I still don't understand why Derby probably won't have to pay everything they owe to HMRC. Rob C should take note for future reference at least! Prem here we come!
@Wendoverman said:
I still don't understand why Derby probably won't have to pay everything they owe to HMRC. Rob C should take note for future reference at least! Prem here we come!
Community, family and pride I understand. Doesn't make much sense to me either.
@Wendoverman said:
I still don't understand why Derby probably won't have to pay everything they owe to HMRC. Rob C should take note for future reference at least! Prem here we come!
Similar reason as to why clubs put in lower than expected bids for there players.
Teams know if derby go under they maybe able to sign them for free. So for derby something now is better than nothing later.
Just like HRMC know that if Derby go under they’ll get nothing. So for HMRC something now is better than nothing later.
@Wendoverman said:
I still don't understand why Derby probably won't have to pay everything they owe to HMRC. Rob C should take note for future reference at least! Prem here we come!
Similar reason as to why clubs put in lower than expected bids for there players.
Teams know if derby go under they maybe able to sign them for free. So for derby something now is better than nothing later.
Just like HRMC know that if Derby go under they’ll get nothing. So for HMRC something now is better than nothing later.
Apart from the precedent it sets.
If the risk is only 25% of what it's supposed to be, then it's nowhere near the deterrent it should be
@mooneyman you might want to reflect on the job cuts at HMRC that have hampered enforcement activity in all respects before calling for more heads to roll.
@Wendoverman said:
I still don't understand why Derby probably won't have to pay everything they owe to HMRC. Rob C should take note for future reference at least! Prem here we come!
Similar reason as to why clubs put in lower than expected bids for there players.
Teams know if derby go under they maybe able to sign them for free. So for derby something now is better than nothing later.
Just like HRMC know that if Derby go under they’ll get nothing. So for HMRC something now is better than nothing later.
Apart from the precedent it sets.
If the risk is only 25% of what it's supposed to be, then it's nowhere near the deterrent it should be
Precedent has already been set for negotiating tax payments for large companies for various reasons for decades.
@Twizz said:
You can argue the technicality that FS102 is/isn't a tax law, Derby did/didn't change amortization method to gain the system. However, the truth is that after all the protracted EFL processes, including the appeals, Derby's were told to resubmit their accounts using the same amortization method as other clubs.
At that time MM, knew they were going to be hit with a points deduction because the accounts would show spending breached the FFP rules. I believe that, in the now remove radio interview MM actually admitted to this course of action.
This is from the BBC report
In June, Derby were fined £100,000 and ordered to file restated accounts after their method of calculating the value of players was ruled invalid.
At the time, the English Football League (EFL) released an interchangeable 2021-22 fixture list as there was a chance Derby could suffer a points deduction that triggered relegation.
That did not happen. But Morris revealed in an interview with BBC Radio Derby that the accounts are still to be submitted as "discussions" with the EFL were still to be completed but that there would be a breach "from memory about £4m for the 2017-18 season, which would have been something like a four-point deduction".
Here’s my take
This is the admission that MM was aware that Derby were due a points deduction and subsequent relegation and deliberately delayed submitting their accounts . Therefore he knew it would result in our relegation and consequential gain of monies for them and loss for us.
We all know the vagaries of the law but I think we have a good argument
@mooneyman said:
Heads should roll at the HMRC for allowing this level of debt to accrue.
Is it actually that massive for a club of their turnover if you include all of their top earners contributions, VAT etc and extend the period a bit for Covid. I'm not sure what a similar sized club or company would expect to pay. As Apple own half the world and pay about as much a small newsagent I'm not at all sure.
Does seem weird that Pete was talking about having to re-evaluate every bit of expense or additional player and justify it against the submitted plans with the league yet other clubs seem to do what they like.
@Twizz said:
You can argue the technicality that FS102 is/isn't a tax law, Derby did/didn't change amortization method to gain the system. However, the truth is that after all the protracted EFL processes, including the appeals, Derby's were told to resubmit their accounts using the same amortization method as other clubs.
At that time MM, knew they were going to be hit with a points deduction because the accounts would show spending breached the FFP rules. I believe that, in the now remove radio interview MM actually admitted to this course of action.
This is from the BBC report
In June, Derby were fined £100,000 and ordered to file restated accounts after their method of calculating the value of players was ruled invalid.
At the time, the English Football League (EFL) released an interchangeable 2021-22 fixture list as there was a chance Derby could suffer a points deduction that triggered relegation.
That did not happen. But Morris revealed in an interview with BBC Radio Derby that the accounts are still to be submitted as "discussions" with the EFL were still to be completed but that there would be a breach "from memory about £4m for the 2017-18 season, which would have been something like a four-point deduction".
Here’s my take
This is the admission that MM was aware that Derby were due a points deduction and subsequent relegation and deliberately delayed submitting their accounts . Therefore he knew it would result in our relegation and consequential gain of monies for them and loss for us.
