You will always have streaming even if all kids are in one school. Not sure there is a massive difference tbh.
While there might be a case for getting rid of grammars, my priority would first be getting rid (or atleast heavily taxing) private schools and second getting rid of single sex schools.
I think that's an oversimplification as the NHS delivers a lot of services through private companies, and I dread to think what state it would be in without them.
There is a very strong argument that all children should get the same opportunity in life (and clearly the point about private schools is to give your child a better chance) and that all people should get the same standard of healthcare (and again private healthcare exists solely to give you better quicker healthcare than the state can provide).
On the other hand people buying these services privately do subsidise the rest of us by effectively paying twice through tax and private cost.
As always not quite as simple as a "black and white issue" but for me I would at least tax them more heavily and ideally get rid altogether. The aim must be to bring state education and healthcare up to such a level that there is no point going private but we seem to be moving ever further away from that goal.
By the way I disagree with the principle here. Not everything should be decided in Westminster and common across the whole country. If the people of say the North East want a state grammar school system and the people of the South West want a comprehensive system that is what they should have.
I am not sure I agree with all aspects of the Scottish gender bill but it is disgraceful that people elected to represent people in England are daring to overrule a policy chosen by the elected representatives of Scotland.
The NHS is great, and needs to be protected etc etc.
But as a lowest level sportsman, I remember the NHS wait years ago was about 6 weeks just to get into the system (dread to think now)!, whereas private would pretty much be next day.
If you've got the chance to do the latter, especially if it's part of your work terms, you'd certainly take it!
Even the state selective grammar system held onto by Bucks is now open to affluent abuse. The county’s education system and proximity to London has made housing stock attractive and therefore very expensive bringing in wealthy parents easing out working class families. In my day you sat the 11+ at state primary and if you ‘passed’ you went to one of the grammars or high schools (the arbitrary age of 11 to test once and for all potential is a separate moot point). Now wealthy folk move to the county, send their young kids to Prep schools to hot house them for the 11+ with the aim of getting a free senior education when they ‘pass’, arguably at the expense of more able but less privileged under 11’s.
Maidstone Grammar School was sometimes referred to as a Public School, even though no fees were involved, because (at least as I’ve always understood it) the headmaster attended/was a member of (whatever - I don’t know) the Headmaster’s’ Conference.
I did ok there, albeit with no aptitude for any subjects other than languages and very basic (ie ‘O’ level) mathematics. Essentially, what was described as the three ‘R’s. And, incredible as it may seem, it was only today (whilst having a P) that I realised that those subjects should be described as RAW, not the three Rs.
I work at a grammar school and also oversee several tutoring groups in the evenings.
11+ tutoring is a huge industry, the amount of kids taking 11+ lessons must be a factor of 30 or more higher than GCSE or A-level tutoring.
There are many children at the school who are not prepared for the workload or demands of a grammar school, but they are there on account of the intense tutoring they got for verbal reasoning etc.
Likewise I know of many incredibly able students who missed out because, for whatever reason, they were not offered the same coaching.
It is also clear that far fewer students come from Wycombe now, with many of them coming from more affluent towns such as Gerrards Cross and Beaconsfield. The car park on open evenings is chock full of very expensive cars.
It’s not a system I would choose, but it’s the one we’re in so what is one supposed to do?
Just caught up with this, @Chris. Ties in with my understanding of the situation at Maidstone GS. The latter was founded in 1549. I joined a couple of weeks before my 11th birthday in 1949, the four hundredth anniversary.
Good point, @eric_plant. I’ve no idea how a “what if” thread in relation to the football club transmogrified into a debate about education but I’m fairly sure I can’t be blamed on this occasion.
Comments
You will always have streaming even if all kids are in one school. Not sure there is a massive difference tbh.
While there might be a case for getting rid of grammars, my priority would first be getting rid (or atleast heavily taxing) private schools and second getting rid of single sex schools.
Private schools are an abomination. There's no justification for their existence whatsoever.
Do you think the same about private healthcare?
I think that's an oversimplification as the NHS delivers a lot of services through private companies, and I dread to think what state it would be in without them.
Confusingly no.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Grammar_School
"Rugby isn't a sport, but a class riddled past time".
There is a very strong argument that all children should get the same opportunity in life (and clearly the point about private schools is to give your child a better chance) and that all people should get the same standard of healthcare (and again private healthcare exists solely to give you better quicker healthcare than the state can provide).
