I don't know why they can't just keep all the Derby stuff in house, and deal with it in private. All this interview has done has riled people up again when it had all quietened own. I'd have thought in this day and age clubs would be doing all they can to stop any potential trouble between fans !?
Derby cheated us out of a place in the Championship. A second season at that level would have been paradigm shifting for a club like ours. I’m glad to hear an update for just that reason. And RC isn’t responsible for the behavior of Derby’s lunatic fringe is he?
Ultimately we lost our league position because we only secured 43 points that season. You can argue that Derby's cheating was a factor in that, but there were multiple other factors too, some in my opinion much larger.
There's a narrative that's developed that it's solely because of Derby we were relegated and therefore it should all be blamed on them. I don't really buy it.
@Last_Quarter financial cheats will continue to financially cheat as long as they get away with it. We wouldn’t be so blasé if we’d discovered they’d played with an extra man in some of their crucial league games.
Anyone seen the Torygraph sport? Roo's agent Paul Stretford being investigated for paying staff and player wages at Derby to get Kirchner in. This stuff is just crazy.
In my opinion we got relegated because we dropped points from winning positions...was it Luton and Swansea?...during our late good run. Derby would not have survived if not for those two games.
You're not wrong @eric_plant we had a poor first half of the season and some head in hands moments but for me losing and drawing those games during the period when we seemed to be on a toll, Tafs and Uche were back and survival looked eminently possible were perhaps the most pivotal. Getting six points rather than the one would have made it academic.
It certainly doesnt "rile me up" RC reminding fans that there was an undertaking reached between WWFC & Quantama regarding our claim and that it was contingent on a successful sale of DCFC.
I equally, find it hard to believe that the saner element of DCFC fans would be riled by thism but do accept that the facetwat using, knuckle dragging contingent would get riled at the drop of a hat just because nothing could ever be their fault.
Whether we were cheated is a different debate, my personal view is that by failing to adhere to S&P rules DCFC cheated all those clubs that ensured they legitimately abided by them. This does not mean that all these clubs should receive financial compensation.
I am also of the view that the EFL must share culpability for failing to apply their rules vigorously & promptly in the interests of the league and its member clubs (given the recent nonsense perhaps they too have bought into the nonsense that clubs like DCFC are "too big & important to be allowed to fail".)
@eric_plant Of course there are lots of ‘what-if’s’ around that season;
what if Uche and Taff had been fit before January?
what if we’d had a proper pre-season?
what is we’d had proper recovery times between games?
what if we hadn’t suffered a Covid outbreak just as we were gaining momentum?
what if the goals not awarded against Watford, Luton and Derby had been?
what if Jason hadn’t scored a comedy OG at Preston?
and probably half a dozen more at least
but the only ‘what-if,’ that affects all 46 games is ‘what if Derby hadn’t cheated?’ The answer is that they probably wouldn’t have relegated us on goal difference.
but the only ‘what-if,’ that affects all 46 games is ‘what if Derby hadn’t cheated?’ The answer is that they probably wouldn’t have relegated us on goal difference.
This for me sums it up perfectly. Wycombe went in to that last game thinking third from bottom would see them safe with a certain points deduction for Derby. They cheated. We directly suffered.
I'm absolutely in the DCFC didn't abide by the rules camp, and should have been punished much sooner for their wrong doing, but let's be clear those were historic offenses and not rule breaks during the 2020/21 season.
The view that DCFC cheated us out of our place in the Championship is, in my view, not correct. As RC himself admits, they gained the system to delay publishing the true accounts until after the start of the 2021/22 season as the ruling by the appeals panel allowed them to.
If that had been us in their position what would we have wanted RC to do? Publish revised account asap and as a result be dropped a division or delay publishing the revised accounts, as allowed, and not be dropped a division?
@Twizz DCFC were still enjoying the fruits of their cheating in 2020/21 season and doing everything behind the scenes to delay the inevitable outcome - Mel Morris is on record saying precisely that. They didn't correct their overspend but instead were outlaying more than our entire playing budget on their manager alone, they started cheating way back and continued cheating until the administrators were eventually called in. One could be forgiven for suspecting that the cheating did not stop there, but it is for the administrators to account for their actions before that can be established or not.
