@YorkExile My original comment was very flippant, so not sure it quite warrants the forensic analysis, but no, those two statements above are not contradictory. When he had the ball, he either held it too long and lost it, or played the easy pass, often backwards. Two very different things that one player can do in one match. I don't think he should have been punting it into the box, but I do think he created less than Foden when he came on. Fewer surging runs, fewer key passes, less creativity. However, I'm also not at all blaming him specifically for England's poor performance, was just surprised that they brought him on in place of the brightest looking player on the pitch. I also don't really care too much whether England win, lose or draw.
...until they somehow actually end up in the knockout phase and suddenly I become all interested again.
If we are relying on Grealish to be a starter in our midfield then we have zero chance of getting beyond the next round. He is a good Premiership player, but at international level his ability is limited, other than falling over and winning free kicks. Additionally, he tends to be undisciplined at times.
@drcongo I'd hardly say my analysis was forensic, but each to their own. My point was that you referred to "all the times Grealish held on to the ball too long and had it nicked off him" while he "barely even tried anything more than a 4 yard pass". Of course the actions in themselves are not mutually exclusive.
I agree Foden should have been kept on, as he is comfortably one of our most creative outlets and it would have limited their opportunity to double up on either him or Grealish when the latter came on. However, people who haven't watched Grealish play regularly still seem to be thinking of the circa 2018 version. He is a much more complete player now, and has the ability to drift past defenders and take players out of the game that very few players in the world have, let alone England. (I also think it is likely that he will be signed by a huge club for vast sums of money this summer to reflect that ability, if indeed a deal hasn't been done already - if not this summer then definitely within the next 12 months).
@mooneyman I suspect that comment won't age too well. Aside from the fact that he should play on the left of a front three/three behind the striker, the "undisciplined" tag is very lazy and again stems from not actually watching him play very much of late.
Personally I'd have Foden, Grealish and Sancho all in the starting 11. You don't need both or Rice and Phillips, and I'm not sure Sterling warrants a starting place, he's getting off very lightly as everyone is concentrating on Kane
Lots of talk of Grealish being unplayable and great at winning free kicks, which is handy if you are any good at taking them or can do it a bit further forward in the penalty area but getting a pass away quickly or riding tackles and getting decent balls in will be what he's ultimately judged on. As for wether he's going to be any good on the international scene we won't know if we don't try him. Foden did look really promising before they took him off , Kane looked awful and too deep but then Rashford came on and went wide making even less impact.
Ultimately if we get beat by a great team then the more sensible amongst us (maybe no more than a backhanded compliment) will accept it whereas if we fall to a team of unknowns trying harder or just being better organized the nation will no doubt have the pitchforks out for a manager who would have been considered lucky when he got the job. The FA have got a lot wrong and still do but they've tried every kind of manager and we don't seem to learn.
24 hours until our next game and both England and Scotland need a reality check. Scotland yet to score a goal and I’ve had the pleasure of talking to a couple of Scots planning their quarter final opponents.
England fans thinking that we might even have a sniff of a chance of ‘football coming home’ is about as fanciful.
As for the defence, I'd stick with Stones and Mings as they have done nothing wrong, even if Maguire is fit, and have Trippier right back and Chilwell left back, who I'm astonished hasn't had a look in yet.
It doesn't matter who we play at full-back if they're not going to be given licence to overlap, although James and Shaw did nothing wrong. Stones needs to be given more freedom to progress the ball as well, which is what Maguire does so well with his marauding carries and we're really missing.
Phillips needs to revert to his role from the Croatia game and I'd bring Henderson in if fit enough as I think he's that bit more proactive than Rice and a better passer - midfield needs livening up, maybe even Bellingham but probably not given his youth (although I'm beginning to think we've got nothing to lose and we should just go for it).
Absolutely no chance Southgate starts Sancho, but we need someone making incisive runs in the final third - so maybe Rashford?
@mooneyman I suspect that comment won't age too well. Aside from the fact that he should play on the left of a front three/three behind the striker, the "undisciplined" tag is very lazy and again stems from not actually watching him play very much of late.
I was not only referring to his on field discipline. I accept he is not alone in this type of conduct, but as an England player he needs to address this side of his personality.
@ReturnToSenda said:
It doesn't matter who we play at full-back if they're not going to be given licence to overlap, although James and Shaw did nothing wrong. Stones needs to be given more freedom to progress the ball as well, which is what Maguire does so well with his marauding carries and we're really missing.
