@bookertease said:
(Not meaning to side with the anti-vaxxer loons, but people can have honourable reasons for not getting vaccinated)
Can they? Unless you have legitimate medical grounds - in which case I imagine you'd be advised not to get vaccinated anyway - I think it's downright inconsiderate to say the least.
Scenario. You’re wife/girlfriend/significant other is pregnant. They have not yet had the vaccine.
Do you insist she has the vaccine.
Note: pregnant women are not tested on with new drugs for ethnical reasons. There are no large studies to prove/disprove the safety of the vaccine on pregnant women.
Even though it is not tested on pregnant women for the ethical grounds you have mentioned, all of the vaccines have been approved to be used on pregnant women. I know because my wife had both jabs while expecting our 2nd Child. He has now been born with a small level of protection in his system which will see him through this pandemic.
From my view, whether these footballers like it or not, they are role models and should be setting an example for everyone (granted that some of them behave better than others). If they didn't want that responsibility, then they can easily find another career.
Question: Would you want to be treated by a doctor or nurse in a hospital who could be carrying a virus that could kill you?
@ReturnToSenda said: @TheDancingYak Of course people have a choice whether or not to get it - but they don't have to be accommodated (e.g. if vaccine passports ever become a thing - although that seems unlikely now). Just like certain countries won't let you enter if you haven't had certain jabs.
But you have a choice about whether you go to that country in the first place. It is part of your decision making process and a condition of entry.
What your talking about is people going to a place and while there they are suddenly told they have to have an injection whether they like it or not.
At the end of the day, it boils down to “I may not agree with what you are saying but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”.
It’s a basic civil liberties argument. And you start eroding away at the liberties of someone who can’t go someplace to avoid something (wanna creative vaccine refugee’s now?;-)) it’s a slippery slope.
And besides, whether to have vaccines or not should be a bloody easy arguement to win with the vast majority of people, we shouldn’t need to resort to the nuclear option in this instance.
Thanks. I don’t know what it’s like down there but up here it’s depressing. People who have had the vaccine generally seem to think they are immune (and yes probably all who haven’t been vaccinated don’t care enough to).
I’m pretty much on my own wearing one in shops these days.
@bookertease said:
Thanks. I don’t know what it’s like down there but up here it’s depressing. People who have had the vaccine generally seem to think they are immune (and yes probably all who haven’t been vaccinated don’t care enough to).
I’m pretty much on my own wearing one in shops these days.
I was pleasantly surprised at how many people were wearing them on the Tube the other day - although that's probably a wise move whether we're in a pandemic or not!
@bluntphil I have massive respect for you. I know that Needle Phobia is something that is overlooked in these situstions and it shouldn't be. I know Matt Dawson also suffers with it and I have seen the effects of it first hand. However, the fact that you've decided to go through it twice and went to hell & back just so hopefully we can go back to something close to 'Normal' I find amazing.
@bookertease said:
(Not meaning to side with the anti-vaxxer loons, but people can have honourable reasons for not getting vaccinated)
Can they? Unless you have legitimate medical grounds - in which case I imagine you'd be advised not to get vaccinated anyway - I think it's downright inconsiderate to say the least.
Scenario. You’re wife/girlfriend/significant other is pregnant. They have not yet had the vaccine.
Do you insist she has the vaccine.
Note: pregnant women are not tested on with new drugs for ethnical reasons. There are no large studies to prove/disprove the safety of the vaccine on pregnant women.
Even though it is not tested on pregnant women for the ethical grounds you have mentioned, all of the vaccines have been approved to be used on pregnant women. I know because my wife had both jabs while expecting our 2nd Child. He has now been born with a small level of protection in his system which will see him through this pandemic.
From my view, whether these footballers like it or not, they are role models and should be setting an example for everyone (granted that some of them behave better than others). If they didn't want that responsibility, then they can easily find another c
Question: Would you want to be treated by a doctor or nurse in a hospital who could be carrying a virus that could kill you?
I counter that question with:
Do you question the doctor who they have treated before you and what illnesses those people have?
Plot spoiler: every doctor or nurse could be carrying a virus or illness that kills you. But I trust them to carry out the processes they have in place (scrubbing up etc) to limit it.
My other half works in the nhs as a midwife, your wife is in the minority (or at least in the hospital my wife works at. And despite her training and having both jabs herself, if she were to fall pregnant- dear god I hope not. 2 is enough - she doesn’t know if she would have the jab. And that’s with seeing several women ending up seriously ill with covid in the last couple of months.