On the other hand people buying these services privately do subsidise the rest of us by effectively paying twice through tax and private cost.
As always not quite as simple as a "black and white issue" but for me I would at least tax them more heavily and ideally get rid altogether. The aim must be to bring state education and healthcare up to such a level that there is no point going private but we seem to be moving ever further away from that goal.
By the way I disagree with the principle here. Not everything should be decided in Westminster and common across the whole country. If the people of say the North East want a state grammar school system and the people of the South West want a comprehensive system that is what they should have.
I am not sure I agree with all aspects of the Scottish gender bill but it is disgraceful that people elected to represent people in England are daring to overrule a policy chosen by the elected representatives of Scotland.
No. Several of the RGSs are now independent schools.
That's a fair point, although I think we're a long way off such things being decided on a regional level like that.
Definitely.
People moan about grammar schools, but at least you have a chance of getting in.
Wycombe Abbey for instance charge over 40k a year for their boarders.
Rules out all but the incredibly rich.
The NHS is great, and needs to be protected etc etc.
But as a lowest level sportsman, I remember the NHS wait years ago was about 6 weeks just to get into the system (dread to think now)!, whereas private would pretty much be next day.
If you've got the chance to do the latter, especially if it's part of your work terms, you'd certainly take it!
I'd expect my kids to be learning advanced magic for that kind of money
While we're here, MPs should be banned from using private education and private healthcare
It certainly doesn’t inspire one with confidence if leaders don’t see the state education as suitable for their offspring.
The more the state system is run down, the bigger advantage there is for little Tarquin with his private education and the wider attainment gap.
Even the state selective grammar system held onto by Bucks is now open to affluent abuse. The county’s education system and proximity to London has made housing stock attractive and therefore very expensive bringing in wealthy parents easing out working class families. In my day you sat the 11+ at state primary and if you ‘passed’ you went to one of the grammars or high schools (the arbitrary age of 11 to test once and for all potential is a separate moot point). Now wealthy folk move to the county, send their young kids to Prep schools to hot house them for the 11+ with the aim of getting a free senior education when they ‘pass’, arguably at the expense of more able but less privileged under 11’s.
If we banned private schools, we'd also have to ban private tutoring. Not saying we shouldn't, just saying it would be very difficult to enforce.
And I'm sure kids get tutored as high as A levels, so it's not like it's exclusively an 11+ problem.
Finland has a very interesting approach to education that I think there's a lot to be said for.
Maidstone Grammar School was sometimes referred to as a Public School, even though no fees were involved, because (at least as I’ve always understood it) the headmaster attended/was a member of (whatever - I don’t know) the Headmaster’s’ Conference.
I did ok there, albeit with no aptitude for any subjects other than languages and very basic (ie ‘O’ level) mathematics. Essentially, what was described as the three ‘R’s. And, incredible as it may seem, it was only today (whilst having a P) that I realised that those subjects should be described as RAW, not the three Rs.
I work at a grammar school and also oversee several tutoring groups in the evenings.
11+ tutoring is a huge industry, the amount of kids taking 11+ lessons must be a factor of 30 or more higher than GCSE or A-level tutoring.
There are many children at the school who are not prepared for the workload or demands of a grammar school, but they are there on account of the intense tutoring they got for verbal reasoning etc.
Likewise I know of many incredibly able students who missed out because, for whatever reason, they were not offered the same coaching.
It is also clear that far fewer students come from Wycombe now, with many of them coming from more affluent towns such as Gerrards Cross and Beaconsfield. The car park on open evenings is chock full of very expensive cars.
It’s not a system I would choose, but it’s the one we’re in so what is one supposed to do?
I personally like to moan about it on a football message board
Just caught up with this, @Chris. Ties in with my understanding of the situation at Maidstone GS. The latter was founded in 1549. I joined a couple of weeks before my 11th birthday in 1949, the four hundredth anniversary.
Plenty come from far further afield too - I went to school with kids from Hong Kong and Japan.
Also, I can't confirm this, but I strongly believe that RGS let some kids based on their rugby-playing ability.
Good point, @eric_plant. I’ve no idea how a “what if” thread in relation to the football club transmogrified into a debate about education but I’m fairly sure I can’t be blamed on this occasion.
I know we call it derailing, but there must be a more technical term?
You do seem though @micra to be diverting into a discussion about your cat and its struggles with its gender identity...............
I’m not an authority on many things in life, but I can categorically say this is untrue.