's happy to continue, there's no reason for a change now.
After the next tournament might feel a more natural changing of the guard time.
I tend to agree with you especially on the natural stopping point. But I think he said he lives in Sheffield (up north anyway) and I can imagine the work and travel has a significant impact on family.
He might not want to commit to another 2 years away from them for much of that time. On the other hand, his wife might not want him hanging around the house more.
Family life balance can sway a lot in a decision like that.
I’m also fairly sure after the last World Cup, a similar statement to the one on Saturday night and then his contract was extended to after Euro 24. This could be a negotiation point and he’s looking for an extension to after WC26
I think the big disappointment really was the 2020 (2021) Euros final. We should have won that, which would make subsequent tournament defeats easier to stomach.
If you played that England-France game 10 times I think you probably get 5 draws and 2-3 wins for either team. In knockout football when it is that tight in a game it can feel like failure, but in reality it could easily have been the complete opposite outcome.
I hope he's able to stay on.
Me too.
this kid at my school is going to be very mad because portugal lost
Check yr privilege. 22 white blokes on the pitch. It's like wandering into a Games Workshop.