We all know the vagaries of the law but I think we have a good argument
Except, as far as I can tell, MMs delaying of resubmitting the accounts wasn't in breach of any EFL rules. The accounting method was deemed to be and they systematically overspent for years in breach of the FFP rules. (FYI I'm not in any way defending MM).
If the delay had broken EFL rules, then we'd have a much stronger case, maybe even a claim against the EFL themselves.
As it stands, therefore, our claim is not 100% certain to succeed if it goes to court and I'm sure this is RCs thinking. My belief is that RC is looking for an agreed settlement of ~£2M to withdraw the claim.
Personally I'd make MM or whoever takes over Derby pay us the full £6M even if it means Derby are forced to sell players and restart as a phoenix club. But I don't think it will actually happen that way.
@StrongestTeam said:
I thought the amortization issue was based on the fact players can't have easily assessible value. There's too many factors and blaggers involved and it fluctuates too easily. People are wanting players drummed out after a bad run and then they're heroes again with a goal. There isn't a steady queue of teams after midfielders with a year left on their contact like there are houses or stock.
Wether they cheated shouldn't be up for question anyway, they have admitted various charges and their latest penalty was a negotiated settlement. The only question is wether they deliberately delayed to avoid relegation and they've pretty much admitted that too.
I don't think we have admitted anything.
And there's the start of your issues, but negotiating a settlement with people you continually berate and threaten to sue generally suggests you know you've done some wrong.
Genuinely though there have been mentions of a MM radio interview around the time of the admin where he as good as admitted to taking his time to get the season going, and that either didn't make the website or was deleted, it may form the basis of a complaint if it exists, it might be pish.
Not really. The original tribunal said not guilty on both charges. That's clear. The EFL appealed the amortisation on 3 grounds. 2 thrown out, the 3rd accepted as part of the method used "might have been explained better". That led to the fine and the altering of the accounts from 15/16 onwards and that led to exceeding FFP. I knew it would. There were negotiations between the EFL and DCFC on the sanction to be applied and it was agreed it would be 9 points. We had no right of appeal so we could do no other than accept a sanction. That isn't admitting anything other than there is a sanction to be applied. It's unfortunate. No more. Having said that, Mel spent so much, we'd still be in Admin, with or without MFC or WWFC and in a similar situation to that in which we find ourselves. We used an accepted accounting method and that has cost us the extra. A bit of bad luck there added to utterly atrocious mismanagement from Mel for the most part. We're by no means innocent, overall, but nowhere near as guilty as many would see us ot have us seen.
We used an accepted accounting method and that has cost us the extra.
I don’t think repeating this so many times is going to make it true. You used one that is used for amortising office chairs instead of the one the EFL asks all clubs to use for football players.
Barely, it was a method only used by yourselves, and was designed to avoid breaching the EFLs FFP rules.
I think RC summed it up brilliantly when he said on BBC radio Derby last week "They were caught with their hands in the cookie jar".
With the rules being deliberately vague to allow for creative accountancy, to get caught means you were quite clearly and obviously doing something that was entirely for the purpose of veiling your true financial position....ie cheating. Even if it fell strictly within the rules that's what it would be, half the championship clubs are doing that I'm sure, but to be the standout amongst that bunch of absolute financial madhouses means is a feat in and of itself.
Tbh, it's all fairly moot in regards to our case which is that we were playing by different financial and administrative rules, and by cheating them you took the TV money that we should have had.
We used an accepted accounting method and that has cost us the extra.
I don’t think repeating this so many times is going to make it true. You used one that is used for amortising office chairs instead of the one the EFL asks all clubs to use for football players.
I really don’t know who @Raminpeace is trying to convince that they only cheated a little bit us or himself
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and embezzled money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something as an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop pissing into the pot they don't possess to piss in?
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and embezzled money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something as an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop pissing into the pot they don't possess to piss in?
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and embezzled money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop pissing into the pot they don't possess to piss in?
Comments
I predict that both Boris and Derby will come out of their present unpleasantness unscathed...much to the dismay of many!
A reasonable piece in the Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jan/25/derby-county-what-is-going-on-and-will-club-survive-key-questions-answered
I still don't understand why Derby probably won't have to pay everything they owe to HMRC. Rob C should take note for future reference at least! Prem here we come!
Community, family and pride I understand. Doesn't make much sense to me either.
Similar reason as to why clubs put in lower than expected bids for there players.
Teams know if derby go under they maybe able to sign them for free. So for derby something now is better than nothing later.
Just like HRMC know that if Derby go under they’ll get nothing. So for HMRC something now is better than nothing later.
Apart from the precedent it sets.
If the risk is only 25% of what it's supposed to be, then it's nowhere near the deterrent it should be
Heads should roll at the HMRC for allowing this level of debt to accrue.
