Loads of people on social media and the press bemoaning the men’s game on the grounds that there is too much anti social behaviour in the stands and around stadiums.
No doubt there are some reprobates that attend England men’s games. Not defensible and deserves to be criticised. But gets blown way out of proportion in my view.
As said loads of deserved praise for the England women on other threads. Regarding your criticism of the mens game well I’ve been coming to Wycombe for too many years to count and it’s as safe as you can get, you can count the number of drunken brawls I’ve seen on the fingers of one hand and they were all opposition fans.
That and all the jingoistic nonsense puts me off wanting to go to a men's game, but that's not the same as not liking the team - who I do like and support.
Jacqui Oatley told an interesting story yesterday. Her local team Chelsea sell season tickets really cheaply. That means that Kingsmeadow is largely sold out. However as they are so cheap people won’t sometimes go if something else is on. So although it is not full you can’t get tickets. Given the chance to play at The Bridge Emma Hayes doesn’t want to give up what she sees as home advantage. So young kids on a high wanting to see the Lionesses will be losing out because of a will to win.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who choose the pubs they drink in and the times they attend because of a desire for a pleasant hassle free experience. It is the same when choosing whether to attend major events. Main difference is that you can't change your sporting allegiance just your physical attendance. Pretty sure that the smaller scale of things at Wycombe has been a positive for many over the years and that for example the scale of matches such as the Sunderland play-off would have felt intimidating. Far from being virtue signalling people just want to feel at ease.
I think a lot of people read/watch coverage of that sort of incident and believe England games are some sort of war zone and that most, if not all, football fans are all ne’er-do-wells.
My view is that in reality it is no different to any other event where booze, drugs and men are involved - you get a minority of idiots that can cause lots of problems.
Yet for some reason football supporters often seem to get tarred with the same brush, which I don’t think happens to the same extend when you see similar behaviour at music festivals, pubs, clubs etc.
I would suggest this type of post shows it surely does get 'blown out of proportion.'
You haven't referenced what happened at the Euro 2020 final.
I was there and it seems these were the main problems highlighted by the media:
Hundreds even thousands of people forced entry to the stadium without tickets. Terrible scenes, sometimes violent, which would have been horrific for many, and will understandably put people off attending in future. But who were these people? Mostly local opportunistic youths from what I saw ( I spoke to one standing near me to find out who he was and how he got in), by definition not 'England fans' otherwise they would have had a ticket. This should not have been unexpected and the authorities have recognised the security operation was woeful. This never usually happens at and England match, even when oversubscribed (frequently away). It was obviously a unique match so generalising it as a typical 'England experience' is ridiculous. Clearly everything about England's first final since 1966 at Wembley is atypical.
Someone setting fire to himself outside the stadium. What a complete moron. Who was this person? I don't know but would suggest he was one of thousands there for the 'atmosphere' who didn't have a ticket and most likely not a regular attendee.
Someone advertising himself doing cocaine in the stadium on social media. As has been discussed elsewhere, cocaine use is a growing trend across football, including at WWFC. To suggest everyone at England matches is charged up on charlie on this evidence, as some have done, is obviously ridiculous. Cocaine is used in pubs every Friday night. So everyone who goes to the pub on a Friday is a coke-head?
Using the same logic some use to pan 'England supporters', one could say 'The Euro final was marred by anti-social behaviour from non-England fans, therefore anyone who doesn't go to England matches, including my mother, is a hooligan.' To be sure there are many ongoing issues to be tackled. But is it blown out of proportion? For someone that attends many England matches, I would say most definitely yes, consistently. More so these days with 'one-line twitter commentators.'
There's trouble whenever England fans go abroad - we saw plenty of it at Euro 2016 and the Nations League finals in Portugal. That's not exclusive to England fans, but it's easy to understand why people wouldn't feel particularly comfortable about following the team around. As others have mentioned, the jingoism is also problematic - and you hear that loud and clear from the stands even just watching on TV.
Poor attempt at a wind up, but pretty synonymous with the digs going round social media at men's football, I think largely driven by the fact that even the most un-bothered men's football fan has nothing less than "Well done it's a great achievement" to the lionesses, rather than the vitriol that was expected.
