@aloysius said:
Out of interest, is Republican Rob backing Trump for re-election? Does he agree with his President that wearing face masks is an arbitrary, inconsistent policy as well?
Pointless derailing of a decent discussion. Not relevant to anything unless its a personal dig.
@aloysius said:
Out of interest, is Republican Rob backing Trump for re-election? Does he agree with his President that wearing face masks is an arbitrary, inconsistent policy as well?
I'd rather not know the answer to that just in case
@aloysius said:
Out of interest, is Republican Rob backing Trump for re-election? Does he agree with his President that wearing face masks is an arbitrary, inconsistent policy as well?
Pointless derailing of a decent discussion. Not relevant to anything unless its a personal dig.
Of course it's relevant. He's campaigning for crowds back at football matches. I think that's a cavalier attitude that would be unsafe and could cost lives. I would like to trust that our chairman would put the safety of Wycombe supporters ahead of the bottom line but tweets like the one above and others he's posted recently suggests he shares a similar attitude to his President - that economic considerations trump all others and the science can be ignored.
@aloysius said:
Out of interest, is Republican Rob backing Trump for re-election? Does he agree with his President that wearing face masks is an arbitrary, inconsistent policy as well?
Pointless derailing of a decent discussion. Not relevant to anything unless its a personal dig.
Of course it's relevant. He's campaigning for crowds back at football matches. I think that's a cavalier attitude that would be unsafe and could cost lives. I would like to trust that our chairman would put the safety of Wycombe supporters ahead of the bottom line but tweets like the one above and others he's posted recently suggests he shares a similar attitude to his President - that economic considerations trump all others and the science can be ignored.
Three things
Couhig is not alone in football circles in calling for the return of fans. Are they all Trump supporters.
I don't think that if the campaign is successful you will be forced to go.
It is very uncertain that the club will get any financial benefit
Much as I would love to go back going to AP on a Tuesday night with 999 others spread out it would feel like the Sherpa Van Trophy (or whatever it is called) first round
I don't understand why they didn't control the track and trace system through NHS numbers. Everyone has one and much easier to monitor. Given where we are in terms of number of cases today I am not sure that signing the petition is the right thing to do
Sadly the reality is a balance between multiple considerations - health (mental & physical), safety, healthcare provision, economic, social/cultural; many scientists recognise this and are trying to figure out the optimum balance between these priorities, as the truth is we cannot lock down the country indefinitely again as even the Chancellor will find that the magic money tree has dropped all its leaves. There is a need, sooner rather than later, to ease restrictions (especially for the under 50s) and start getting the country working and moving again; if the trade off is that the over 50s need to restrict themselves further for their own protection and the the NHS then I for one am ok with limiting myself.
There has for 50+ years been an efficient and effective track and trace system in this country operated by local authority public health officers, unfortunately this government realised there would be no money on it for their mates (Serco, Deloittes, Hancocks neighbour etc.) so they excluded them from the design of the system, in the same way they exclude PHE & NHS data scientists from designing the data tools for storing, tracking and analysing the results etc. Instead we have spaffed £24m on one bit of software that didnt work and one that is barely functional and an Excel 2003 spreadsheet that ran out of rows. Seriously you couldnt make it up.
@Forest_Blue said:
Shouldn’t we also use some common sense here. If you are concerned, don’t go to a game.
The fact you've said this about a viral pandemic that can grow exponentially shows that "common sense" doesn't really apply when people have no knowledge on a subject to ground themselves.
If only people had enough data and were scientifically literate enough to make common sense decisions. The data is somewhat elusive and/or open to interpretation even amongst the scientific community. Although I am not convinced the dissenting voices know best, its clear the government isn't just following the science. And its all very well person x not being bothered about the personal risk, but its not just them that suffers.
It will be an absolute disgrace if the Premier League and, arguably, those Championship clubs whose owners are super rich can’t assist League one and two clubs in their efforts to remain solvent.
@aloysius said:
Out of interest, is Republican Rob backing Trump for re-election? Does he agree with his President that wearing face masks is an arbitrary, inconsistent policy as well?
Pointless derailing of a decent discussion. Not relevant to anything unless its a personal dig.