Phillips needs to revert to his role from the Croatia game and I'd bring Henderson in if fit enough as I think he's that bit more proactive than Rice and a better passer - midfield needs livening up, maybe even Bellingham but probably not given his youth (although I'm beginning to think we've got nothing to lose and we should just go for it).
Absolutely no chance Southgate starts Sancho, but we need someone making incisive runs in the final third - so maybe Rashford?
I am aware that almost none of this will happen...
@mooneyman said:
If we are relying on Grealish to be a starter in our midfield then we have zero chance of getting beyond the next round. He is a good Premiership player, but at international level his ability is limited, other than falling over and winning free kicks. Additionally, he tends to be undisciplined at times.
This is a strange take as arguably the Premier league is a lot higher standard than most international level games.
Grealish is a strange scapegoat bearing in mind he was only a sub.
We all have our particular favourites and blind spots though, even Southgate.
Kane, Sterling and others haven't exactly been electric.
Forden does a lot of runs and loses the ball too. He's top of the overrated list for me. But it is all about personal taste and Foden could be a key player for a decade.
@mooneyman said:
If we are relying on Grealish to be a starter in our midfield then we have zero chance of getting beyond the next round. He is a good Premiership player, but at international level his ability is limited, other than falling over and winning free kicks. Additionally, he tends to be undisciplined at times.
This is a strange take as arguably the Premier league is a lot higher standard than most international level games.
Grealish is a strange scapegoat bearing in mind he was only a sub.
We all have our particular favourites and blind spots though, even Southgate.
Kane, Sterling and others haven't exactly been electric.
Forden does a lot of runs and loses the ball too. He's top of the overrated list for me. But it is all about personal taste and Foden could be a key player for a decade.
Not to mention winning free-kicks (Grealish was the most fouled player in the Premier League last season) is A Very Good Thing in major tournaments, where an inordinate amount of goals come from set-pieces.
It is strange - England have had so many wonderful players over the decades, and yet you could blur the players and not be able to tell which generation they are from, such is the cautious approach. Euro 96 might be the one tournament where we seemed to play really positively. Even in the 1990 WC we were a little fortunate in the Belgium and Cameroon games.
We all have our armchair thoughts, but for me, England simply struggle to come out of their shell, and this is exacerbated by not knowing how to handle maverick talents (going way, way back). We may beat second tier teams with a conservative approach, but history shows that we can't get over the hurdle of top table nations. Fortune favours the bold, and we are rarely bold.
That being said, even if England did every thing we all asked, maybe we are still simply not good enough? Perhaps we belong among the Swedens of the world - respectable footballing nations who are firmly in the second tier.
It will be interesting whether it was an instruction from Southgate for Kane to drop so deep, or he decided to be 'Bertie big bollocks' and decided for himself.
Either way Kane's performances were reminiscent of Paul Hayes last few games for us.
@mooneyman said:
If we are relying on Grealish to be a starter in our midfield then we have zero chance of getting beyond the next round. He is a good Premiership player, but at international level his ability is limited, other than falling over and winning free kicks. Additionally, he tends to be undisciplined at times.
This is a strange take as arguably the Premier league is a lot higher standard than most international level games.
Grealish is a strange scapegoat bearing in mind he was only a sub.
We all have our particular favourites and blind spots though, even Southgate.
Kane, Sterling and others haven't exactly been electric.
Forden does a lot of runs and loses the ball too. He's top of the overrated list for me. But it is all about personal taste and Foden could be a key player for a decade.
Not to mention winning free-kicks (Grealish was the most fouled player in the Premier League last season) is A Very Good Thing in major tournaments, where an inordinate amount of goals come from set-pieces.
I used to think Grealish was a pansy, wheel some tricks out when it's going well merchant.
But aided by lockdown and for once going all in on Sky/BT, I watched every game he played last season. He's an animal, up there with anyone in the league on talent in my eyes. Gets battered all game too, but keeps coming back for more.
If the players around him where even half his level, he'd have broken premier league assist records last year.
He's done a bit of a Kane and locked himself into too long a contract to be easy to get to a big club, but he'd be supreme for a big team who have more than one star man.
@ChasHarps said:
It will be interesting whether it was an instruction from Southgate for Kane to drop so deep, or he decided to be 'Bertie big bollocks' and decided for himself.