It's hard to fathom how even the most contrary poster on the gasroom could possibly argue that Derby's shenanigans, that resulted in them ending up a mere point ahead of us wasn't any sort of factor in them staying up and us going down.
I guess you can look at this in many different ways.
Points earned on pitch in that season
Rotherham 42
Wycombe 43
Derby 44
Sheff Wed 47
Huddersfield 49
As the second worse team (amazing performance that that was given our resources and size) hard to argue that relegation was not deserved.
Of course we could and perhaps should have benefitted from two teams having points deductions but perhaps that would have been outrageous good luck rather than deserved.
Also had Derby been deducted points say on 30 April and Rotherham believed that they had a chance of staying up, would they still have drawn their last three games. Would we have won our last two if we knew it really mattered rather than believing we were likely already down. Nobody can possibly know.
Regardless it has happened. It can't be changed. Surely time to move on and look forward to 22/23 not back at (perhaps manufactured) hard luck stories in 20/21. If Couhig gets us a few quid in compensation that's a nice bonus.
I have always felt that points deductions penalise the wrong people, namely the playing/coaching staff and the fans, who have little to no control over the actions of owner and board.
Perhaps the penalties should be financial against those who are responsible for the rule breaking, which could not only be fines to individuals, but also such things as in-bound transfer embargoes (immediate), imposed wage or budget caps for the next season etc. whilst the latter do to an extent penalise the playing staff they would have fair warning and an opportunity to ply their trade elsewhere.
The problem with the current Sustainability & Profit rules are that the EFL finds it impossible to move with any speed when applying the allowable penalties, the system is too easy to game for those with the brass neck to do it & changes require a majority of the 72 members to vote for them (turkeys & xmas anyone?).
@Erroll_Sims This 'punishing the fans' argument is strange, why should Wycombe's fans be punished when we too had little or no control over the actions of their owner and board?
Surely one result of Derby County cheating the financial fair play rules, spending money that they didn't have was that they had a better team / manager than if they had followed the rules. That still applied in the 2020 /21 season and so I don't agree with the view that their points on the pitch entitled them to a place in the Championship, what happens on the pitch is affected by what happens off it. No club does only exists on the pitch.
The ownership of the Derby County knew that they had broken the rules and gave spurious reasons for delaying publishing the accounts. Other clubs who have been facing a points deduction have not loaded lying on to of cheating. I would lose respect for any club that lied and cheated including our own.
Those lies at the end of our Championship season were cheating as much as any handball on the goal line. If Derby County hadn't given false reasons for not publishing accounts then we would have at least two seasons in the Championship.
It is also a possibility if they had taken the medicine of a points deduction when it was prescibed then we could be playing them in the Championship this next season.
It seems off the field cheating is more abstract to some. To me saying we deserved to go down is a little like saying a doping athlete did not disadvantage the silver medal competitor because the cheat in question was doping for three years before that.
Derby were total shit that season. How much worse could they possibly have been had they not broken the rules?
The fact is no-one knows, so to say they "cheated is out of a place in the league" can't be proved either way.
On a wider note, their transgression did not go unpunished. They were deducted points and fined for it. They are now on the precipice of going out of existence completely.
My natural instinct is to empathise with their supporters. There were fans at that Burton game at the end of last season gleefully singing "we're having a party when Derby die". Thought that was pretty dire myself
Comments
Wouldn't it be great if we all got a photo shoot holding up a dress shirt and shaking hands with our new manager when starting a new job.
I don't know why they can't just keep all the Derby stuff in house, and deal with it in private. All this interview has done has riled people up again when it had all quietened own. I'd have thought in this day and age clubs would be doing all they can to stop any potential trouble between fans !?
A lot of us are pretty disappointed we lost our league position due to cheating. I'm glad he's given us an update on the situation.
Derby cheated us out of a place in the Championship. A second season at that level would have been paradigm shifting for a club like ours. I’m glad to hear an update for just that reason. And RC isn’t responsible for the behavior of Derby’s lunatic fringe is he?
