You can't have been watching very carefully then. I don't think there's a better space creator in the squad than Horgan - who was also among our very best performers in terms of chance creation last season (only GMac and JJ created more big chances - and JJ only created one more). "He offers next to nothing" is hyperbolic silliness. Sure, he's been off it for most of this season, but he's plainly a quality player.
But we could argue about this until the cows come home; some people just won't see what's right in front of their own eyes, even when it's backed up by the data.
Why did you expect goals from a player who'd scored nine in 107 previous league appearances in English and Scottish football? You say you like Nick Freeman. Well, he's got five goals in 101 league games for Wycombe; does he also offer next to nothing?
That's not data. They are two stats that you've plucked out that happen to go against him.
DATA (ie. Graphs and numbers) of his all round game would prove that he offers a lot more to Wycombe Wanderers than what you have just offered to the Gasroom.
I often battle with @HolmerBlue and others as to who is the biggest Horgan fanboy. He was instrumental in our run in-last season from mid-table to a play-off place after a sequence of seven games that had yielded 3 pts and 0 wins, which “coincidentally” hadn’t featured him in the starting line-up. Yesterday’s shape was what I have been looking for, finally, with the most appropriate fit personnel in the right positions. This is why we were very competitive yesterday, and created like we know we can. We didn’t win yesterday because on the day we couldn’t finish, and Horgan had a poor game by his high standards. Giving away a soft, though genuine, penalty in only the sixth minute may have contributed to this.
It'll run and run will the Horgan debate. Its probably unfair to single him out when we're simply not functioning well right now. And we've never really suited his style amazingly, the ball is in the air too much.
But personally while I'll always support him on the pitch, I can't help thinking that an international attacking mid should produce more than creating space in tier 3 of the league.
Maybe I don't understand footy as well as others though.
Give Horgan a run like he got for a time last season and he will do a good job for the team.
The thing is we have what we have now and we need to encourage. It will be a long while before some of those injured players return and we have 3 months to the next transfer window.
I've long been frustrated with the lack of Horgan's end product but halfwya through last season I was definitely being bias so tried to start again! He finished the season reasonably well.
I thought first half Horgan was very good going forwards, he linked the play really well, scrapped for balls and was always willing to receive the ball. It was a shame one of the Forino, Vokes and Freeman efforts didn't go in.
The run he made and ball from Wing which he just couldn't control was something we've really been missing. A lot of fans around me were then on his back as they thought he should have controlled it and scored. Although he couldn't quite get there, it was exactly the run we've been missing so far this season. Someone going deep from midfield to get in behind the opposition back line.
Defensively he gave away the penalty, it was soft but these things happen sometimes. However, he did a lot of good defensive duty after that.
Second half, he had a few chances to get us away with attacks and couldn't get that final ball away, it was frustrating to see but equally as some have mentioned he had created that outlet to receive the ball and get us moving through the thirds. However, the biggest "culprit" ironically was Mehmeti missing the through ball to Horgan (i think it was Horgan) who had made a gut bursting run to get forward. Did all those around me get in the slightest bit annoyed and frustrated like they had with Horgan? No.
If we are keeping the ball on the deck, then I think he needs to play as he does do well when we are mixing it up. The game passes him by when we just hit it long.
What was so encouraging was that we were finally getting behind a defense yesterday, and it was against the top of the table team. Horgan's running from deep, Wing's range of passing and McCleary ability to stretch the defense really made a huge difference. Given the injury situation, I thought we played pretty well.
Plymouth clearly came out 2nd half with a better plan to nullify our threats and it worked.
I would have taken Vokes off after 65 minutes and brought Kaikai on. It may not have worked but the Plymouth back three had Vokes in their pocket 2nd half. That's how it goes sometimes. On Kaikai, what does he have to do to get some game time? Unless they are being careful after he came back from injury, I don't understand why he isn't on the pitch more often than not.
@Commoner I think that's actually a pretty good summing up of Horgan's display in Saturday. Part of his game was very good. He consistently made good runs and found himself on the ball in threatening areas. The pity was of course he just couldn't pick his passes, which is unlike him.
The 2 on 1 with Mehmeti and Horgan in the 2nd half was the most frustrating part of the match. Horgan was completely in the clear, no-one anywhere near him. Mehmeti had a fair bit of space himself and could possibly have taken it on, although I think the pass was the right option. Even a below par pass would have been ok, such was the space Horgan was in, but as it was, Mehmeti played it straight to the 1 defender who was covering, who I suspect couldn't believe his luck!
