@Malone said:
Yes, you don't have to have Aloysius' super cynical/negative take on things to see the difference.
A better comparison is allowing a few hundred in the really low non league levels, but not allowing anyone in much bigger grounds at higher levels. That doesn't make much sense.
If I remember correctly, Chesham are capping attendance at 800 (or they were for the Wycombe game at least) in a ground with a capacity of 5,000 - almost entirely standing - and with even worse access than Adams Park - one fairly narrow road in and out. No staggered exit and no enforcement of social distancing - both of which you would get at a League ground. It wasn't perfect, but apart from the completely uncontrolled toilets, I thought it was well run considering. We need to get on with things and I see no reason why we can't have even 1,000 fans at grounds of AP's capacity and more.
Didn't someone on here say some of the "usuals" were acting up there?
I thought these clubs were limited to 300 or so.
If 800 is on the table then it's even madder allowing them and not us.
Better facilities make things a lot easier to deal with.
Was queuing outside shops ever a thing? I think I’ve seen it once.
I think it is disingenuous to argue that in shops masks are being consistently worn, everyone is washing their hands, following the one way system etc. Compliance is patchy at best.
The reason retail is allowed to operate is because of the number of people it employs.
@Malone There were a few from both sets of fans bundling and whatnot, but all they did was make announcements over the tannoy - they'd be chucked out and hopefully banned if they did that at a League game, if they were even able to do it in the first place as presumably standing areas wouldn't be open.
@Glenactico said:
Was queuing outside shops ever a thing? I think I’ve seen it once.
I think it is disingenuous to argue that in shops masks are being consistently worn, everyone is washing their hands, following the one way system etc. Compliance is patchy at best.
The reason retail is allowed to operate is because of the number of people it employs.
I had to pop into Wycombe for the first time in months last week and people completely ignore the one way system and don't make much effort to keep even a short distance in the shops. It's not right - it certainly puts me on edge - but it's also easy to slip into old habits and you can't keep everyone 'in check' unless you shut everything down.
Reminder that by order of the government nobody can pay to watch a football match depending on the level it is being played at, not based on numbers, procedures, facilities or behaviour. Too many people assume all football fans are all pricks all the time, we don't have to join them unless you are including yourselves and all of us.
It's supposed to be about numbers of people coming in to close contact, the shops are still packed, the pubs are packed. Seems odd to highlight that football fans might have had a beer whilst pubs are legally open.
Of the two facilities above the shopping centre probably has higher throughput, even without reduced numbers, the stadium would have more entrances, exits, toilets and stewards and the bars would probably be closed in the stadium whereas the shopping centre has several bars and restaurants.
@StrongestTeam, you don't have everyone arriving and leaving at the same time at shopping centres though. Or massive throngs all moving at a certain 15min window.
And I expect you don't get loads of blokes getting tanked up to go to the supermarket in the same way.
@Malone said: @StrongestTeam, you don't have everyone arriving and leaving at the same time at shopping centres though. Or massive throngs all moving at a certain 15min window.
And I expect you don't get loads of blokes getting tanked up to go to the supermarket in the same way.
However - let us back in gov, please!
No, you have the same numbers coming and going all day and people drinking in pubs then all being kicked out at the same time.
I'm afraid @aloysius that you have taken the worst case scenario from all aspects of the game/football supporter and lumped them all in one recipe. I have stood in the correct social distancing order outside banks & building societies recently, with the vast majority wearing masks & showing relative patience. Likewise I have stood in pubs & restaurant environments with the same courtesy shown. People can get pissed in the Hour Glass or any pub environment before a game and turn up to the footie.
Football grounds, (early doors), will only have fans whom are season ticket holders, so easy to eject & ban if the need arises. Always going to get the odd footie idiot, just as likely to find the same fools at the local KFC, Maccy D's, petrol station shop, Aldi or Sainsburys. I have witnessed many of them in High Wycombe. Kicking out time of the city centre pubs has been well documented on social media. Pointing out the football fan as some unique animal is in my view, unfair in this particular debate, given that many of the fans don't feature in the teenage/early -mid twenties, whom I understand are the particular age group who really don't get it?
@EwanHoosaami I totally accept I've taken the worst case scenario but that's what the govt has to do and it's up to others to prove that football can return safely. The thing that depressed me the most about this was the accounts of the Chesham friendly from people on this board. Despite it being five months into a pandemic, despite the announcements on a tannoy to keep their distance, despite knowing the decision on whether to allow fans to return to Adams Park was on a knife edge, Wycombe fans decided to celebrate a goal by organising a conga, deliberately sticking two fingers up at rules designed to keep them and their families safe.
