It wasn’t the complete disaster I feared but Scotland came close. Southgate unfortunately just doesn’t inspire me or more importantly the players he’s not there to win the competition he’s there because he’s the least controversial choice.
I really believe we have some young players that are as good as anyone in the world but because the leadership is so bland England will get out of the group and that’s it.
GS is a nice enough fellow but imagine if you gave a motor engineer access to some of the finest car components in the world, the best engines, body panels, and hand stitched seats and he built you a Vauxhall Belmont
Far too defensive last night and the build up games were wasted. Sitting or holding midfielders passing backwards and one tired mess up front. Sancho with all the pace and direct running you could want watched Lingaard for some reason play the warm up games before heading to the beach and now isn't trusted or "Englandized". You can be certain that if United or Chelsea stop haggling and buy him he'll immediately be first choice.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub said:
It’s the age old story. Why can players such as Foden, Kane and Sterling look world class for their clubs and bang average for England. It’s cos they have better players with them at club level and at an England level we don’t have the coaching or the players to deliver.
That squad is better than that performance and the individual quality of player is far better than the Scots, if not anywhere near what ITV and it's appalling presenter would have you believe, but you can't teach passion or suddenly go from a boring but mildly effective containing setup to spraying passes about comfortably. Usual problem is we play crap opposition for two years, win games and believe we are decent when tournaments come around.Bring back EL Tel.We were dreadful for 2 years before Euro96 then used new systems and played great footy in the tournament.
@ReturnToSenda said:
But that's assuming a need for English coach, of course. I see the merits of it, but it shouldn't be a hard and fast rule (which I don't think it is, even if the Capello years probably put the FA off).
I’m going to say it - England were poor last night but I think I see things differently to the majority
The substitutions, which I questioned at at the time, make sense if you take the bigger view of the tournament rather than just this one game.
-taking Foden off and giving grealish minutes make sense for the rest of the tournament
-Taking Kane off (who is clearly off the pace, injured or trying not to use all his energy) make sense for the rest of the tournament makes sense.
-Using 6 defenders in two games and building stones and mings as a centre back pair makes sense for the rest of the tournament.
-lower pace/intensity of the two games makes sense to save energy for the knockout stages of the tournament (we’ve always looked leggy once out of the group stages)
giving Rice and Philips time together protecting the defence makes sense for later in the tournament if we need to protect a lead/not concede late in a game
average results in the group stages will stop the over reaction that we will win this thing that would have come from the press.
I think Southgate is a different manager than we are used to, and this is why he is getting flack. People are used to the English way of playing football which hasn’t won as anything.
I see a European style of football and tournament play in action rather than the usual giddy highs and clashing lows.
EDIT: fair play to Scotland. They “won” the nil nil draw. But they only have 1 point out of two games and likely going home.
They play like the England we are used to. All effort and energy. Ultimately falling short
I should also disclosed that I also appreciated Peter Taylor’s approach with us. At times it was a masterclass in setting up a defensive unit that could grind out results that won us promotion.
I was never entertained by it mind you. And he soon lost his job the next season. But there were times I could watch and really appreciate the art of defence.
@ReturnToSenda said:
But that's assuming a need for English coach, of course. I see the merits of it, but it shouldn't be a hard and fast rule (which I don't think it is, even if the Capello years probably put the FA off).
Marcelo Bielsa?
One of the greatest of all time, no doubt, but I get the feeling he'll head home once he's finished up at Leeds.
I am always puzzled by the over reaction to England games. Play well and it’s that dreadful ‘Football’s coming home’ nonsense. Play poorly (like last night) and it’s’ We are crap, the manager is hopeless’ etc.
As the poster says above, this is a tournament and the first priority is to qualify for the next stage and with four points England have almost certainly done so. Beat the Czech Republic and the Scotland game will be forgotten.
People have had their reservations about Southgate - with ample justification - for years, but obviously they're going to become more pronounced after a performance as sub-par as last night's, which was Iceland 2016 levels of bad.
The fact that we're even talking about an easier route in the knockout stages kind of suggests that we know we're not good enough to win the tournament - and we're not.