If Gape is out again Saturday, I hope we select the same line up. A bit more composure with the final ball and there was certainly enough encouragement for us on Saturday, to think that a result isn't too far off.
I know many are analyzing our team performance and that of some individuals but have we considered the Plymouth aspect in marking/closing down at all? as I've said before, it's a game with two teams.
Much easier to moan if you forget the opposition. They should just turn up, roll over., tummies tickled and Wycombe win. Frankly it was outrageous how Plymouth scored a soft penalty and defended the lead like it mattered
Somewhere, someplace, Ian Westlake is holding his beer…
The thing about Horgan is he’s one of those players you want to do well. Has the profile, pedigree and produces flashes etc.
He’ll wander into one of those pockets, receive the ball, swivel those little hips and lay it off. “He looks tidy”, you think, certainly by traditional Wycombe standards. But then moments later he’ll receive the ball in a promising position, swivel those hips again, but this time loop a cross to no-one 9/10. He isn’t and shouldn’t be the scapegoat for this season thus far. But pound-for-pound, I think his contribution has been sub-par.
Now who’s for the McCleary debate? Lauded as ‘the best player to wear the quarters’ but now suffering the same fate as Darren Currie, who in harder times was reduced to having all his deficiencies pointed out and all the good he’d done before was long forgotten.
I’m one of those who desperately wants Horgan to do well I kept wondering why an Irish international player can’t get more game time in a league one club. He’s not the worst player we’ve ever had but he’s a long way being off say a Scowen In terms of being an essential name on the team sheet.
I remember last season when people were banging on about McCleary being the best player we’ve ever had. To say that was a trifle premature would be an understatement. I would say he is the sort of player who you need on for the first 60 minutes and then taken off. Then we get back to when we use substitutes
@Malone I don't doubt that you are right but I can't find anything that clearly states this rule is correct. My Dad is a low level referee and he is unaware of it too. Can you show me where you have read this for my own sanity and understanding?
If an offside offence occurs, the referee awards an indirect free kick where the offence occurred, including if it is in the player’s own half of the field of play.
The offence, in this context, is playing the ball having been in an off side position when the ball was last played by a team mate. Thus its perfectly correct to award the free kick in your own half at times.
If an offside offence occurs, the referee awards an indirect free kick where the offence occurred, including if it is in the player’s own half of the field of play.
I think McCleary suffers a bit from peaks and troughs, and because when the peaks are high you notice the troughs more than for others.
I felt he was poor at the weekend, and would put that down to rustiness after a few weeks out. However, too often in games this season, he's been a bit all over the place positionally, getting in Mehmeti's way and leaving the other flank way too open. At one point on Saturday, you could actually see McCleary leave the winger to attack Obita, then decide way too late to track back and Argyle came close.
He has the talent to take every game for himself, but recently hasn't shown that.
McCleary is a fantastic talent but I have one criticism. He sometimes gets frustrated and goes looking for the ball. More often than not this leads him to be stood next to Anis. Which quite frankly buggers them both up and leaves a gap on the opposite flank. He did this infuriatingly against Shrewsbury and again v Plymouth. Both games we were knocking on the door for a large part of the game and couldn't get a finish and everyone was frustrated.
When he hugs the wing and links up with the full back he is unplayable.
Another thing from Saturday we couldn't cross for sh1t. How is that not coached better?
I think his 2nd half performance was very much due to the fact the Plymouth identified him as a threat and nullified him. When he doesn't get joy, he becomes ineffective. I thought our crossing was ok for once - we created our best chances from diagonal crosses.
Does anyone have any stats on when we scored from a corner last? (not directly, a la JJ)
Not a bona fide “stat” as such, just a fallible memory - but the last one I remember was vs. Franchise in the play off semi 1st leg. Prior to that was the game immediately preceding it, at Burton (Vokes header). Don’t recall one this season so far.
Comments
You can't have been watching very carefully then. I don't think there's a better space creator in the squad than Horgan - who was also among our very best performers in terms of chance creation last season (only GMac and JJ created more big chances - and JJ only created one more). "He offers next to nothing" is hyperbolic silliness. Sure, he's been off it for most of this season, but he's plainly a quality player.
But we could argue about this until the cows come home; some people just won't see what's right in front of their own eyes, even when it's backed up by the data.
Data?
- He has 1 goal for us in 85 league games. Of which he's started the majority.
- And it's not like he's making up for his lack of goal threat with masses of assists either. Just 7 in 2+ seasons.