If that's how they behave at a B-team friendly, just imagine what they'll do when Bayo scores a hat trick against Blackburn, or whatever. And yes, I know that the terrace probably won't be open, and we'll have more stewards, and they could lose their season ticket if they misbehave. But combine Wycombe fans with alcohol and Championship goals and I don't have confidence they'll stick to the rules. So why take the risk? Especially when it won't make the club any money, unless they're getting pissed at the ground beforehand rather than the Hour Glass.
The only reason we are debating it at all is that the rules and guidelines have been so vague and full.of inconsistencies they largely make no sense. Until the government finds a way to effectively.protect the vulnerable whilst also keeping the economy open and saving jobs across a huge range of industries and businesses nothing is go back to normal any time soon. They seem to be unable to do anything but the default gung-ho churchill-lite posh buffoonery even with people dying. I never believed that Brexit was ever going to be the GoveMoggBozzerFarage sunny uplands either even before Covid...and that's up next!
I don't know what the actual crowds were, but the three Van Morrison shows there last month were capped at 1,200 - which is 65% capacity. At an indoor venue. In central London, where pretty much everyone will have travelled by public transport.
I can’t see how this double standard can be justified really. It is splitting hairs to try and identify significant differences between staging a theatre event or a sports fixture with spectators.
If there are to be restrictions on events such as this, they surely cannot be applied so unevenly between two sectors that are so similar.
The cynic in me wonders if the government would actually quite like it if EFL clubs found themselves in financial difficulty, triggering a dispute with the PL and lots of infighting about who should/could pay. It would create a convenient distraction and eat up lots of column inches.
I note that the Culture Secretary was quick to get involved in the Big Picture proposals, seeking to generate political capital from the situation.
My flabber has been well and truly gasted by those pictures. I’d find it extremely hard to believe that they weren’t library pictures if it weren’t for the smattering of folk who seem to have taken the trouble to don “face coverings”. Consecutive rows occupied (rather than alternate as other venues have sensibly adopted).
No doubt the Palladium has air conditioning, circulating the invisible enemy around the audience. We have air conditioning in the Vere/Caledonian Suitei it’s true but the Chairboys Village has lovely fresh air and the marquee which I assume will be installed will be far from hermetically sealed. The seated stands, sensibly (and sensitively) patrolled, shouldn’t present too much of a problem.
Where is the rationale? Various conspiracy theories have been expounded
on here and elsewhere but none that seem particularly feasible or persuasive.
It seems that if there was any reality to the constant talk of following the science we would have had a full lockdown a few weeks back so the answer is probably close both rather than let fans in.
The hypocrisy and inconsistency are stark and that doesn't help any chosen course or confidence in anything asked of the public, but it also shouldn't be forgotten that theatres and their staff don't have TV money or a Premier League bailout, local and smaller theatres aren't allowed to open like non-league clubs and whole industries, support companies and specific lines of work stopped in March.
Also if you think these decisions are full of bias and cronyism have a look at the PPE procurement...
@micra said:
My flabber has been well and truly gasted by those pictures. I’d find it extremely hard to believe that they weren’t library pictures if it weren’t for the smattering of folk who seem to have taken the trouble to don “face coverings”. Consecutive rows occupied (rather than alternate as other venues have sensibly adopted).
No doubt the Palladium has air conditioning, circulating the invisible enemy around the audience. We have air conditioning in the Vere/Caledonian Suitei it’s true but the Chairboys Village has lovely fresh air and the marquee which I assume will be installed will be far from hermetically sealed. The seated stands, sensibly (and sensitively) patrolled, shouldn’t present too much of a problem.
Where is the rationale? Various conspiracy theories have been expounded
on here and elsewhere but none that seem particularly feasible or persuasive.
Here is the simplest rational as I have heard it explained a couple of times.
The Government have a list of industries to open and they feel they can only open some so they can monitor the effects. They started with a few which were random in terms of risk (but probably fuelled by the said conspiracy theories) and have never been able to move much further down the list once cases went up.
There is no risk difference between some that are open and others that are not. It is purely a decision not to open them all.
@StrongestTeam said:
It seems that if there was any reality to the constant talk of following the science we would have had a full lockdown a few weeks back so the answer is probably close both rather than let fans in.
@StrongestTeam said:
It seems that if there was any reality to the constant talk of following the science we would have had a full lockdown a few weeks back so the answer is probably close both rather than let fans in.
This is the reality.
