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COVID 19 and Club's Vaccination Status

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  • @Lloyd2084, everyone has to do what they are comfortable with as far as mask wearing is concerned. I personally don’t wear a mask outdoors but I do in shops or on public transport.
    I certainly wouldn’t be upset if the government brought in a rule that all supporters must wear a mask when attending a football match.
    A small price to pay for some added safety if that is the requirement downline.

  • @Blue_since_1990 If they did that, how would it be policed? I know that 85% of the customers would accept it and follow the rules but what would the club do to those that don't? Would people be removed from the ground if they wore one to get in and then took it off once inside?

  • edited October 2021

    Ok. I hate upsetting people. I trust the Gasroom pretty much and don't dislike anyone on it. A global pandemic really needs global action.

    Even so I can't leave this debate alone.

    For me there is a general moral case, it is a global pandemic, the worst in most living people's memory, it is particularly nasty because a mild version and at the beginning of an infection you can be infectious without knowing it and at the other of the spectrum it can kill you. There is a far from negliable chance of it killing you if you are vulnerable - as an older person, a person with a lung disease or a person with an immune disease, or indeed a person with bad luck. The virus spreads from person to person in the air that we breathe.

    The main thing a member of the general public can do to reduce the risk to everybody is to be vaccinated. That makes a huge cut in the chances of catching it and cuts the chances of you giving it someone else if you do catch it. You can also wear a mask in places where you are sharing air, that reduces the chances of you catching it by a small amount and greatly reduces the chances of you giving it to someone else if you have it and don't know it.

    That seems to me to be much more of an obligation to be vaccinated than the obligation to be a safe car driver - for which the government does licence people.
    Google say "There were 1,472 fatalities in reported road accidents in 2020, a decrease of 16% from the previous year." That is around 4 on an average day.
    Yesterday's figures for daily Covid deaths was 143. That means on average that currently Covid is currently 30 times more likely to kill you than a car accident. We do say it is a personal choice about what sort of car you drive but there are many rules about how you should drive it.
    Maybe the government shouldn't mandate what you should put in your body, it certainly tells you what you shouldn't put in your body. The government only allows you to drive a car if you meet a minimum standard. I personally don't see why if you refuse to mitiagate against killing other people with a disease the government shouldn't forbid you certain activities.

    Aside from government rules, I think the moral obligation to be vaccinated lies a bit heavier on a football player and a football team than it does on Joe Average, because they are identified with and admired by so many and they are seen in close contact with others in public on a weekly basis, for our team even during an International Break.
    In the absence of any sort of action or guidance from a government and sports ministry who were quite happy to restart football So I would say that the club ( all of manager / owner / trust ) have a right to ask a player their vaccination status. The player has a right not to disclose, but then the club has the right to try to persaude, and then take sanctions against a player who will not disclose or be vaccinated, up to not picking them for a game, although I don't think it would come to that at Wycombe.

    I don't think it is a case of forcing people to be vaccinated. It is a case of taking opportunities and freedoms away from those who choose not to be vaccinated, because by being unvaccinated, the unvaccinated are by choice taking away opportunites and freedoms from those who are particuarly at risk from the disease.
    ,
    There is also a personal case
    Personally I hope as many people are double jabbed as can be, so that when I am physically able to come to Adams Park after heart surgery, hopefully in around 3 months time, at a time when I will probably more at risk than I am at the moment, I hope that then the numbers of cases will have fallen enough for me to feel safe, which I reckon by rule of thumb would be at close to the risk in a car and coming to a game on the M25 I am absolutely on maximum attention because it only just feels safe. So to feel ok at football as a post heart op patient on the terrace I would want the number of deaths (and cases) from Covid to have fallen by a factor of 30.

    If you can be vaccinated, please be vaccinated. Your actions or inactions, in the name of freedom of choice or whatever, affect the choices and freedoms and health of others.

    Credit to @bluntphil for thinking of others, even when it meant that he had to do something really difficult. Credit to @niebieski, @DJWYC14 and @Wendoverman who did something which was varying degrees of difficult for honourable reasons.

    Apologies for the inevitable typos.