- We've scored 127 league goals in that time
That's hard data
Why did you expect goals from a player who'd scored nine in 107 previous league appearances in English and Scottish football? You say you like Nick Freeman. Well, he's got five goals in 101 league games for Wycombe; does he also offer next to nothing?
That's not data. They are two stats that you've plucked out that happen to go against him.
DATA (ie. Graphs and numbers) of his all round game would prove that he offers a lot more to Wycombe Wanderers than what you have just offered to the Gasroom.
I often battle with @HolmerBlue and others as to who is the biggest Horgan fanboy. He was instrumental in our run in-last season from mid-table to a play-off place after a sequence of seven games that had yielded 3 pts and 0 wins, which “coincidentally” hadn’t featured him in the starting line-up. Yesterday’s shape was what I have been looking for, finally, with the most appropriate fit personnel in the right positions. This is why we were very competitive yesterday, and created like we know we can. We didn’t win yesterday because on the day we couldn’t finish, and Horgan had a poor game by his high standards. Giving away a soft, though genuine, penalty in only the sixth minute may have contributed to this.
I believe so. The only other one I can think of in the past five years is CMS at home to Crawley.
It'll run and run will the Horgan debate. Its probably unfair to single him out when we're simply not functioning well right now. And we've never really suited his style amazingly, the ball is in the air too much.
But personally while I'll always support him on the pitch, I can't help thinking that an international attacking mid should produce more than creating space in tier 3 of the league.
Maybe I don't understand footy as well as others though.
It's all about expectations with player assessments at times.
Freeman is still thought of largely as a promising player who just needs a chance , even though he's been here somewhere like 5 or 6 years now?
Whereas Horgan came in with a big rep, international player who was our big signing when moving into the championship.
Give Horgan a run like he got for a time last season and he will do a good job for the team.
The thing is we have what we have now and we need to encourage. It will be a long while before some of those injured players return and we have 3 months to the next transfer window.
Come on you blues and let’s smash the PNL.
I've long been frustrated with the lack of Horgan's end product but halfwya through last season I was definitely being bias so tried to start again! He finished the season reasonably well.
I thought first half Horgan was very good going forwards, he linked the play really well, scrapped for balls and was always willing to receive the ball. It was a shame one of the Forino, Vokes and Freeman efforts didn't go in.
The run he made and ball from Wing which he just couldn't control was something we've really been missing. A lot of fans around me were then on his back as they thought he should have controlled it and scored. Although he couldn't quite get there, it was exactly the run we've been missing so far this season. Someone going deep from midfield to get in behind the opposition back line.
Defensively he gave away the penalty, it was soft but these things happen sometimes. However, he did a lot of good defensive duty after that.
Second half, he had a few chances to get us away with attacks and couldn't get that final ball away, it was frustrating to see but equally as some have mentioned he had created that outlet to receive the ball and get us moving through the thirds. However, the biggest "culprit" ironically was Mehmeti missing the through ball to Horgan (i think it was Horgan) who had made a gut bursting run to get forward. Did all those around me get in the slightest bit annoyed and frustrated like they had with Horgan? No.
If we are keeping the ball on the deck, then I think he needs to play as he does do well when we are mixing it up. The game passes him by when we just hit it long.
What was so encouraging was that we were finally getting behind a defense yesterday, and it was against the top of the table team. Horgan's running from deep, Wing's range of passing and McCleary ability to stretch the defense really made a huge difference. Given the injury situation, I thought we played pretty well.
Plymouth clearly came out 2nd half with a better plan to nullify our threats and it worked.
I would have taken Vokes off after 65 minutes and brought Kaikai on. It may not have worked but the Plymouth back three had Vokes in their pocket 2nd half. That's how it goes sometimes. On Kaikai, what does he have to do to get some game time? Unless they are being careful after he came back from injury, I don't understand why he isn't on the pitch more often than not.
I wonder if GA would leave us for Middlesbrough.......
@Commoner I think that's actually a pretty good summing up of Horgan's display in Saturday. Part of his game was very good. He consistently made good runs and found himself on the ball in threatening areas. The pity was of course he just couldn't pick his passes, which is unlike him.
The 2 on 1 with Mehmeti and Horgan in the 2nd half was the most frustrating part of the match. Horgan was completely in the clear, no-one anywhere near him. Mehmeti had a fair bit of space himself and could possibly have taken it on, although I think the pass was the right option. Even a below par pass would have been ok, such was the space Horgan was in, but as it was, Mehmeti played it straight to the 1 defender who was covering, who I suspect couldn't believe his luck!