There's a reason that football, particularly English football, has the following it has and like it or not a lot of the "bad" things being quoted about the men's game feed into that- the tribalism and "edge".
Women's football has a family feel which is great for families, and some people prefer that, good for them, but it's silly to say it's outright "better"
Also as LX1 said above, English football fans are an easy target, I went to a few England games during the euros (not the final), and it was a great atmosphere, the Germany game in particular was a life highlight. Everyone we met was friendly and buzzing for the game (even if some were buzzing for other reasons).
A few morons out of 90000 young adults (mainly men) is inevitable in any scenario, but the noise and passion in the ground that can create is incomparable to families and kids who have paid £15 for a family ticket and a day out
For me, the bottom line is that there is too much baggage attached for me to even remotely want to watch the men's England football team live. I honestly really don't care enough about them. There are all sorts of reasons I think that contribute to this, but I think chiefly it is that whilst in the majority of cases success stirs up the 'right' (in my world view) emotions of joy and pride, in a significant minority (rabidly supported by some of the press and other media) it brings the 'wrong' (as above) feelings of jingoism and latent superiority. I honestly don't think it is anywhere near as bad as it used to be, but for a significant proportion of my football watching life being an England team supporter was an actual embarrassment to the wider world and anyone in this country who didn't get football and I cant quite escape from that.
Having said that, I will be hoping England do well and (yea, likely) win in Qatar and will be jumping around in the unlikely event that they do. I do know however that the reports in the papers (sorry - generational thing) the next day won't have anything like the level of innocence and sheer joy that the women's game provided Sunday/Monday.
I watched the game with my children (and wife surprisingly) in the pub beer garden Sunday. The proportion of male/female/others was approximately 49/49/2 and even in that environment i had to try and explain to my children why half a dozen drunken men were singing a song about bombing Germany when we scored the first goal. Admittedly harmless, but still I found it a mildly depressing side note to a wonderful evening.
And sorry. That isn't meant to denigrate anyone who chooses to follow England (men's football team) live. I am sure (these days) that it is mostly an exciting and enjoyable experience. Just not for me.
Again you are proving the point of 'blown out of proportion.'
At Euro 2016, the 'trouble' was primarily at the Russia match, which thousands of Russian fighters had deliberately travelled to harm English people. Yes there were maybe a couple of hundred English people who weren't helping things, but we are talking proportion here. Can't remember anything from the other games, Wales v England was played out in a great atmosphere for example,
The Nations League finals, wow. I remember a 10 second clip of some young England fans smashing bottles in the main square being played on the news repetitively (I assume this is where your voracious research comes from). I was in Porto all week and, even with a mess up with the trains which could have sparked unsavoury scenes anywhere (it didn't, everyone waited patiently), it was one of the most relaxed 'tournaments' I have ever been to.
It is understandable why people don't feel particularly comfortable about following the team around. It's because as the above illustrates, lazy 'journalists' in the media massively blow things out of proportion. This is very counter-productive as 'normal' fans are discouraged from going, therefore increasing the proportion of morons. I think your posts have perfectly proved Glenactico's point.
Also I get a strong feeling that a lot of people like to score morality points by digging the England fans as a whole, they're proud to say they're not one of "them", and rather than supporting the team in a proper manner themselves (and seeing that following England isn't the hooligan fest they claim it us), prefer to accentuate the tiny minority of idiots that are sniffed out by desperate journalists scrambling to find the story their bosses want to keep them in a job, to get high horse bonus points.
I can accept that the violent scenes aren't widespread, but it certainly feels like the jingoistic sentiment is - it probably doesn't apply to the majority but is still present enough to be unsettling, and that's what really puts me off. I've heard from black England fans about some of the thoroughly unpleasant experiences they've had - stemming from the booting of the knee at the Romania last year. I'm not tarring all match-going England fans with the same brush, but I've seen enough to put me off.