@mooneyman you might want to reflect on the job cuts at HMRC that have hampered enforcement activity in all respects before calling for more heads to roll.
Precedent has already been set for negotiating tax payments for large companies for various reasons for decades.
Joys of a Tory tax avoiding government innit.
Don’t think they can do much with the current freeze on court actions. This has been in place for most of the pandemic
This is from the BBC report
In June, Derby were fined £100,000 and ordered to file restated accounts after their method of calculating the value of players was ruled invalid.
At the time, the English Football League (EFL) released an interchangeable 2021-22 fixture list as there was a chance Derby could suffer a points deduction that triggered relegation.
That did not happen. But Morris revealed in an interview with BBC Radio Derby that the accounts are still to be submitted as "discussions" with the EFL were still to be completed but that there would be a breach "from memory about £4m for the 2017-18 season, which would have been something like a four-point deduction".
Here’s my take
This is the admission that MM was aware that Derby were due a points deduction and subsequent relegation and deliberately delayed submitting their accounts . Therefore he knew it would result in our relegation and consequential gain of monies for them and loss for us.
We all know the vagaries of the law but I think we have a good argument
Is it actually that massive for a club of their turnover if you include all of their top earners contributions, VAT etc and extend the period a bit for Covid. I'm not sure what a similar sized club or company would expect to pay. As Apple own half the world and pay about as much a small newsagent I'm not at all sure.
Does seem weird that Pete was talking about having to re-evaluate every bit of expense or additional player and justify it against the submitted plans with the league yet other clubs seem to do what they like.
Except, as far as I can tell, MMs delaying of resubmitting the accounts wasn't in breach of any EFL rules. The accounting method was deemed to be and they systematically overspent for years in breach of the FFP rules. (FYI I'm not in any way defending MM).
If the delay had broken EFL rules, then we'd have a much stronger case, maybe even a claim against the EFL themselves.
As it stands, therefore, our claim is not 100% certain to succeed if it goes to court and I'm sure this is RCs thinking. My belief is that RC is looking for an agreed settlement of ~£2M to withdraw the claim.
Personally I'd make MM or whoever takes over Derby pay us the full £6M even if it means Derby are forced to sell players and restart as a phoenix club. But I don't think it will actually happen that way.
Not really. The original tribunal said not guilty on both charges. That's clear. The EFL appealed the amortisation on 3 grounds. 2 thrown out, the 3rd accepted as part of the method used "might have been explained better". That led to the fine and the altering of the accounts from 15/16 onwards and that led to exceeding FFP. I knew it would. There were negotiations between the EFL and DCFC on the sanction to be applied and it was agreed it would be 9 points. We had no right of appeal so we could do no other than accept a sanction. That isn't admitting anything other than there is a sanction to be applied. It's unfortunate. No more. Having said that, Mel spent so much, we'd still be in Admin, with or without MFC or WWFC and in a similar situation to that in which we find ourselves. We used an accepted accounting method and that has cost us the extra. A bit of bad luck there added to utterly atrocious mismanagement from Mel for the most part. We're by no means innocent, overall, but nowhere near as guilty as many would see us ot have us seen.
I don’t think repeating this so many times is going to make it true. You used one that is used for amortising office chairs instead of the one the EFL asks all clubs to use for football players.
We used an accepted accounting method
Barely, it was a method only used by yourselves, and was designed to avoid breaching the EFLs FFP rules.
I think RC summed it up brilliantly when he said on BBC radio Derby last week "They were caught with their hands in the cookie jar".
It's uncanny
With the rules being deliberately vague to allow for creative accountancy, to get caught means you were quite clearly and obviously doing something that was entirely for the purpose of veiling your true financial position....ie cheating. Even if it fell strictly within the rules that's what it would be, half the championship clubs are doing that I'm sure, but to be the standout amongst that bunch of absolute financial madhouses means is a feat in and of itself.
Tbh, it's all fairly moot in regards to our case which is that we were playing by different financial and administrative rules, and by cheating them you took the TV money that we should have had.
I really don’t know who @Raminpeace is trying to convince that they only cheated a little bit us or himself
Some serious bleeding heart reporting on the BBC right now.
Did I miss the mismanagement and tax dodging section of the BBC report? It seemed a mystery as to why they were in trouble.
Yes the PR people are out in force for sure.
It needs to be remembered what's actually gone on here rather than crying about ramifications.
(No that wasn't a cheeky pun for @micra )
Loved it though! Swanderful.
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and embezzled money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something as an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop pissing into the pot they don't possess to piss in?
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and embezzled money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something as an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop pissing into the pot they don't possess to piss in?
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and embezzled money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop pissing into the pot they don't possess to piss in?
what was that again @bluenotes ?
Say again.
I agree with the wording but is Bluenotes claiming credit for that three times? Derby's accountant approves.