If Gape is out again Saturday, I hope we select the same line up. A bit more composure with the final ball and there was certainly enough encouragement for us on Saturday, to think that a result isn't too far off.
I know many are analyzing our team performance and that of some individuals but have we considered the Plymouth aspect in marking/closing down at all? as I've said before, it's a game with two teams.
Much easier to moan if you forget the opposition. They should just turn up, roll over., tummies tickled and Wycombe win. Frankly it was outrageous how Plymouth scored a soft penalty and defended the lead like it mattered
Somewhere, someplace, Ian Westlake is holding his beer…
The thing about Horgan is he’s one of those players you want to do well. Has the profile, pedigree and produces flashes etc.
He’ll wander into one of those pockets, receive the ball, swivel those little hips and lay it off. “He looks tidy”, you think, certainly by traditional Wycombe standards. But then moments later he’ll receive the ball in a promising position, swivel those hips again, but this time loop a cross to no-one 9/10. He isn’t and shouldn’t be the scapegoat for this season thus far. But pound-for-pound, I think his contribution has been sub-par.
Now who’s for the McCleary debate? Lauded as ‘the best player to wear the quarters’ but now suffering the same fate as Darren Currie, who in harder times was reduced to having all his deficiencies pointed out and all the good he’d done before was long forgotten.
I’m one of those who desperately wants Horgan to do well I kept wondering why an Irish international player can’t get more game time in a league one club. He’s not the worst player we’ve ever had but he’s a long way being off say a Scowen In terms of being an essential name on the team sheet.
I remember last season when people were banging on about McCleary being the best player we’ve ever had. To say that was a trifle premature would be an understatement. I would say he is the sort of player who you need on for the first 60 minutes and then taken off. Then we get back to when we use substitutes
@Malone I don't doubt that you are right but I can't find anything that clearly states this rule is correct. My Dad is a low level referee and he is unaware of it too. Can you show me where you have read this for my own sanity and understanding?
FA rule 11
Its quite clearly stated, you just have to read the wording
https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-11---offside
For clarity subsection 4 says....
4. Offences and sanctions
If an offside offence occurs, the referee awards an indirect free kick where the offence occurred, including if it is in the player’s own half of the field of play.
The offence, in this context, is playing the ball having been in an off side position when the ball was last played by a team mate. Thus its perfectly correct to award the free kick in your own half at times.
Law 11
4 Offences and sanctions
If an offside offence occurs, the referee awards an indirect free kick where the offence occurred, including if it is in the player’s own half of the field of play.
Second time that’s happened today!
You need to type faster @Chris
Will we be the first team to an incur an offside on our own penalty spot? The way the season is going, I would not bet against it.
Just returned to Gasroom after a much needed (but predictably short) break.
Smiled to myself before realising that the last word in your post is ‘though’ and not ‘thought’.
First post @williwycombe ? I know you’ve been on the Gasroom for seven years. Be good to hear from you more often.
I think McCleary suffers a bit from peaks and troughs, and because when the peaks are high you notice the troughs more than for others.
I felt he was poor at the weekend, and would put that down to rustiness after a few weeks out. However, too often in games this season, he's been a bit all over the place positionally, getting in Mehmeti's way and leaving the other flank way too open. At one point on Saturday, you could actually see McCleary leave the winger to attack Obita, then decide way too late to track back and Argyle came close.
He has the talent to take every game for himself, but recently hasn't shown that.
McCleary is a fantastic talent but I have one criticism. He sometimes gets frustrated and goes looking for the ball. More often than not this leads him to be stood next to Anis. Which quite frankly buggers them both up and leaves a gap on the opposite flank. He did this infuriatingly against Shrewsbury and again v Plymouth. Both games we were knocking on the door for a large part of the game and couldn't get a finish and everyone was frustrated.
When he hugs the wing and links up with the full back he is unplayable.
Another thing from Saturday we couldn't cross for sh1t. How is that not coached better?
Thanks for clearing this up. Not sure why any rule change was necessary! It's caused more confusion that it's solved!
I think his 2nd half performance was very much due to the fact the Plymouth identified him as a threat and nullified him. When he doesn't get joy, he becomes ineffective. I thought our crossing was ok for once - we created our best chances from diagonal crosses.
Does anyone have any stats on when we scored from a corner last? (not directly, a la JJ)
Not a bona fide “stat” as such, just a fallible memory - but the last one I remember was vs. Franchise in the play off semi 1st leg. Prior to that was the game immediately preceding it, at Burton (Vokes header). Don’t recall one this season so far.