Either way Kane's performances were reminiscent of Paul Hayes last few games for us.
He does it for Tottenham increasingly these days. He'll be messing about on the half way line, trying to spray balls around, latter day Rooney esque.
It's why it'll be very interesting if he does move this summer, as United and Chelsea need a striker who stays up there, and while City love all this false 9 stuff, I'm not sure him playing passes in the centre circle will work for them either.
@Shev said:
It is strange - England have had so many wonderful players over the decades, and yet you could blur the players and not be able to tell which generation they are from, such is the cautious approach. Euro 96 might be the one tournament where we seemed to play really positively. Even in the 1990 WC we were a little fortunate in the Belgium and Cameroon games.
We all have our armchair thoughts, but for me, England simply struggle to come out of their shell, and this is exacerbated by not knowing how to handle maverick talents (going way, way back). We may beat second tier teams with a conservative approach, but history shows that we can't get over the hurdle of top table nations. Fortune favours the bold, and we are rarely bold.
That being said, even if England did every thing we all asked, maybe we are still simply not good enough? Perhaps we belong among the Swedens of the world - respectable footballing nations who are firmly in the second tier.
It's always been a curious disconnect between the fees the top English players would demand, and the performances seen in international games.
None of those forwards for England would be buyable for less than about £70m!
Agreed Mr Malone, kane is a superb two feet finisher, but I would be concerned about spending 100 million on a striker, whose lack of mobility is alien to City's pacy inter changing position football.
City for all their insane illegitimate spending don't seem to go for the really stratospheric price signings, having backed out of other players over 70m in recent seasons, so going for Kane really would be a change in operation. Aguero going may force their hand though, but when he's not at the races he doesn't half look carthorse esque.
Misses a decent chunk of a season with injuries too. It's strange to say for a frequent divisional top scorer, but it's a huge risk.
It's more the sort of signing Woodward for United loves, but with Sancho imminent, there's no chance they're spending 200m net this season.
Chelsea have occasional form for it, but their last season haul was aided by getting 100m for Hazard the previous season, and having a transfer ban.
Smart money has to be on him still being a Tottenham player for the first game.
@LX1 said:
It's very interesting listening in to nonstatistical analysis
You know it's really a game of widespread opinions when the commentators were saying how crap the young Chelsea lad was for Scotland against us, yet after the game, some people were adamant he'd had a sensational game!
If I was North Macedonian I would be absolutely fuming over that first Dutch goal. I had flashbacks to our championship season.
And in the studio all the talk was about that mercurial Dutch flare jaysus
@MorrisItal_ said:
If I was North Macedonian I would be absolutely fuming over that first Dutch goal. I had flashbacks to our championship season.
And in the studio all the talk was about that mercurial Dutch flare jaysus
It looked exactly the sort of "too much force" challenge that these days they love to clamp down on, didn't it!
It was in the other game, Ukraine v Austria that a defender bundled the attacker and knocked him down as a cross was coming in, and they didn't even bother going to VAR. That struck me as odd too.
@MorrisItal_ said:
If I was North Macedonian I would be absolutely fuming over that first Dutch goal. I had flashbacks to our championship season.
And in the studio all the talk was about that mercurial Dutch flare jaysus
It looked exactly the sort of "too much force" challenge that these days they love to clamp down on, didn't it!
It was in the other game, Ukraine v Austria that a defender bundled the attacker and knocked him down as a cross was coming in, and they didn't even bother going to VAR. That struck me as odd too.
Just looked at that tackle again and It could easily be a red, that is if it were a Dutch player being brought down.
@LX1 said:
It's very interesting listening in to nonstatistical analysis
You know it's really a game of widespread opinions when the commentators were saying how crap the young Chelsea lad was for Scotland against us, yet after the game, some people were adamant he'd had a sensational game!
Reminds me of (some) Oxford fans speaking of how they dominated the playoff final. Apart from a 10-15 minute spell where Rocky made those saves, we were like the big kid with arm outstretched on his foe's forehead, while the little kid swings his arms furiously at thin air.