    So - one final thing before the debate continues - please don't stop doing the predictions even if you disagree with my views - I need to feel a bit part of our games!

  • @railwaysteve said:
    I don't think it is a case of forcing people to be vaccinated. It is a case of taking opportunities and freedoms away from those who choose not to be vaccinated, because by being unvaccinated, the unvaccinated are by choice taking away opportunites and freedoms from those who are particuarly at risk from the disease.

    Nail. On. Head.

  • Not really going to weigh in too much, only to say that these kinds of conversations start with talking about the greater good, and quickly devolve in to people talking about "so called freedoms". So called freedoms? If you believe in human rights at all, you have to acknowledge that people have a right to bodily integrity, as well a right to freedom of thought and conscience. These are not "so called freedoms", they're some of the most basic pillars of our way of life. Human rights, by definition, exist regardless of the costs or benefits of upholding them in any particular case. I do think that societies mess with that sort of thing at their peril.

    This stuff just gets so nasty so fast. Calling Callum Robinson an idiot because he's not getting vaccinated? The man has had covid twice, there's a very good chance that his naturally acquired immunity is far superior to the soon-to-wane immunity I acquired from being vaccinated. If he thinks that's reason enough not to expose himself to the tiny amount of risk one takes with the vaccine, fair enough, that's his lookout. Doesn't make him an idiot who needs to be "put in his place".

  • edited October 2021

    Nah, he is an idiot. Having had it twice might put him at less risk, but he can still spread it more easily than a vaccinated person. It's just inconsiderate.

  • @railwaysteve 143 deaths WITH Covid-19 mentioned, not FROM Covid-19 specifically. Far too readily quoted or referenced by many as specifically COVID deaths. Sorry but this is an important distinction.

  • @ReturnToSenda said:

    @railwaysteve said:
    I don't think it is a case of forcing people to be vaccinated. It is a case of taking opportunities and freedoms away from those who choose not to be vaccinated, because by being unvaccinated, the unvaccinated are by choice taking away opportunites and freedoms from those who are particuarly at risk from the disease.

    Nail. On. Head.

    Just wondering, do you think that people who have had covid and therefore decide not to get vaccinated should have their opportunities and freedoms taken away?

  • @therabbittest said:

    @ReturnToSenda said:

    @railwaysteve said:
    I don't think it is a case of forcing people to be vaccinated. It is a case of taking opportunities and freedoms away from those who choose not to be vaccinated, because by being unvaccinated, the unvaccinated are by choice taking away opportunites and freedoms from those who are particuarly at risk from the disease.

    Nail. On. Head.

    Just wondering, do you think that people who have had covid and therefore decide not to get vaccinated should have their opportunities and freedoms taken away?

    See my point about Callum Robinson. Having had it doesn't take away the need to get vaccinated.

  • Also, what freedoms would people have taken away from them? Being allowed into a nightclub, for example, is not a fundamental human right. Lots of places have conditions of entry.

  • @Otter87, I am simply saying that for me it is a small price to pay for me personally. I have not thought through the policing angle and I am sure there would be issues to address.
    If it came down to - wear a mask and watch my team or don’t wear a mask and be excluded, I would wear one and have no issue at all.

  • @ReturnToSenda said:
    @TheDancingYak Of course people have a choice whether or not to get it - but they don't have to be accommodated (e.g. if vaccine passports ever become a thing - although that seems unlikely now). Just like certain countries won't let you enter if you haven't had certain jabs.

    Pretty much my feeling. Feel free to opt out of vaccination but don't expect to able to have the same freedoms as others who chose to.
    Totally respect @bluntphil honesty about needle phobia as that is my thing too. Been through some pretty yukky things with no needles present and it is not something that is 'ooo I don't like needles' no one likes needles, it is something that haunts you afterwards. And I wish I didn't have my own personal kryptonite, I sure as hell don't do it for attention.

  • @Blue_since_1990 said:
    @Otter87, I am simply saying that for me it is a small price to pay for me personally. I have not thought through the policing angle and I am sure there would be issues to address.
    If it came down to - wear a mask and watch my team or don’t wear a mask and be excluded, I would wear one and have no issue at all.

    Bloody hell, I read that as 'executed' at first!