@Otter87 said: @bluntphil I have massive respect for you. I know that Needle Phobia is something that is overlooked in these situstions and it shouldn't be. I know Matt Dawson also suffers with it and I have seen the effects of it first hand. However, the fact that you've decided to go through it twice and went to hell & back just so hopefully we can go back to something close to 'Normal' I find amazing.
Good on you!
This is the thing for me, with so many deaths and disruptions it's heartening to see people want not only their families but communities and beyond to get better. People have made huge sacrifices being away from families, working long difficult hours, losing jobs etc. My take was certainly "if presenting my arm helps then let's do it". It will have been more difficult for many.
I think a lot is made of things being untested despite the jab being based on existing jabs and now having been taken by huge numbers globally.
I really don't see too many people being forced either, lots of companies don't want to go there. Care environments do necessitate an extra level of care around the vulnerable.
Question: Would you want to be treated by a doctor or nurse in a hospital who could be carrying a virus that could kill you?
I know I’m coming over as defending the indefensible but this is the key point for me.
The answer is of course ‘no’ but the problem is that even if they have been vaccinated they could still be carrying a virus that could kill you. They are just statistically less likely to be carrying it.
Which is of course an excellent reason why people should be encouraged to get vaccinated. Just not enough at the moment for me for people to be forced to be vaccinated
I still wear an n95 mask when out and about and for the majority of the time at work. I forget I’m wearing it most of the time now. I seem to be in a tiny minority though.
I’m still nervous about going to Adams Park but so far this season I’ve arrived a few minutes before kick off and sat in one of the empty blocks at the end of the family stand. It might seem paranoid to some, but after my experience with covid last year, it’s what I’m comfortable with.
I would encourage all our players and fans to get jabbed, but we clearly don’t have right to demand the status of each player.
Lastly well done to @bluntphil and thanks for sharing your experience. I hadn’t even considered the plight of needle-phones but it’s given me a different perspective.
@bluntphil managed to only projectile vomit at one of my jabs so I’m quite happy with that. 15 years ago if someone said the word in front of me there’s a good chance I’d either throw up or pass out, now I just get a bit sweaty and pale.
I’m not going to get drawn into the vaccination debate as it’s already been discussed ad Infinitum.
One comment I did notice in the thread was about antibodies and it just reminded me of how much misinformation is still floating about about Covid. It was mentioned that antibodies waned after 3-4 months so therefore you would have no immunity. Antibodies are supposed to wane and disappear in time, that does not mean you have completely lost immunity. Antibodies are just a part of the immune system and if challenged by the virus again, the body would likely re-produce the antibodies needed to cause a less severe or asymptomatic infection. Also, a Covid infection will produce a greater immune response (entire immune system) than the vaccine.
Not phobic but have avoided needles as far as I can for 50 odd years...but double jabbed and even had my first ever flu jab last year. Kudos to those fearful who took the plunge. I suppose having an ex-nurse spouse and a scientist brother it is hard to say 'I've done the research...' with any credibility. Mrs W said as a health visitor in Bucks she had heard bizarre anti-vax fuckwittery from seemingly intelligent people for years so while the national Foxism nuttery took me by surprise, it was no shock to.her.
I’d just like to correct one thing in this thread, a vaccinated person does not carry the same viral load as a unvaccinated person (though close with Delta), they’re also transmissible for a much shorter time. Being vaccinated significantly reduces the chance of infecting someone else.
And that, for me, is the crux. I’d rather not kill someone else through my own “personal choices”. For the same reason, when I arrived at Adams Park last weekend and my section of the FA was busier than usual, I wore a mask throughout the game.
I also detest needles. Despite a lot of hesitancy and squeaming (!) I am double jabbed as frankly, I felt pressured in to doing it because of the likely restrictions I'd face from not doing it (such as travel abroad, also not so long ago being part of big football crowds was also on that agenda!)
To others in a similar position I would now say it is almost painless and bearable if you look away and distract yourself! Plus the scientific arguments of course suggest a lower risk of serious illness and I believe transmission so it is worth it.
Don't agree with those slating others for not having had it though.
@therabbittest said:
I don't think we have any right to demand access to the status of our players, surely a privacy issue
I’m with this guy to be honest. I have had all my vaccines and I would encourage everyone to get them. They are a no brainer to me.