Don't get me wrong, Scotland were excellent, but we just got everything beyond the defensive aspect so wrong. We were painfully slow at getting the ball out from the back, reverting Phillips to his Leeds role was a mistake, Kane clearly isn't fit, the attacking patterns were so predictable it was almost funny, and Jadon Sancho appears to be a figment of Southgate's imagination (I have a funny feeling things would be very different if he played in the Premier League...).
Every tournament we ha e one game when we're are absolutely dire, shame it was against Scotland this time.
Slightly surprised at the plaudits for Scotland, I didn't think they were that great, certainly no better than us, and as the Scotland manager said a draw was a fair result. They were definitely not as great as Graham Souness was trying to make everyone believe, and don't even get me started on Ally McCoist, that was the most biased one sided co commentary I've ever heard for an international match on tv
Look, don’t get me wrong it was a poor performance. One that we didn’t get out of 1st yet alone 2nd gear. But in tournaments past we would have lost that game and we’d be bricking it about getting through past the group stages.
This is a tournament, and for the first time it feels like we are approaching it as such and not 3 World Cup finals before we are in the actual knock out stages.
I don’t think we were ever really close to losing last night. I didn’t even see any panic from the team when i think we would have in the past. Because we didn’t need to win.
For Me we are looking at a wholly different England team than we a used to. One that I don’t think will win this tournament but one that is being moulded to play in the way our club teams have been at the very top of club European competition.
@HolmerBlue said:
They were definitely not as great as Graham Souness was trying to make everyone believe, and don't even get me started on Ally McCoist, that was the most biased one sided co commentary I've ever heard for an international match on tv
McCoist abs Dixon’s commentary - them being biased either way, was the genuine highlight of the match for me.
Souness was almost frothing at the mouth for a goalless draw. As I said above, they won the nil nil draw. Qualification is still mostly out of there hands.
Scotland needed a win. And I didn’t see one close to happening.
England were very, very poor last night and some of the selections and substitutions were worrying, but to even slightly compare the performance to the Iceland game is just hyperbole. That game was by far the worst performance I have personally ever seen by any team I claimed an interest in watching, it was truly pathetic.
Bottom line is we’re a decent side capable of playing well and winning games, but not a threat to win the tournament. The first choice defence is good, especially in full back positions but we have, by international football standards, a very average goalkeeper. Decent with his feet but unconvincing physically, on crosses, command of his box etc. The midfield system we have chosen is just not good enough technically to really excel at this level. Rice and Phillips/Henderson will not dictate games and pass proactively enough. We need higher quality players in the middle of the pitch to compete at the highest level. Bellingham will be one in future. From an attacking talent perspective, we have enough quality, but Southgate, as good a job as he has done, doesn’t have the bravery or ability to coach the team to play with enough attacking verve on a consistent basis. It’s always caution first. And that is not where the strength of this squad lies. Finally, Kane is a major problem at tournaments, as he looks consistently fatigued and off the pace (including World Cup where despite 6 goals he was not himself). Without an energised Kane we are nowhere near unfortunately. If only we had Mbappe, then again he’d probably be an unused sub as he doesn’t play in the Premier League.....
It is just before Scotland v England in the Euro’s Group game.
Kane goes into the English changing room to find all his team mates looking a bit glum.
"What's up?" he asks.
"Well, we're having trouble getting motivated for this game. We know it's important but it's only Scotland. They're ****e and we can't be bothered".
Kane looks at them and says "Well, I reckon I can beat these by myself, you lads go down the pub."
So Kane goes out to play Scotland by himself and the rest of the English team go off for a few pints. After a few jars they wonder how the game is going, so they get the landlord to put the teletext on. A big cheer goes up as the screen reads "England 1 - Scotland 0 (Kane 10minutes)". He is beating Scotland all by himself!
Anyway, a few more pints later and the game is forgotten until someone remembers "It must be full time now, let's see how he got on". They put the teletext on.
"Result from the Stadium "England 1 (Kane 10 minutes) - Scotland 1"(Mcginn 89 minutes)".
They can't believe it, he has single handedly got a draw against Scotland!!
They rush back to the Stadium to congratulate him. They find him in the dressing room, still in his gear, sat with his head in his hands. He refuses to look at them.
"I've let you down, I've let you down."