Comments
@YorkExile My original comment was very flippant, so not sure it quite warrants the forensic analysis, but no, those two statements above are not contradictory. When he had the ball, he either held it too long and lost it, or played the easy pass, often backwards. Two very different things that one player can do in one match. I don't think he should have been punting it into the box, but I do think he created less than Foden when he came on. Fewer surging runs, fewer key passes, less creativity. However, I'm also not at all blaming him specifically for England's poor performance, was just surprised that they brought him on in place of the brightest looking player on the pitch. I also don't really care too much whether England win, lose or draw.
...until they somehow actually end up in the knockout phase and suddenly I become all interested again.
If we are relying on Grealish to be a starter in our midfield then we have zero chance of getting beyond the next round. He is a good Premiership player, but at international level his ability is limited, other than falling over and winning free kicks. Additionally, he tends to be undisciplined at times.
@drcongo I'd hardly say my analysis was forensic, but each to their own. My point was that you referred to "all the times Grealish held on to the ball too long and had it nicked off him" while he "barely even tried anything more than a 4 yard pass". Of course the actions in themselves are not mutually exclusive.
I agree Foden should have been kept on, as he is comfortably one of our most creative outlets and it would have limited their opportunity to double up on either him or Grealish when the latter came on. However, people who haven't watched Grealish play regularly still seem to be thinking of the circa 2018 version. He is a much more complete player now, and has the ability to drift past defenders and take players out of the game that very few players in the world have, let alone England. (I also think it is likely that he will be signed by a huge club for vast sums of money this summer to reflect that ability, if indeed a deal hasn't been done already - if not this summer then definitely within the next 12 months).
@mooneyman I suspect that comment won't age too well. Aside from the fact that he should play on the left of a front three/three behind the striker, the "undisciplined" tag is very lazy and again stems from not actually watching him play very much of late.
Personally I'd have Foden, Grealish and Sancho all in the starting 11. You don't need both or Rice and Phillips, and I'm not sure Sterling warrants a starting place, he's getting off very lightly as everyone is concentrating on Kane
Of... not 'or', why do I never check before posting!!
Lots of talk of Grealish being unplayable and great at winning free kicks, which is handy if you are any good at taking them or can do it a bit further forward in the penalty area but getting a pass away quickly or riding tackles and getting decent balls in will be what he's ultimately judged on. As for wether he's going to be any good on the international scene we won't know if we don't try him. Foden did look really promising before they took him off , Kane looked awful and too deep but then Rashford came on and went wide making even less impact.
Ultimately if we get beat by a great team then the more sensible amongst us (maybe no more than a backhanded compliment) will accept it whereas if we fall to a team of unknowns trying harder or just being better organized the nation will no doubt have the pitchforks out for a manager who would have been considered lucky when he got the job. The FA have got a lot wrong and still do but they've tried every kind of manager and we don't seem to learn.
24 hours until our next game and both England and Scotland need a reality check. Scotland yet to score a goal and I’ve had the pleasure of talking to a couple of Scots planning their quarter final opponents.
England fans thinking that we might even have a sniff of a chance of ‘football coming home’ is about as fanciful.
As for the defence, I'd stick with Stones and Mings as they have done nothing wrong, even if Maguire is fit, and have Trippier right back and Chilwell left back, who I'm astonished hasn't had a look in yet.
It doesn't matter who we play at full-back if they're not going to be given licence to overlap, although James and Shaw did nothing wrong. Stones needs to be given more freedom to progress the ball as well, which is what Maguire does so well with his marauding carries and we're really missing.
Phillips needs to revert to his role from the Croatia game and I'd bring Henderson in if fit enough as I think he's that bit more proactive than Rice and a better passer - midfield needs livening up, maybe even Bellingham but probably not given his youth (although I'm beginning to think we've got nothing to lose and we should just go for it).
Absolutely no chance Southgate starts Sancho, but we need someone making incisive runs in the final third - so maybe Rashford?
I was not only referring to his on field discipline. I accept he is not alone in this type of conduct, but as an England player he needs to address this side of his personality.
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/jack-grealish-and-ross-barkley-avoid-punishment-after-breaking-covid-19-rules-1607554345000
https://fanbanter.co.uk/jack-grealish-learns-of-punishment-for-range-rover-crash/
I am aware that almost none of this will happen...
Chilwell and Mount now isolating as a precaution
Seems very arbitrary. Surely everyone involved with Friday's game should be self-isolating.
This is a strange take as arguably the Premier league is a lot higher standard than most international level games.
Grealish is a strange scapegoat bearing in mind he was only a sub.