  • Hahaha. You may well be if you don’t wear one at Newcastle ??

  • Post of the effing century @railwaysteve.

  • Also, Callum Robinson is an idiot for every possible reason to call someone an idiot. He's fallen out the idiot tree and smashed his head on every idiot branch on the way down. He's more idiot than I thought it was possible to be.

  • I'll partially disagree from a scientific POV with @ReturnToSenda , in that having had covid would be a reasonable reason to delay having the vaccine for around 3-4 months - I'd have to look at the data again, but it's around that point that the protection starts to differ enough to matter.

    Not sure what's going to change in that short period, but it's a small point.

  • @Right_in_the_Middle said:

    @Username said:

    @Right_in_the_Middle said:
    Vaccination is a personal choice. Everyone needs to find the best information they can to make their decision.
    My only problem with all of this is working out what information is accurate and how to stop people telling others they are idiots for not making the same decision they have made.

    Mandating a vaccination doesn’t take away the doubts and the fears. It just shows a lack of empathy for the reasons behind the decision.

    Pandering to unreasonable and illogical lunatics out of empathy during a pandemic isn't a viable option either.

    I'm not decided one way or the other on covid yet, but the stance that all mandates are always wrong is patently bollocks. If there was a ultra-Covid 99 virus that had a 50% mortality rate and was super infectious, there's no doubt that a mandate should be in place and enforced forcefully.

    So it's just a case of how bad a virus/ disease needs to be before an individual's rights are superceded by the needs to protect life, and covid 19 is somewhere in the grey area between obviously not acceptable and 100% required. If the epidemiologists and scientists are tending to support vaccination with strong advice but not force, then I support that.

    Just need to work out who the unreasonable and illogical lunatics are then. If you can work that out without becoming biased based on your own view you’ve got it nailed.

    Thought there was enough meat in the argument to not go down a hypothetical hole so I’ll stay out of ultra COVID 99.

    The ones with science degrees and years of studying in the field aren't lunatics, and those that have hours of studying Twitter on the toilet are.

    Those spouting scientific untruths are by definition illogical, and it's usually glaringly obvious who has no idea what they're talking about if you have any genuine understanding.

    There are a tiny (but growing) number of vaccine "pushers" that fall into that category, but far far far more anti vax morons out there, I'm not sure how they get dressed in the morning

  • @DJWYC14 said:
    @railwaysteve 143 deaths WITH Covid-19 mentioned, not FROM Covid-19 specifically. Far too readily quoted or referenced by many as specifically COVID deaths. Sorry but this is an important distinction.

    @DJWYC14 You are absolutely right, there is a distinction.

    You might agree the best way to measure the actual effect of the global pandemic is excess deaths, the number of people who died who would have lived if there hadn't been a pandemic.

    I found this which explains how excess deaths relate to deaths where covid is on the death certificate in this country. It is from earlier in the pandemic than now but it gives good data I think. Broadly speaking the two figures are quite close. At times 'Covid on the certificate' has underestimated the number of deaths caused by covid - one reason would be because no covid test was carried out. At times it appears to be marginally the other way round.

    https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-in-england-week-ending-26-Feb-2021.html

    I was making a very broad comparison of the risk of being killed whilst using uk roads and the risk of being killed by covid.

    I don't think it is possible to argue that one isn't currently much much higher than the other, approximately 30 times higher. Citizens of this country are quite rightly quite tightly controlled to mitigate for the lower of the two risks, the risk on the roads. Mostly we accept driving licences, speed limits, MOTs, seat belts and we disapprove and sanction those who take no notice of those rules.
    Our only mitiagations against the much higher risks to the citizens of this country caused by Covid currently are vaccines, masks and social distancing.

    I think there is a moral case for disapproving of and in some cases sanctioning those who, without a medical reason, chose not to be vaccinated.

    On the roads the dangers are visible, the bad outcomes obvious and sobering, and the person behind the wheel is usually known.
    In the Time of Covid, the danger is invisible, the bad outcomes happen hidden away and the person who passed on the disease is rarely identified.

    You pay for an MOT, you pay for a driving lessons and a driving test, you even pay for car insurance.