"Don't be daft, you got a draw against Scotland , all by yourself. And they only scored at the very very end"
"No, No, I have, I've let you down"
"Don't be daft, you got a draw against Scotland all by yourself, and they only scored at the very end"
@TheDancingYak said:
For those questioning Southgate- anyone have a genuine alternative?
In fact - international managers - are they actually in their prime these days or just up and coming or past their best?
Graham Potter and Ralph Rangnick are the only two who feel even vaguely feasible at the moment - and I think Potter would benefit from a big Premier League move first. I think Ancelotti would be my 'dream' choice.
One of the few things Southgate his done well is build a real team culture - similar to what Gaz and Dobbo have done here - and if we want to maintain that then we will be somewhat limited in who we can appoint.
@TheDancingYak said:
For those questioning Southgate- anyone have a genuine alternative?
In fact - international managers - are they actually in their prime these days or just up and coming or past their best?
Graham Potter and Ralph Rangnick are the only two who feel even vaguely feasible at the moment - and I think Potter would benefit from a big Premier League move first. I think Ancelotti would be my 'dream' choice.
One of the few things Southgate his done well is build a real team culture - similar to what Gaz and Dobbo have done here - and if we want to maintain that then we will be somewhat limited in who we can appoint.
Re Southgate - my feelings exactly. I would hate to drop Southgate on the back of a bad tournament when he has abs will continue to grow the current crop of players. He may not win anything now, but I think for the future it’s better. But I recognise I’m probably in the minority there but would see it as being similar to us sacking GA after being relegated from the championship such as a knee jerk decision that would be.
I don’t think the “average England fan” would be happy with potter or Rangnick. They’d demand a pep/klopp/poch and there’s no chance. In fact, Mancini aside, I don’t think they is a top 10 or 20 manager in Europe currently in the role as an international manger.
Southgate falls into the “below top 20 manager” bracket easily.
Regarding anchelotti - there’s no chance he’d drop real madrid this summer. Maybe 2 years team when he’s looking for another job, but even if he is sacked within the next 12 months you wouldn’t replace whoever is the England manger then just before the next World Cup.
A much more important game for Scotland than for us and it showed. We’ve got pretensions for at least the quarter finals, whereas whatever happens to Scotland now they weren’t beaten at Wembley.
I don’t like playing two holding midfielders, but I see the argument that it’s good practice for the knockouts.
Comments
Funny really, I don't get so worked up over my own club.
It wasn’t the complete disaster I feared but Scotland came close. Southgate unfortunately just doesn’t inspire me or more importantly the players he’s not there to win the competition he’s there because he’s the least controversial choice.
I really believe we have some young players that are as good as anyone in the world but because the leadership is so bland England will get out of the group and that’s it.
GS is a nice enough fellow but imagine if you gave a motor engineer access to some of the finest car components in the world, the best engines, body panels, and hand stitched seats and he built you a Vauxhall Belmont
a Vauxhall Belmont
My dad had one of them, a fine metallic green one at that!
Now that was a boring car.
Percy Hobart for me. 'Hobart's Funnies' were crucial in landing men on the beaches of Normandy and saved many lives.
Far too defensive last night and the build up games were wasted. Sitting or holding midfielders passing backwards and one tired mess up front. Sancho with all the pace and direct running you could want watched Lingaard for some reason play the warm up games before heading to the beach and now isn't trusted or "Englandized". You can be certain that if United or Chelsea stop haggling and buy him he'll immediately be first choice.
That squad is better than that performance and the individual quality of player is far better than the Scots, if not anywhere near what ITV and it's appalling presenter would have you believe, but you can't teach passion or suddenly go from a boring but mildly effective containing setup to spraying passes about comfortably. Usual problem is we play crap opposition for two years, win games and believe we are decent when tournaments come around.Bring back EL Tel.We were dreadful for 2 years before Euro96 then used new systems and played great footy in the tournament.
In my head the Vauxhall Belmont was only available in metallic green.
Marcelo Bielsa?
I’m going to say it - England were poor last night but I think I see things differently to the majority
The substitutions, which I questioned at at the time, make sense if you take the bigger view of the tournament rather than just this one game.
-taking Foden off and giving grealish minutes make sense for the rest of the tournament
-Taking Kane off (who is clearly off the pace, injured or trying not to use all his energy) make sense for the rest of the tournament makes sense.