Agreed....if you can go to a pub why not a football ground is a reasonable question...the answer is really neither should be open.
I presume, by “full lockdown” @StrongestTeam, you mean a national lockdown. With such widely differing levels of infection across the country that doesn’t make sense, at least in relation to the economy and mental health aspects.
Actually with infection levels rising across the country a national lockdown might be required. Notwithstanding other consequences it has the merit of simplicity, and might be better observed if people saw that everybody was essentially in the same position. At the moment there is a north-south divide not entirely justified by the data.
Looking at the above pictures, and trying to think about it logically*, I can't understand why football stadia aren't allowed to admit at least a percentage of fans ....
Comments
Didn't someone on here say some of the "usuals" were acting up there?
I thought these clubs were limited to 300 or so.
If 800 is on the table then it's even madder allowing them and not us.
Better facilities make things a lot easier to deal with.
Was queuing outside shops ever a thing? I think I’ve seen it once.
I think it is disingenuous to argue that in shops masks are being consistently worn, everyone is washing their hands, following the one way system etc. Compliance is patchy at best.
The reason retail is allowed to operate is because of the number of people it employs.
@Malone There were a few from both sets of fans bundling and whatnot, but all they did was make announcements over the tannoy - they'd be chucked out and hopefully banned if they did that at a League game, if they were even able to do it in the first place as presumably standing areas wouldn't be open.
There were 552 at Chesham yesterday.
I had to pop into Wycombe for the first time in months last week and people completely ignore the one way system and don't make much effort to keep even a short distance in the shops. It's not right - it certainly puts me on edge - but it's also easy to slip into old habits and you can't keep everyone 'in check' unless you shut everything down.
Reminder that by order of the government nobody can pay to watch a football match depending on the level it is being played at, not based on numbers, procedures, facilities or behaviour. Too many people assume all football fans are all pricks all the time, we don't have to join them unless you are including yourselves and all of us.
It's supposed to be about numbers of people coming in to close contact, the shops are still packed, the pubs are packed. Seems odd to highlight that football fans might have had a beer whilst pubs are legally open.
Of the two facilities above the shopping centre probably has higher throughput, even without reduced numbers, the stadium would have more entrances, exits, toilets and stewards and the bars would probably be closed in the stadium whereas the shopping centre has several bars and restaurants.
Of course, they are probably doing everyone a favour not letting them spend £40 odd to watch this dirge.
@StrongestTeam, you don't have everyone arriving and leaving at the same time at shopping centres though. Or massive throngs all moving at a certain 15min window.
And I expect you don't get loads of blokes getting tanked up to go to the supermarket in the same way.
However - let us back in gov, please!
No, you have the same numbers coming and going all day and people drinking in pubs then all being kicked out at the same time.
I'm afraid @aloysius that you have taken the worst case scenario from all aspects of the game/football supporter and lumped them all in one recipe. I have stood in the correct social distancing order outside banks & building societies recently, with the vast majority wearing masks & showing relative patience. Likewise I have stood in pubs & restaurant environments with the same courtesy shown. People can get pissed in the Hour Glass or any pub environment before a game and turn up to the footie.
Football grounds, (early doors), will only have fans whom are season ticket holders, so easy to eject & ban if the need arises. Always going to get the odd footie idiot, just as likely to find the same fools at the local KFC, Maccy D's, petrol station shop, Aldi or Sainsburys. I have witnessed many of them in High Wycombe. Kicking out time of the city centre pubs has been well documented on social media. Pointing out the football fan as some unique animal is in my view, unfair in this particular debate, given that many of the fans don't feature in the teenage/early -mid twenties, whom I understand are the particular age group who really don't get it?
@EwanHoosaami I totally accept I've taken the worst case scenario but that's what the govt has to do and it's up to others to prove that football can return safely. The thing that depressed me the most about this was the accounts of the Chesham friendly from people on this board. Despite it being five months into a pandemic, despite the announcements on a tannoy to keep their distance, despite knowing the decision on whether to allow fans to return to Adams Park was on a knife edge, Wycombe fans decided to celebrate a goal by organising a conga, deliberately sticking two fingers up at rules designed to keep them and their families safe.
If that's how they behave at a B-team friendly, just imagine what they'll do when Bayo scores a hat trick against Blackburn, or whatever. And yes, I know that the terrace probably won't be open, and we'll have more stewards, and they could lose their season ticket if they misbehave. But combine Wycombe fans with alcohol and Championship goals and I don't have confidence they'll stick to the rules. So why take the risk? Especially when it won't make the club any money, unless they're getting pissed at the ground beforehand rather than the Hour Glass.