    Those who chose not to decrease the risk of covid for the citizens of this country, without good reason, especially when the measure of vaccination is being offered for free, deserve a fair modicum of disapproval. I haven't seen a counter argument I can respect.

  • Another excellent, erudite post. I’d only have used five letters.

  • Wow, @railwaysteve your 2 posts on this subject have been hard hitting but also insightful and very clear. I'm tempted to cut and paste your comments into a letter and send this to GA so that he can share this with any of the staff or playing staff who haven't had the vaccine yet or undecided as it supplies the evidence, a good comparison and excellent conclusion.

    The world has had a range of different diseases that are nasty and horrible and some hide in the shadows for several decades before coming back because people take things are granted and stop to think about anyone else except themselves. However, vaccines have been able to kill off some diseases. Polio is no longer a treat due to vaccines and many more are close to being wiped out all because of Vaccines.

    Believe who you want, read what you want, listen to whoever you want to but remember, one thing that never changes is FACTS and hard evidence. Vaccines work, they continue to work and get developed to become stronger because everyone wants to be kept safe and keep those around us equally safe.

    I started this topic because the professionals that we watch/support/follow every week, are skilled people in the art of Football and have an opportunity that we can only wish/dream of. But it sits uncomfortable that those "professionals" think / believe that they know better because of what they've heard or read. They aren't medically trained, some don't have many GCSE's to their name, yet their posts & statements that they make influence more people than they know but fail to take any responsibility for the damage that they cause. Players like Callum Robinson has probably stopped potentially thousands of young adults and teenagers from getting the COVID-19 vaccine with his article. These teenagers might get the virus, sharing it with those close to him/her which in turn could have massive consequences that could change the direction of that person's life.

  • @railwaysteve I would only cut and paste your comments if I had your permission and that I don't go against the Gasroom policies

  • 1 agree. Some thought-provoking and insightful posts from @railwaysteve.

    Again, I don’t know if the good people of Doncaster are typical of others in the UK but it does frustrate me that the behaviour of people here very much appears to be that being vaccinated gives them immunity and all the sensible social-distancing, mask wearing measures you appear to need in the middle of a pandemic have gone out the window.

    I went to the local theatre last night. I counted the people I saw in masks and didn’t need to resort to my toes. It holds over 600 and was roughly half full.

  • edited October 2021

    I do still wear one in shops, on trains etc. as I said, but it does feel like there's little point when you're in the minority as someone will almost certainly be spreading it anyway.

  • @Otter87 said:
    @railwaysteve I would only cut and paste your comments if I had your permission and that I don't go against the Gasroom policies

    No problem with you reusing the content anywhere. I am happy for GA or anyone else at the club to see it. I suspect some people close to the club read the threads on here. My daughter (@secretidentity) helped with some of the thoughts and presentation - it was a bit of a team effort.
    I am not aware of any gasroom rules against quoting content.

    If you use the content in the context of a facebook post or similar, please don't use my gasroom username - it is possible to identify me in the wider world and I want to chose my level of engagment in my current situation in hospital. I trust the gasroom in a way I don't trust facebook. I would be more than happy for you to say some friends of mine wrote this.

    There are a couple of other points which I have added below your kind post, use them also if you wish. I could put the whole lot into a coherent whole if you would prefer that.

    @Otter87 said:
    Wow, @railwaysteve your 2 posts on this subject have been hard hitting but also insightful and very clear. I'm tempted to cut and paste your comments into a letter and send this to GA so that he can share this with any of the staff or playing staff who haven't had the vaccine yet or undecided as it supplies the evidence, a good comparison and excellent conclusion.

    The world has had a range of different diseases that are nasty and horrible and some hide in the shadows for several decades before coming back because people take things are granted and stop to think about anyone else except themselves. However, vaccines have been able to kill off some diseases. Polio is no longer a treat due to vaccines and many more are close to being wiped out all because of Vaccines.

    Believe who you want, read what you want, listen to whoever you want to but remember, one thing that never changes is FACTS and hard evidence. Vaccines work, they continue to work and get developed to become stronger because everyone wants to be kept safe and keep those around us equally safe.