Ultimately we lost our league position because we only secured 43 points that season. You can argue that Derby's cheating was a factor in that, but there were multiple other factors too, some in my opinion much larger.
There's a narrative that's developed that it's solely because of Derby we were relegated and therefore it should all be blamed on them. I don't really buy it.
@Last_Quarter financial cheats will continue to financially cheat as long as they get away with it. We wouldn’t be so blasé if we’d discovered they’d played with an extra man in some of their crucial league games.
And those contractors are often known to only have signed for xxx length of time as well.
I seem to remember some kid going viral for doing this when he 'signed' for Asda
Anyone seen the Torygraph sport? Roo's agent Paul Stretford being investigated for paying staff and player wages at Derby to get Kirchner in. This stuff is just crazy.
That's what I linked yesterday. Hmmm...
Sorry mate...I must have missed it. I thought it was odd none of our web scourers had not already seen it! 😁 not like me to be ahead of the curve.
I wasn't hmmm-ing you haha, just reacting to the latest episode of The Absolute State of Derby County
In my opinion we got relegated because we dropped points from winning positions...was it Luton and Swansea?...during our late good run. Derby would not have survived if not for those two games.
Derby didn't cheat us out of a place in the Championship.
When it's such a small points margin you could pick many critical moments, or key games.
Be it Horgan missing 5mins into game 1, or conceding in the 90th min.
A goal ruled out against Watford that even Foster said was ridiciulous.
The well onside goal ruled out for offside (can't remember v who).
But if you want one moment, surely it's losing to Derby with a 94th min winner at our place in Feb.
We get 1 more point, they lose 2 points and we'd have stayed up.
I don't think it was a free kick either
You're not wrong @eric_plant we had a poor first half of the season and some head in hands moments but for me losing and drawing those games during the period when we seemed to be on a toll, Tafs and Uche were back and survival looked eminently possible were perhaps the most pivotal. Getting six points rather than the one would have made it academic.
It certainly doesnt "rile me up" RC reminding fans that there was an undertaking reached between WWFC & Quantama regarding our claim and that it was contingent on a successful sale of DCFC.
I equally, find it hard to believe that the saner element of DCFC fans would be riled by thism but do accept that the facetwat using, knuckle dragging contingent would get riled at the drop of a hat just because nothing could ever be their fault.
Whether we were cheated is a different debate, my personal view is that by failing to adhere to S&P rules DCFC cheated all those clubs that ensured they legitimately abided by them. This does not mean that all these clubs should receive financial compensation.
I am also of the view that the EFL must share culpability for failing to apply their rules vigorously & promptly in the interests of the league and its member clubs (given the recent nonsense perhaps they too have bought into the nonsense that clubs like DCFC are "too big & important to be allowed to fail".)
@eric_plant Of course there are lots of ‘what-if’s’ around that season;
what if Uche and Taff had been fit before January?
what if we’d had a proper pre-season?
what is we’d had proper recovery times between games?
what if we hadn’t suffered a Covid outbreak just as we were gaining momentum?
what if the goals not awarded against Watford, Luton and Derby had been?
what if Jason hadn’t scored a comedy OG at Preston?
and probably half a dozen more at least
but the only ‘what-if,’ that affects all 46 games is ‘what if Derby hadn’t cheated?’ The answer is that they probably wouldn’t have relegated us on goal difference.
but the only ‘what-if,’ that affects all 46 games is ‘what if Derby hadn’t cheated?’ The answer is that they probably wouldn’t have relegated us on goal difference.
This for me sums it up perfectly. Wycombe went in to that last game thinking third from bottom would see them safe with a certain points deduction for Derby. They cheated. We directly suffered.
I'm absolutely in the DCFC didn't abide by the rules camp, and should have been punished much sooner for their wrong doing, but let's be clear those were historic offenses and not rule breaks during the 2020/21 season.
The view that DCFC cheated us out of our place in the Championship is, in my view, not correct. As RC himself admits, they gained the system to delay publishing the true accounts until after the start of the 2021/22 season as the ruling by the appeals panel allowed them to.