-Using 6 defenders in two games and building stones and mings as a centre back pair makes sense for the rest of the tournament.
-lower pace/intensity of the two games makes sense to save energy for the knockout stages of the tournament (we’ve always looked leggy once out of the group stages)
I think Southgate is a different manager than we are used to, and this is why he is getting flack. People are used to the English way of playing football which hasn’t won as anything.
I see a European style of football and tournament play in action rather than the usual giddy highs and clashing lows.
EDIT: fair play to Scotland. They “won” the nil nil draw. But they only have 1 point out of two games and likely going home.
They play like the England we are used to. All effort and energy. Ultimately falling short
I should also disclosed that I also appreciated Peter Taylor’s approach with us. At times it was a masterclass in setting up a defensive unit that could grind out results that won us promotion.
I was never entertained by it mind you. And he soon lost his job the next season. But there were times I could watch and really appreciate the art of defence.
One of the greatest of all time, no doubt, but I get the feeling he'll head home once he's finished up at Leeds.
I am always puzzled by the over reaction to England games. Play well and it’s that dreadful ‘Football’s coming home’ nonsense. Play poorly (like last night) and it’s’ We are crap, the manager is hopeless’ etc.
As the poster says above, this is a tournament and the first priority is to qualify for the next stage and with four points England have almost certainly done so. Beat the Czech Republic and the Scotland game will be forgotten.
Draw with them and we avoid the losers of the Germany/France/Portugal group of death.
I’m not saying that’s what we’re aiming to do, but big picture, we could comfortably qualify without really clicking.
As they say, the mark of great teams is getting the results needed without playing well.
We could still loose the next game and finish second in the group.
The trouble with that plan is we would play the winners of group F in the quarter final instead.
People have had their reservations about Southgate - with ample justification - for years, but obviously they're going to become more pronounced after a performance as sub-par as last night's, which was Iceland 2016 levels of bad.
The fact that we're even talking about an easier route in the knockout stages kind of suggests that we know we're not good enough to win the tournament - and we're not.
I wouldn’t go that far. I wasn’t scared at any point when our defenders and keeper were knocking it about when it went back to them for a start.
The contrast with Scotland going back the keeper, who then hit it long, really highlighted the “that’s what we would have done 4 years ago”
It was certainly close - probably the worst performance under Southgate.
Don't get me wrong, Scotland were excellent, but we just got everything beyond the defensive aspect so wrong. We were painfully slow at getting the ball out from the back, reverting Phillips to his Leeds role was a mistake, Kane clearly isn't fit, the attacking patterns were so predictable it was almost funny, and Jadon Sancho appears to be a figment of Southgate's imagination (I have a funny feeling things would be very different if he played in the Premier League...).
Every tournament we ha e one game when we're are absolutely dire, shame it was against Scotland this time.
Slightly surprised at the plaudits for Scotland, I didn't think they were that great, certainly no better than us, and as the Scotland manager said a draw was a fair result. They were definitely not as great as Graham Souness was trying to make everyone believe, and don't even get me started on Ally McCoist, that was the most biased one sided co commentary I've ever heard for an international match on tv
Just part of the master plan to avoid playing second placed team in group F (Portugal, France or Germany).
As already mentioned earlier in the thread. They can’t be that bad ???
And yet all but qualified to the knockout stages.
Look, don’t get me wrong it was a poor performance. One that we didn’t get out of 1st yet alone 2nd gear. But in tournaments past we would have lost that game and we’d be bricking it about getting through past the group stages.
This is a tournament, and for the first time it feels like we are approaching it as such and not 3 World Cup finals before we are in the actual knock out stages.
I don’t think we were ever really close to losing last night. I didn’t even see any panic from the team when i think we would have in the past. Because we didn’t need to win.
For Me we are looking at a wholly different England team than we a used to. One that I don’t think will win this tournament but one that is being moulded to play in the way our club teams have been at the very top of club European competition.
McCoist abs Dixon’s commentary - them being biased either way, was the genuine highlight of the match for me.
Souness was almost frothing at the mouth for a goalless draw. As I said above, they won the nil nil draw. Qualification is still mostly out of there hands.
Scotland needed a win. And I didn’t see one close to happening.