    I started this topic because the professionals that we watch/support/follow every week, are skilled people in the art of Football and have an opportunity that we can only wish/dream of. But it sits uncomfortable that those "professionals" think / believe that they know better because of what they've heard or read. They aren't medically trained, some don't have many GCSE's to their name, yet their posts & statements that they make influence more people than they know but fail to take any responsibility for the damage that they cause. Players like Callum Robinson has probably stopped potentially thousands of young adults and teenagers from getting the COVID-19 vaccine with his article. These teenagers might get the virus, sharing it with those close to him/her which in turn could have massive consequences that could change the direction of that person's life.

    There is another responsibility on players who travel abroad, especially to less developed countries, in that the health infrastructure in those countries may not yet have been able to have the people or money to deliever vaccination to the majority of the population, and infecting just one person there with the delta variant could cause a major outbreak.

    Here in hospital during the last week I have absolutely seen first hand the effect that the global pandemic is having on our own health service. Although Wards are consistently short staffed, all the staff I have met have without exception shown professionalism and kindness. I must have met close on a hundred staff now, on three different wards and on A+E . People are working harder than we have a right to expect.
    One of the sisters on this heart ward said that it used to take 10 mins for a 999 to bring an ambulance and now it can take 6 hours. I am fine now, but I did spend at least an hour on a trolley in a corridor with a suspected heart attack waiting to be seen in A+E. An ambulance crew was detailed to look after 3 people in the corridor whilst the other crews went off to help other people.
    This pressure must seem unending to those working in the health service, whether it is doing the extra precautions, working extra hours, making harder calls rationing treatment. For an nhs worker, the pandemic started in Feb or Mar 2020 and hasn't much let up since.
    It seems to me the best way a healthy person can help ease the pressure on our health service is not to spread covid to someone who could then need the health service. Vaccination makes you less likely to spread it as well as less likely to catch it.

  • edited October 2021

    For balance I would implore all those who struggle to comprehend why some of us are holding out on getting vaccinated to watch this video. I know I have crossed the Gasroom line in the past by posting links to the likes of David Icke (apologies again to all I offended)but please take the time to watch…

    linked removed

  • ‘Balance’? I suppose it is in same way the BBC used to put up climate deniers such as Norman Lamont against the world’s eminent scientists?

    You appear to have linked to a anti-vax site propaganda video.

    Click on the hosting site and you get things such as:

    How to lawfully disobey restrictions that violate our Charter of Rights
    The truth about our existing media, and our Governments media budget
    What is the “great reset” and why it is HORRIBLE for people

    I get why you’d want others to validate your views, but this is only a stone’s throw form the other wacky stuff you’ve posted from lizard people 5G conspiracy nutters.

  • @Lloyd2084 said:
    ‘Balance’? I suppose it is in same way the BBC used to put up climate deniers such as Norman Lamont against the world’s eminent scientists?

    You appear to have linked to a anti-vax site propaganda video.

    Click on the hosting site and you get things such as:

    How to lawfully disobey restrictions that violate our Charter of Rights
    The truth about our existing media, and our Governments media budget
    What is the “great reset” and why it is HORRIBLE for people

    I get why you’d want others to validate your views, but this is only a stone’s throw form the other wacky stuff you’ve posted from lizard people 5G conspiracy nutters.

    The great reset has fleeced many of their savings I believe. People told all currencies will be suddenly assigned equal value by the shadowy global elites.

    So to protect dollars and pounds and get rich buy currency in collapsing economies. Your
    8 million in XYZ will soon be worth the same as the $20k you had saved. Who gets those dollars I wonder?

  • It is a video that explains why some of us are not vaccinated. That is all. I confess I haven’t drilled down into the other content, hence the link to the video, which struck a chord personally.

  • @Manboobs said:

    The great reset has fleeced many of their savings I believe. People told all currencies will be suddenly assigned equal value by the shadowy global elites.

    So to protect dollars and pounds and get rich buy currency in collapsing economies. Your
    8 million in XYZ will soon be worth the same as the $20k you had saved. Who gets those dollars I wonder?

    The documentary does touch on this. I think this stems from a desire to explain what is going on. I’m yet to be convinced, particularly given the Elon Musk conundrum

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