If that had been us in their position what would we have wanted RC to do? Publish revised account asap and as a result be dropped a division or delay publishing the revised accounts, as allowed, and not be dropped a division?
@Twizz DCFC were still enjoying the fruits of their cheating in 2020/21 season and doing everything behind the scenes to delay the inevitable outcome - Mel Morris is on record saying precisely that. They didn't correct their overspend but instead were outlaying more than our entire playing budget on their manager alone, they started cheating way back and continued cheating until the administrators were eventually called in. One could be forgiven for suspecting that the cheating did not stop there, but it is for the administrators to account for their actions before that can be established or not.
100%
It's hard to fathom how even the most contrary poster on the gasroom could possibly argue that Derby's shenanigans, that resulted in them ending up a mere point ahead of us wasn't any sort of factor in them staying up and us going down.
I guess you can look at this in many different ways.
Points earned on pitch in that season
Rotherham 42
Wycombe 43
Derby 44
Sheff Wed 47
Huddersfield 49
As the second worse team (amazing performance that that was given our resources and size) hard to argue that relegation was not deserved.
Of course we could and perhaps should have benefitted from two teams having points deductions but perhaps that would have been outrageous good luck rather than deserved.
Also had Derby been deducted points say on 30 April and Rotherham believed that they had a chance of staying up, would they still have drawn their last three games. Would we have won our last two if we knew it really mattered rather than believing we were likely already down. Nobody can possibly know.
Regardless it has happened. It can't be changed. Surely time to move on and look forward to 22/23 not back at (perhaps manufactured) hard luck stories in 20/21. If Couhig gets us a few quid in compensation that's a nice bonus.
@DevC So your argument is that we should ignore the financial fair play rules and act as if everything was all above board?
I have always felt that points deductions penalise the wrong people, namely the playing/coaching staff and the fans, who have little to no control over the actions of owner and board.
Perhaps the penalties should be financial against those who are responsible for the rule breaking, which could not only be fines to individuals, but also such things as in-bound transfer embargoes (immediate), imposed wage or budget caps for the next season etc. whilst the latter do to an extent penalise the playing staff they would have fair warning and an opportunity to ply their trade elsewhere.
The problem with the current Sustainability & Profit rules are that the EFL finds it impossible to move with any speed when applying the allowable penalties, the system is too easy to game for those with the brass neck to do it & changes require a majority of the 72 members to vote for them (turkeys & xmas anyone?).
@Erroll_Sims This 'punishing the fans' argument is strange, why should Wycombe's fans be punished when we too had little or no control over the actions of their owner and board?
Surely one result of Derby County cheating the financial fair play rules, spending money that they didn't have was that they had a better team / manager than if they had followed the rules. That still applied in the 2020 /21 season and so I don't agree with the view that their points on the pitch entitled them to a place in the Championship, what happens on the pitch is affected by what happens off it. No club does only exists on the pitch.
The ownership of the Derby County knew that they had broken the rules and gave spurious reasons for delaying publishing the accounts. Other clubs who have been facing a points deduction have not loaded lying on to of cheating. I would lose respect for any club that lied and cheated including our own.
Those lies at the end of our Championship season were cheating as much as any handball on the goal line. If Derby County hadn't given false reasons for not publishing accounts then we would have at least two seasons in the Championship.
It is also a possibility if they had taken the medicine of a points deduction when it was prescibed then we could be playing them in the Championship this next season.
It seems off the field cheating is more abstract to some. To me saying we deserved to go down is a little like saying a doping athlete did not disadvantage the silver medal competitor because the cheat in question was doping for three years before that.
Three wrongs don't make a right!
Derby were total shit that season. How much worse could they possibly have been had they not broken the rules?
The fact is no-one knows, so to say they "cheated is out of a place in the league" can't be proved either way.
On a wider note, their transgression did not go unpunished. They were deducted points and fined for it. They are now on the precipice of going out of existence completely.
My natural instinct is to empathise with their supporters. There were fans at that Burton game at the end of last season gleefully singing "we're having a party when Derby die". Thought that was pretty dire myself