That said, I don’t think it’s any of my business to know if someone has decided not too. I don’t need to pry into those reasons when they could be absolutely justified.
I am also morally against governments and/or companies mandating that someone that someone has to put something into there body, which mandating vaccinations is on a basic level.
Not only would that be the thin end of a dangerous wedge, it utterly feeds into the anti-Vaxxers message of “see, we told you they are trying to put there expiremental drug into you” narrative.
I 100% agree with this.
Anti vaxxers are weirdos. The brigade that want everyone to carry a badge identifying their vaccine status are even weirder.
@bluntphil said:
What about peoples mental health when it comes to vaccinations, which are are more often than not delivered through a needle?
I've been researching this very topic, mainly through my own experience:
I'm not anti-vax and I've had both jabs (hugely stressful). Being needle phobic doesn't appear to be in the conversation but it is a contributor to vaccine hesitancy.
I had a needle phobia for years, I remember having a local at 11 for an ingrown toe nail and needing a person on each limb to pin me down.
I'm mostly over it now, though I still can't watch the needle go in. Strange considering I have tattoos and watched them with fascination.
Until the govt mandates it to be able to work, it's up to the players and we've no right to know.
Personally it makes sense for them to take it, with the possible long covid effects more likely than vaccine side effects, but I can understand why someone who's work tool is their body being more hesitant than others when it comes to what they put in their body.
Also one or two vocal anti vaxers in a squad are much more likely to have an effect in a work environment like a football changing room.
Vaccination is a personal choice. Everyone needs to find the best information they can to make their decision.
My only problem with all of this is working out what information is accurate and how to stop people telling others they are idiots for not making the same decision they have made.
Mandating a vaccination doesn’t take away the doubts and the fears. It just shows a lack of empathy for the reasons behind the decision.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
Vaccination is a personal choice. Everyone needs to find the best information they can to make their decision.
My only problem with all of this is working out what information is accurate and how to stop people telling others they are idiots for not making the same decision they have made.
Mandating a vaccination doesn’t take away the doubts and the fears. It just shows a lack of empathy for the reasons behind the decision.
Pandering to unreasonable and illogical lunatics out of empathy during a pandemic isn't a viable option either.
I'm not decided one way or the other on covid yet, but the stance that all mandates are always wrong is patently bollocks. If there was a ultra-Covid 99 virus that had a 50% mortality rate and was super infectious, there's no doubt that a mandate should be in place and enforced forcefully.
So it's just a case of how bad a virus/ disease needs to be before an individual's rights are superceded by the needs to protect life, and covid 19 is somewhere in the grey area between obviously not acceptable and 100% required. If the epidemiologists and scientists are tending to support vaccination with strong advice but not force, then I support that.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
Vaccination is a personal choice. Everyone needs to find the best information they can to make their decision.
My only problem with all of this is working out what information is accurate and how to stop people telling others they are idiots for not making the same decision they have made.
Mandating a vaccination doesn’t take away the doubts and the fears. It just shows a lack of empathy for the reasons behind the decision.
Pandering to unreasonable and illogical lunatics out of empathy during a pandemic isn't a viable option either.
I'm not decided one way or the other on covid yet, but the stance that all mandates are always wrong is patently bollocks. If there was a ultra-Covid 99 virus that had a 50% mortality rate and was super infectious, there's no doubt that a mandate should be in place and enforced forcefully.
So it's just a case of how bad a virus/ disease needs to be before an individual's rights are superceded by the needs to protect life, and covid 19 is somewhere in the grey area between obviously not acceptable and 100% required. If the epidemiologists and scientists are tending to support vaccination with strong advice but not force, then I support that.
Just need to work out who the unreasonable and illogical lunatics are then. If you can work that out without becoming biased based on your own view you’ve got it nailed.
Thought there was enough meat in the argument to not go down a hypothetical hole so I’ll stay out of ultra COVID 99.
I think revelling in being a loud, angry numbskull 'shaking things up' and waving fists at experts has largely taken the place of reasonable, evidence based decision making over the past five years. I appreciate @bluntphil 's point about needle phobia but, on the whole, and despite not knowing every individuals reasons for taking the stand they do, the arguments against mandatory vaccination impinging on so called freedoms seem like a pile of crap to me.
Comments
Even though it is not tested on pregnant women for the ethical grounds you have mentioned, all of the vaccines have been approved to be used on pregnant women. I know because my wife had both jabs while expecting our 2nd Child. He has now been born with a small level of protection in his system which will see him through this pandemic.