The booing of the knee at the Germany and Denmark games was called out around me, by multiple groups. Again, it's a vocal minority that's amplified by the media and social media
Comments
Loads of people on social media and the press bemoaning the men’s game on the grounds that there is too much anti social behaviour in the stands and around stadiums.
No doubt there are some reprobates that attend England men’s games. Not defensible and deserves to be criticised. But gets blown way out of proportion in my view.
As said loads of deserved praise for the England women on other threads. Regarding your criticism of the mens game well I’ve been coming to Wycombe for too many years to count and it’s as safe as you can get, you can count the number of drunken brawls I’ve seen on the fingers of one hand and they were all opposition fans.
“Virtue signalling”
That and all the jingoistic nonsense puts me off wanting to go to a men's game, but that's not the same as not liking the team - who I do like and support.
Having watched the Euros I'd love to go and watch my local WSL team, unfortunately its Man Utd and I just can't do it.
Also, I don't think it can really be said it gets blown out of proportion after what happened at the Euro 2020 final.
Fair enough
Jacqui Oatley told an interesting story yesterday. Her local team Chelsea sell season tickets really cheaply. That means that Kingsmeadow is largely sold out. However as they are so cheap people won’t sometimes go if something else is on. So although it is not full you can’t get tickets. Given the chance to play at The Bridge Emma Hayes doesn’t want to give up what she sees as home advantage. So young kids on a high wanting to see the Lionesses will be losing out because of a will to win.
Liz Thatch or Richi will sort out that virtue signalling and wokism. It is a vital part of their plan(s).
I'm sure there are plenty of people who choose the pubs they drink in and the times they attend because of a desire for a pleasant hassle free experience. It is the same when choosing whether to attend major events. Main difference is that you can't change your sporting allegiance just your physical attendance. Pretty sure that the smaller scale of things at Wycombe has been a positive for many over the years and that for example the scale of matches such as the Sunderland play-off would have felt intimidating. Far from being virtue signalling people just want to feel at ease.
On this topic, a recent FaceBook post did amuse me.
MEN: Football's coming home!! It's coming home!! It's coming!!
WOMEN, 60 years later: FFS I'll get it myself.
Spot on
26 years later, surely.
You'll be happier here @Chris...
http://www.fc-utd.co.uk/squad/womens-team
I think a lot of people read/watch coverage of that sort of incident and believe England games are some sort of war zone and that most, if not all, football fans are all ne’er-do-wells.
My view is that in reality it is no different to any other event where booze, drugs and men are involved - you get a minority of idiots that can cause lots of problems.
Yet for some reason football supporters often seem to get tarred with the same brush, which I don’t think happens to the same extend when you see similar behaviour at music festivals, pubs, clubs etc.
You can currently get tickets to the women’s England vs. USA at Wembley in Oct. I imagine it will end up close to a sell out.
Over 65,000 sold already. I've tried a couple of times but haven't been able to stay in the queue long enough.
I would suggest this type of post shows it surely does get 'blown out of proportion.'
You haven't referenced what happened at the Euro 2020 final.
I was there and it seems these were the main problems highlighted by the media:
Using the same logic some use to pan 'England supporters', one could say 'The Euro final was marred by anti-social behaviour from non-England fans, therefore anyone who doesn't go to England matches, including my mother, is a hooligan.' To be sure there are many ongoing issues to be tackled. But is it blown out of proportion? For someone that attends many England matches, I would say most definitely yes, consistently. More so these days with 'one-line twitter commentators.'
There's trouble whenever England fans go abroad - we saw plenty of it at Euro 2016 and the Nations League finals in Portugal. That's not exclusive to England fans, but it's easy to understand why people wouldn't feel particularly comfortable about following the team around. As others have mentioned, the jingoism is also problematic - and you hear that loud and clear from the stands even just watching on TV.
Poor attempt at a wind up, but pretty synonymous with the digs going round social media at men's football, I think largely driven by the fact that even the most un-bothered men's football fan has nothing less than "Well done it's a great achievement" to the lionesses, rather than the vitriol that was expected.
There's a reason that football, particularly English football, has the following it has and like it or not a lot of the "bad" things being quoted about the men's game feed into that- the tribalism and "edge".