England were very, very poor last night and some of the selections and substitutions were worrying, but to even slightly compare the performance to the Iceland game is just hyperbole. That game was by far the worst performance I have personally ever seen by any team I claimed an interest in watching, it was truly pathetic.
Bottom line is we’re a decent side capable of playing well and winning games, but not a threat to win the tournament. The first choice defence is good, especially in full back positions but we have, by international football standards, a very average goalkeeper. Decent with his feet but unconvincing physically, on crosses, command of his box etc. The midfield system we have chosen is just not good enough technically to really excel at this level. Rice and Phillips/Henderson will not dictate games and pass proactively enough. We need higher quality players in the middle of the pitch to compete at the highest level. Bellingham will be one in future. From an attacking talent perspective, we have enough quality, but Southgate, as good a job as he has done, doesn’t have the bravery or ability to coach the team to play with enough attacking verve on a consistent basis. It’s always caution first. And that is not where the strength of this squad lies. Finally, Kane is a major problem at tournaments, as he looks consistently fatigued and off the pace (including World Cup where despite 6 goals he was not himself). Without an energised Kane we are nowhere near unfortunately. If only we had Mbappe, then again he’d probably be an unused sub as he doesn’t play in the Premier League.....
For those questioning Southgate- anyone have a genuine alternative?
In fact - international managers - are they actually in their prime these days or just up and coming or past their best?
It is just before Scotland v England in the Euro’s Group game.
Kane goes into the English changing room to find all his team mates looking a bit glum.
"What's up?" he asks.
"Well, we're having trouble getting motivated for this game. We know it's important but it's only Scotland. They're ****e and we can't be bothered".
Kane looks at them and says "Well, I reckon I can beat these by myself, you lads go down the pub."
So Kane goes out to play Scotland by himself and the rest of the English team go off for a few pints. After a few jars they wonder how the game is going, so they get the landlord to put the teletext on. A big cheer goes up as the screen reads "England 1 - Scotland 0 (Kane 10minutes)". He is beating Scotland all by himself!
Anyway, a few more pints later and the game is forgotten until someone remembers "It must be full time now, let's see how he got on". They put the teletext on.
"Result from the Stadium "England 1 (Kane 10 minutes) - Scotland 1"(Mcginn 89 minutes)".
They can't believe it, he has single handedly got a draw against Scotland!!
They rush back to the Stadium to congratulate him. They find him in the dressing room, still in his gear, sat with his head in his hands. He refuses to look at them.
"I've let you down, I've let you down."
"Don't be daft, you got a draw against Scotland , all by yourself. And they only scored at the very very end"
"No, No, I have, I've let you down"
"Don't be daft, you got a draw against Scotland all by yourself, and they only scored at the very end"
"No, NO, I have let you down....
I got sent off after 12 minutes"
Graham Potter and Ralph Rangnick are the only two who feel even vaguely feasible at the moment - and I think Potter would benefit from a big Premier League move first. I think Ancelotti would be my 'dream' choice.
One of the few things Southgate his done well is build a real team culture - similar to what Gaz and Dobbo have done here - and if we want to maintain that then we will be somewhat limited in who we can appoint.
Re Southgate - my feelings exactly. I would hate to drop Southgate on the back of a bad tournament when he has abs will continue to grow the current crop of players. He may not win anything now, but I think for the future it’s better. But I recognise I’m probably in the minority there but would see it as being similar to us sacking GA after being relegated from the championship such as a knee jerk decision that would be.
I don’t think the “average England fan” would be happy with potter or Rangnick. They’d demand a pep/klopp/poch and there’s no chance. In fact, Mancini aside, I don’t think they is a top 10 or 20 manager in Europe currently in the role as an international manger.
Southgate falls into the “below top 20 manager” bracket easily.
Regarding anchelotti - there’s no chance he’d drop real madrid this summer. Maybe 2 years team when he’s looking for another job, but even if he is sacked within the next 12 months you wouldn’t replace whoever is the England manger then just before the next World Cup.
I wouldn't say no to Wenger, but I know that won't happen.
A much more important game for Scotland than for us and it showed. We’ve got pretensions for at least the quarter finals, whereas whatever happens to Scotland now they weren’t beaten at Wembley.
I don’t like playing two holding midfielders, but I see the argument that it’s good practice for the knockouts.