From my view, whether these footballers like it or not, they are role models and should be setting an example for everyone (granted that some of them behave better than others). If they didn't want that responsibility, then they can easily find another career.
Question: Would you want to be treated by a doctor or nurse in a hospital who could be carrying a virus that could kill you?
Yes
But you have a choice about whether you go to that country in the first place. It is part of your decision making process and a condition of entry.
What your talking about is people going to a place and while there they are suddenly told they have to have an injection whether they like it or not.
At the end of the day, it boils down to “I may not agree with what you are saying but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it”.
It’s a basic civil liberties argument. And you start eroding away at the liberties of someone who can’t go someplace to avoid something (wanna creative vaccine refugee’s now?;-)) it’s a slippery slope.
And besides, whether to have vaccines or not should be a bloody easy arguement to win with the vast majority of people, we shouldn’t need to resort to the nuclear option in this instance.
@TheDancingYak If proof of vaccination is required to get into venus etc, I don't think people are only going to be told when they get there!
Thanks. I don’t know what it’s like down there but up here it’s depressing. People who have had the vaccine generally seem to think they are immune (and yes probably all who haven’t been vaccinated don’t care enough to).
I’m pretty much on my own wearing one in shops these days.
*venues ?♂️
I was pleasantly surprised at how many people were wearing them on the Tube the other day - although that's probably a wise move whether we're in a pandemic or not!
@bluntphil I have massive respect for you. I know that Needle Phobia is something that is overlooked in these situstions and it shouldn't be. I know Matt Dawson also suffers with it and I have seen the effects of it first hand. However, the fact that you've decided to go through it twice and went to hell & back just so hopefully we can go back to something close to 'Normal' I find amazing.
Good on you!
I counter that question with:
Do you question the doctor who they have treated before you and what illnesses those people have?
Plot spoiler: every doctor or nurse could be carrying a virus or illness that kills you. But I trust them to carry out the processes they have in place (scrubbing up etc) to limit it.
My other half works in the nhs as a midwife, your wife is in the minority (or at least in the hospital my wife works at. And despite her training and having both jabs herself, if she were to fall pregnant- dear god I hope not. 2 is enough - she doesn’t know if she would have the jab. And that’s with seeing several women ending up seriously ill with covid in the last couple of months.
This is the thing for me, with so many deaths and disruptions it's heartening to see people want not only their families but communities and beyond to get better. People have made huge sacrifices being away from families, working long difficult hours, losing jobs etc. My take was certainly "if presenting my arm helps then let's do it". It will have been more difficult for many.
I think a lot is made of things being untested despite the jab being based on existing jabs and now having been taken by huge numbers globally.
I really don't see too many people being forced either, lots of companies don't want to go there. Care environments do necessitate an extra level of care around the vulnerable.
@Otter87
Question: Would you want to be treated by a doctor or nurse in a hospital who could be carrying a virus that could kill you?
I know I’m coming over as defending the indefensible but this is the key point for me.
The answer is of course ‘no’ but the problem is that even if they have been vaccinated they could still be carrying a virus that could kill you. They are just statistically less likely to be carrying it.
Which is of course an excellent reason why people should be encouraged to get vaccinated. Just not enough at the moment for me for people to be forced to be vaccinated
I still wear an n95 mask when out and about and for the majority of the time at work. I forget I’m wearing it most of the time now. I seem to be in a tiny minority though.
I’m still nervous about going to Adams Park but so far this season I’ve arrived a few minutes before kick off and sat in one of the empty blocks at the end of the family stand. It might seem paranoid to some, but after my experience with covid last year, it’s what I’m comfortable with.
I would encourage all our players and fans to get jabbed, but we clearly don’t have right to demand the status of each player.
Lastly well done to @bluntphil and thanks for sharing your experience. I hadn’t even considered the plight of needle-phones but it’s given me a different perspective.
@bluntphil managed to only projectile vomit at one of my jabs so I’m quite happy with that. 15 years ago if someone said the word in front of me there’s a good chance I’d either throw up or pass out, now I just get a bit sweaty and pale.
I’m not going to get drawn into the vaccination debate as it’s already been discussed ad Infinitum.