Women's football has a family feel which is great for families, and some people prefer that, good for them, but it's silly to say it's outright "better"
Also as LX1 said above, English football fans are an easy target, I went to a few England games during the euros (not the final), and it was a great atmosphere, the Germany game in particular was a life highlight. Everyone we met was friendly and buzzing for the game (even if some were buzzing for other reasons).
A few morons out of 90000 young adults (mainly men) is inevitable in any scenario, but the noise and passion in the ground that can create is incomparable to families and kids who have paid £15 for a family ticket and a day out
For me, the bottom line is that there is too much baggage attached for me to even remotely want to watch the men's England football team live. I honestly really don't care enough about them. There are all sorts of reasons I think that contribute to this, but I think chiefly it is that whilst in the majority of cases success stirs up the 'right' (in my world view) emotions of joy and pride, in a significant minority (rabidly supported by some of the press and other media) it brings the 'wrong' (as above) feelings of jingoism and latent superiority. I honestly don't think it is anywhere near as bad as it used to be, but for a significant proportion of my football watching life being an England team supporter was an actual embarrassment to the wider world and anyone in this country who didn't get football and I cant quite escape from that.
Having said that, I will be hoping England do well and (yea, likely) win in Qatar and will be jumping around in the unlikely event that they do. I do know however that the reports in the papers (sorry - generational thing) the next day won't have anything like the level of innocence and sheer joy that the women's game provided Sunday/Monday.
I watched the game with my children (and wife surprisingly) in the pub beer garden Sunday. The proportion of male/female/others was approximately 49/49/2 and even in that environment i had to try and explain to my children why half a dozen drunken men were singing a song about bombing Germany when we scored the first goal. Admittedly harmless, but still I found it a mildly depressing side note to a wonderful evening.
And sorry. That isn't meant to denigrate anyone who chooses to follow England (men's football team) live. I am sure (these days) that it is mostly an exciting and enjoyable experience. Just not for me.
Again you are proving the point of 'blown out of proportion.'
At Euro 2016, the 'trouble' was primarily at the Russia match, which thousands of Russian fighters had deliberately travelled to harm English people. Yes there were maybe a couple of hundred English people who weren't helping things, but we are talking proportion here. Can't remember anything from the other games, Wales v England was played out in a great atmosphere for example,
The Nations League finals, wow. I remember a 10 second clip of some young England fans smashing bottles in the main square being played on the news repetitively (I assume this is where your voracious research comes from). I was in Porto all week and, even with a mess up with the trains which could have sparked unsavoury scenes anywhere (it didn't, everyone waited patiently), it was one of the most relaxed 'tournaments' I have ever been to.
It is understandable why people don't feel particularly comfortable about following the team around. It's because as the above illustrates, lazy 'journalists' in the media massively blow things out of proportion. This is very counter-productive as 'normal' fans are discouraged from going, therefore increasing the proportion of morons. I think your posts have perfectly proved Glenactico's point.
This.
Also I get a strong feeling that a lot of people like to score morality points by digging the England fans as a whole, they're proud to say they're not one of "them", and rather than supporting the team in a proper manner themselves (and seeing that following England isn't the hooligan fest they claim it us), prefer to accentuate the tiny minority of idiots that are sniffed out by desperate journalists scrambling to find the story their bosses want to keep them in a job, to get high horse bonus points.
@Malone is notoriously shaky when identifying players’ names and personal characteristics, especially heights.
Sold out already.
I can accept that the violent scenes aren't widespread, but it certainly feels like the jingoistic sentiment is - it probably doesn't apply to the majority but is still present enough to be unsettling, and that's what really puts me off. I've heard from black England fans about some of the thoroughly unpleasant experiences they've had - stemming from the booting of the knee at the Romania last year. I'm not tarring all match-going England fans with the same brush, but I've seen enough to put me off.
1 month later if we include the England u19s winning their euros.
I was happy with tall rather than your precision of measurements though
The booing of the knee at the Germany and Denmark games was called out around me, by multiple groups. Again, it's a vocal minority that's amplified by the media and social media