Not hard to imagine the limbs when we score our first goal when it's all opened again.
We might have capacity crowds by that time @Malone.
The measures that will supposedly be introduced next week will be here for 6 months at least according to the Treasury’s support plan.
I can’t see us watching a game this season I’m very sorry to say.
The only reason we are debating it at all is that the rules and guidelines have been so vague and full.of inconsistencies they largely make no sense. Until the government finds a way to effectively.protect the vulnerable whilst also keeping the economy open and saving jobs across a huge range of industries and businesses nothing is go back to normal any time soon. They seem to be unable to do anything but the default gung-ho churchill-lite posh buffoonery even with people dying. I never believed that Brexit was ever going to be the GoveMoggBozzerFarage sunny uplands either even before Covid...and that's up next!
London palladium last night
I don't know what the actual crowds were, but the three Van Morrison shows there last month were capped at 1,200 - which is 65% capacity. At an indoor venue. In central London, where pretty much everyone will have travelled by public transport.
That photo is from Sunday night. This was last night:
Unbelievable.
I'm not sure your comment is the answer. But clearly, there should be better reasoning why some things are allowed and others aren't.
Always beware the low angle camera shots. That theatre is not as crowded as it looks from either angle.
That said its a strange order things seem to be reopened. Simply though not everything can open so those who pitch best get the results.
I am not sure football's lobbying on this is good enough and however much fans squeam and squeam it isn't making a difference.
Finally as someone who regularly visits theatres and football grounds I am not sure I'd feel safe in either at the moment.
I can’t see how this double standard can be justified really. It is splitting hairs to try and identify significant differences between staging a theatre event or a sports fixture with spectators.
If there are to be restrictions on events such as this, they surely cannot be applied so unevenly between two sectors that are so similar.
The cynic in me wonders if the government would actually quite like it if EFL clubs found themselves in financial difficulty, triggering a dispute with the PL and lots of infighting about who should/could pay. It would create a convenient distraction and eat up lots of column inches.
I note that the Culture Secretary was quick to get involved in the Big Picture proposals, seeking to generate political capital from the situation.
My flabber has been well and truly gasted by those pictures. I’d find it extremely hard to believe that they weren’t library pictures if it weren’t for the smattering of folk who seem to have taken the trouble to don “face coverings”. Consecutive rows occupied (rather than alternate as other venues have sensibly adopted).
No doubt the Palladium has air conditioning, circulating the invisible enemy around the audience. We have air conditioning in the Vere/Caledonian Suitei it’s true but the Chairboys Village has lovely fresh air and the marquee which I assume will be installed will be far from hermetically sealed. The seated stands, sensibly (and sensitively) patrolled, shouldn’t present too much of a problem.
Where is the rationale? Various conspiracy theories have been expounded
on here and elsewhere but none that seem particularly feasible or persuasive.
It seems that if there was any reality to the constant talk of following the science we would have had a full lockdown a few weeks back so the answer is probably close both rather than let fans in.
The hypocrisy and inconsistency are stark and that doesn't help any chosen course or confidence in anything asked of the public, but it also shouldn't be forgotten that theatres and their staff don't have TV money or a Premier League bailout, local and smaller theatres aren't allowed to open like non-league clubs and whole industries, support companies and specific lines of work stopped in March.
Also if you think these decisions are full of bias and cronyism have a look at the PPE procurement...
Here is the simplest rational as I have heard it explained a couple of times.
The Government have a list of industries to open and they feel they can only open some so they can monitor the effects. They started with a few which were random in terms of risk (but probably fuelled by the said conspiracy theories) and have never been able to move much further down the list once cases went up.
There is no risk difference between some that are open and others that are not. It is purely a decision not to open them all.
This is the reality.
Agreed....if you can go to a pub why not a football ground is a reasonable question...the answer is really neither should be open.
I presume, by “full lockdown” @StrongestTeam, you mean a national lockdown. With such widely differing levels of infection across the country that doesn’t make sense, at least in relation to the economy and mental health aspects.
Actually with infection levels rising across the country a national lockdown might be required. Notwithstanding other consequences it has the merit of simplicity, and might be better observed if people saw that everybody was essentially in the same position. At the moment there is a north-south divide not entirely justified by the data.
Looking at the above pictures, and trying to think about it logically*, I can't understand why football stadia aren't allowed to admit at least a percentage of fans ....
As I understand it @StrongestTeam, the PPE procurement process was strongly biased towards cronyism.