One comment I did notice in the thread was about antibodies and it just reminded me of how much misinformation is still floating about about Covid. It was mentioned that antibodies waned after 3-4 months so therefore you would have no immunity. Antibodies are supposed to wane and disappear in time, that does not mean you have completely lost immunity. Antibodies are just a part of the immune system and if challenged by the virus again, the body would likely re-produce the antibodies needed to cause a less severe or asymptomatic infection. Also, a Covid infection will produce a greater immune response (entire immune system) than the vaccine.
Not phobic but have avoided needles as far as I can for 50 odd years...but double jabbed and even had my first ever flu jab last year. Kudos to those fearful who took the plunge. I suppose having an ex-nurse spouse and a scientist brother it is hard to say 'I've done the research...' with any credibility. Mrs W said as a health visitor in Bucks she had heard bizarre anti-vax fuckwittery from seemingly intelligent people for years so while the national Foxism nuttery took me by surprise, it was no shock to.her.
I’d just like to correct one thing in this thread, a vaccinated person does not carry the same viral load as a unvaccinated person (though close with Delta), they’re also transmissible for a much shorter time. Being vaccinated significantly reduces the chance of infecting someone else.
And that, for me, is the crux. I’d rather not kill someone else through my own “personal choices”. For the same reason, when I arrived at Adams Park last weekend and my section of the FA was busier than usual, I wore a mask throughout the game.
Fully agree, and should be applied more widely. Ridiculous talk of vaccine passports
I also detest needles. Despite a lot of hesitancy and squeaming (!) I am double jabbed as frankly, I felt pressured in to doing it because of the likely restrictions I'd face from not doing it (such as travel abroad, also not so long ago being part of big football crowds was also on that agenda!)
To others in a similar position I would now say it is almost painless and bearable if you look away and distract yourself! Plus the scientific arguments of course suggest a lower risk of serious illness and I believe transmission so it is worth it.
Don't agree with those slating others for not having had it though.
I 100% agree with this.
Anti vaxxers are weirdos. The brigade that want everyone to carry a badge identifying their vaccine status are even weirder.
Wasn't aware there was such a brigade
I’ve never heard of this brigade either, but now I’m interested. What’s weird about them?
I had a needle phobia for years, I remember having a local at 11 for an ingrown toe nail and needing a person on each limb to pin me down.
I'm mostly over it now, though I still can't watch the needle go in. Strange considering I have tattoos and watched them with fascination.
I think they operate solely in Laurence Fox and Julia Hartley-Brewer’s heads.
Until the govt mandates it to be able to work, it's up to the players and we've no right to know.
Personally it makes sense for them to take it, with the possible long covid effects more likely than vaccine side effects, but I can understand why someone who's work tool is their body being more hesitant than others when it comes to what they put in their body.
Also one or two vocal anti vaxers in a squad are much more likely to have an effect in a work environment like a football changing room.
Vaccination is a personal choice. Everyone needs to find the best information they can to make their decision.
My only problem with all of this is working out what information is accurate and how to stop people telling others they are idiots for not making the same decision they have made.
Mandating a vaccination doesn’t take away the doubts and the fears. It just shows a lack of empathy for the reasons behind the decision.
Boggles the mind that mandatory seatbelt wearing to protect one's self is absolutely fine, but vaccination to protect others is a "personal choice".
@drcongo It (choosing not to get vaccinated) is a personal choice; it's just not one that has to be respected.
Pandering to unreasonable and illogical lunatics out of empathy during a pandemic isn't a viable option either.
I'm not decided one way or the other on covid yet, but the stance that all mandates are always wrong is patently bollocks. If there was a ultra-Covid 99 virus that had a 50% mortality rate and was super infectious, there's no doubt that a mandate should be in place and enforced forcefully.
So it's just a case of how bad a virus/ disease needs to be before an individual's rights are superceded by the needs to protect life, and covid 19 is somewhere in the grey area between obviously not acceptable and 100% required. If the epidemiologists and scientists are tending to support vaccination with strong advice but not force, then I support that.
Just need to work out who the unreasonable and illogical lunatics are then. If you can work that out without becoming biased based on your own view you’ve got it nailed.
Thought there was enough meat in the argument to not go down a hypothetical hole so I’ll stay out of ultra COVID 99.
I think revelling in being a loud, angry numbskull 'shaking things up' and waving fists at experts has largely taken the place of reasonable, evidence based decision making over the past five years. I appreciate @bluntphil 's point about needle phobia but, on the whole, and despite not knowing every individuals reasons for taking the stand they do, the arguments against mandatory vaccination impinging on so called freedoms seem like a pile of crap to me.