We all have our particular favourites and blind spots though, even Southgate.
Kane, Sterling and others haven't exactly been electric.
Forden does a lot of runs and loses the ball too. He's top of the overrated list for me. But it is all about personal taste and Foden could be a key player for a decade.
You'd have thought so, but even Gilmour had no close contacts supposedly. Um...
Not to mention winning free-kicks (Grealish was the most fouled player in the Premier League last season) is A Very Good Thing in major tournaments, where an inordinate amount of goals come from set-pieces.
Surely the whole Scottish squad should have e to self isolate ?? They have been with him all the time, certainly more than 2 English players
It is strange - England have had so many wonderful players over the decades, and yet you could blur the players and not be able to tell which generation they are from, such is the cautious approach. Euro 96 might be the one tournament where we seemed to play really positively. Even in the 1990 WC we were a little fortunate in the Belgium and Cameroon games.
We all have our armchair thoughts, but for me, England simply struggle to come out of their shell, and this is exacerbated by not knowing how to handle maverick talents (going way, way back). We may beat second tier teams with a conservative approach, but history shows that we can't get over the hurdle of top table nations. Fortune favours the bold, and we are rarely bold.
That being said, even if England did every thing we all asked, maybe we are still simply not good enough? Perhaps we belong among the Swedens of the world - respectable footballing nations who are firmly in the second tier.
It will be interesting whether it was an instruction from Southgate for Kane to drop so deep, or he decided to be 'Bertie big bollocks' and decided for himself.
Either way Kane's performances were reminiscent of Paul Hayes last few games for us.
I used to think Grealish was a pansy, wheel some tricks out when it's going well merchant.
But aided by lockdown and for once going all in on Sky/BT, I watched every game he played last season. He's an animal, up there with anyone in the league on talent in my eyes. Gets battered all game too, but keeps coming back for more.
If the players around him where even half his level, he'd have broken premier league assist records last year.
He's done a bit of a Kane and locked himself into too long a contract to be easy to get to a big club, but he'd be supreme for a big team who have more than one star man.
He does it for Tottenham increasingly these days. He'll be messing about on the half way line, trying to spray balls around, latter day Rooney esque.
It's why it'll be very interesting if he does move this summer, as United and Chelsea need a striker who stays up there, and while City love all this false 9 stuff, I'm not sure him playing passes in the centre circle will work for them either.
It's always been a curious disconnect between the fees the top English players would demand, and the performances seen in international games.
None of those forwards for England would be buyable for less than about £70m!
Agreed Mr Malone, kane is a superb two feet finisher, but I would be concerned about spending 100 million on a striker, whose lack of mobility is alien to City's pacy inter changing position football.
City for all their insane illegitimate spending don't seem to go for the really stratospheric price signings, having backed out of other players over 70m in recent seasons, so going for Kane really would be a change in operation. Aguero going may force their hand though, but when he's not at the races he doesn't half look carthorse esque.
Misses a decent chunk of a season with injuries too. It's strange to say for a frequent divisional top scorer, but it's a huge risk.
It's more the sort of signing Woodward for United loves, but with Sancho imminent, there's no chance they're spending 200m net this season.
Chelsea have occasional form for it, but their last season haul was aided by getting 100m for Hazard the previous season, and having a transfer ban.
Smart money has to be on him still being a Tottenham player for the first game.
It's very interesting listening in to nonstatistical analysis
Man City v Spurs first game of the season, can't see Levy letting him go before that !
You know it's really a game of widespread opinions when the commentators were saying how crap the young Chelsea lad was for Scotland against us, yet after the game, some people were adamant he'd had a sensational game!
If I was North Macedonian I would be absolutely fuming over that first Dutch goal. I had flashbacks to our championship season.
And in the studio all the talk was about that mercurial Dutch flare jaysus
It looked exactly the sort of "too much force" challenge that these days they love to clamp down on, didn't it!
It was in the other game, Ukraine v Austria that a defender bundled the attacker and knocked him down as a cross was coming in, and they didn't even bother going to VAR. That struck me as odd too.
Just looked at that tackle again and It could easily be a red, that is if it were a Dutch player being brought down.
Reminds me of (some) Oxford fans speaking of how they dominated the playoff final. Apart from a 10-15 minute spell where Rocky made those saves, we were like the big kid with arm outstretched on his foe's forehead, while the little kid swings his arms furiously at thin air.