Of course it's relevant. He's campaigning for crowds back at football matches. I think that's a cavalier attitude that would be unsafe and could cost lives. I would like to trust that our chairman would put the safety of Wycombe supporters ahead of the bottom line but tweets like the one above and others he's posted recently suggests he shares a similar attitude to his President - that economic considerations trump all others and the science can be ignored.
As I recall, you have been anti-Rob Couhig right from the start because you dislike his political allegiances. That is your right, but I find it distasteful that you can suggest he would even consider putting the safety of supporters at risk ‘ahead of the bottom line’. It is a slur on his character based purely on his political views.
Imagine the number of people it would take to safely staff a crowd of 1000 people who have already paid. While I get where @aloysius is coming from, it would surely lose the club more money to actually allow fans in.
@aloysius said:
Out of interest, is Republican Rob backing Trump for re-election? Does he agree with his President that wearing face masks is an arbitrary, inconsistent policy as well?
Pointless derailing of a decent discussion. Not relevant to anything unless its a personal dig.
Of course it's relevant. He's campaigning for crowds back at football matches. I think that's a cavalier attitude that would be unsafe and could cost lives. I would like to trust that our chairman would put the safety of Wycombe supporters ahead of the bottom line but tweets like the one above and others he's posted recently suggests he shares a similar attitude to his President - that economic considerations trump all others and the science can be ignored.
As I recall, you have been anti-Rob Couhig right from the start because you dislike his political allegiances. That is your right, but I find it distasteful that you can suggest he would even consider putting the safety of supporters at risk ‘ahead of the bottom line’. It is a slur on his character based purely on his political views.
I get where your coming from, but someones political views aren't exempt from being used to judge someone. If you support a political party who clearly value money over life then you must somewhat agree with that viewpoint?
It's perfectly reasonably to "slur" anyone's character who outright supports the Trump regime (not just on that side as they always have been/ don't like the other side), they're quite frankly either racist, selfish/ greedy beyond contempt or beyond thick at this point. Hence why I'd rather not know RCs current stand point on American politics
If I supported the BNP I'd expect to have my character judged accordingly.
@Forest_Blue said:
Shouldn’t we also use some common sense here. If you are concerned, don’t go to a game.
The fact you've said this about a viral pandemic that can grow exponentially shows that "common sense" doesn't really apply when people have no knowledge on a subject to ground themselves.
Agreed, this is a fairly common and frankly disturbing argument. If someone is not concerned and is comfortable with attending, does this somehow make them less likely to catch and/or spread the virus?
@aloysius said:
Out of interest, is Republican Rob backing Trump for re-election? Does he agree with his President that wearing face masks is an arbitrary, inconsistent policy as well?
Pointless derailing of a decent discussion. Not relevant to anything unless its a personal dig.
Of course it's relevant. He's campaigning for crowds back at football matches. I think that's a cavalier attitude that would be unsafe and could cost lives. I would like to trust that our chairman would put the safety of Wycombe supporters ahead of the bottom line but tweets like the one above and others he's posted recently suggests he shares a similar attitude to his President - that economic considerations trump all others and the science can be ignored.
As I recall, you have been anti-Rob Couhig right from the start because you dislike his political allegiances. That is your right, but I find it distasteful that you can suggest he would even consider putting the safety of supporters at risk ‘ahead of the bottom line’. It is a slur on his character based purely on his political views.
Nope, I've been sceptical about Rob Couhig from the start because I don't think he's been transparent enough about his intentions for the club and I don't believe there is enough scrutiny from the Trust (so happy to do my bit on here instead). His political allegiances are not in and of themselves a reason for me to be "anti Rob Couhig" but they certainly lead to some examination, as @Username has explained far more eloquently than I ever could.
This is a man who told all staff to look for new jobs at the start of the Covid crisis (which other club did that?), has said time and again that he's going to make tough decisions to maximise revenue, and is now calling on Wycombe supporters to sign a petition calling on them to be allowed back into the ground at a time when covid cases are spiralling, hospital rates are increasing and most of our leading scientists are calling for more social restrictions, not fewer.
To the best of my knowledge, the club has not published a plan showing how it could allow fans back into the ground safely. I know you've reassumed your role as a club propagandist in the local press in return for access to matches, so your interests may be conflicted here, but a perhaps you could be using your column to call for this report to be published so it can be subjected to proper scrutiny? That way supporters could make an educated decision on whether to sign this petition rather than simply taking Mr Couhig's word for it that returning to the ground in a midst of a pandemic would be safe.
PS @drcongo I think you may have misinterpreted a previous post of mine, I'm in full agreement that reopening the club to a limited capacity would actually cost the club money, not make it any - unless it was being deeply irresponsible and trying to get fans drunk before heading into the ground.
One problem being is that every SM or general media outlet can produce an "expert" that gives a view to suit the desired narrative. I listened to a virologist, (couldn't hear his title), this morning on BBC3CR. This one said statistically there was little to no chance of catching this virus on the street. An indoor environment sees the statistic ROI rise rapidly & as such improving A/C systems/opening windows at home would be a massive benefit. Even if it was somehow subsidised by the govt, would be a lot cheaper than another full lockdown. So who do we believe as mere mortals with no particular expertise in this field?
Based on this radio interview alone, I can see why & feel justified for Rob Couhig in wanting to open a football stadium, outside, with controlling measures in place.
What do I know, zilch, what do these experts know, I haven't a clue either as there appears to be too many conflicting reports.
A bit like climate change @EwanHoosaami vast majority of expert opinion was and is for lockdown. You have to remember the media has to fill the air space and as no-one from.the present regime will answer any questions except on CBeebies and the One Show they have to spend a lot of time trying not to ask the same people on to say the same things - however sensible. I agree that being outside would seem to suggest a lower chance of getting it but as I cannot even spell epidemiologist its best not to.follow my judgement.
I hardly think RC is a lone voice amongst football club chairmen asking for a return of some spectators. It is also perhaps a little unfair to link being a life-long Republican to being a Trump supporter (although the GoP will have some serious questions to answer about how they have enabled him before and during his time in office one day - hopefully soon, although I have my doubts) and to impose the values and beliefs of a psychopathic narcissist onto, by all accounts (from those who have met him), a reasonable and personable individual (accepting that the open and private may be different).
My personal view is that until we do know more about the transmission, or have a "world beating" test, track and trace programme (yeah that will happen), the risks probably outweigh the benefits of letting fans back into stadiums.
It is a nuanced argument however. Several (well-respected)(and Dev - sorry Dev, just kidding but couldn't resist) posters on here actively encourage people on here to attend local football matches when they can, and from the reports back, socially distancing is often not adhered to within the confines of the ground.
To me, logic at this stage should allow for a very limited number of people to attend but that this would be a fixed number rather than a percentage of capacity, purely due to the practicalities of a maximum 500 people wandering aimlessly around rather than 5,000 if you went for a 10% limit on some stadiums.
But other than providing work for quite a few people to 'police' it and provide any services required, I cant see any good economic reason to do so.
There are many who supported the Chinese virus denying, now 'heroic' Covid 'surviving' orange would be Mussolini who after four years of this farcical dictatorship bound clown show may now be.longing for a return to a more traditional less obviously fascist republican leadership. I hope Rob might be one of them.
Of course it's relevant. He's campaigning for crowds back at football matches. I think that's a cavalier attitude that would be unsafe and could cost lives. I would like to trust that our chairman would put the safety of Wycombe supporters ahead of the bottom line but tweets like the one above and others he's posted recently suggests he shares a similar attitude to his President - that economic considerations trump all others and the science can be ignored.
As I recall, you have been anti-Rob Couhig right from the start because you dislike his political allegiances. That is your right, but I find it distasteful that you can suggest he would even consider putting the safety of supporters at risk ‘ahead of the bottom line’. It is a slur on his character based purely on his political views.
Nope, I've been sceptical about Rob Couhig from the start because I don't think he's been transparent enough about his intentions for the club and I don't believe there is enough scrutiny from the Trust (so happy to do my bit on here instead). His political allegiances are not in and of themselves a reason for me to be "anti Rob Couhig" but they certainly lead to some examination, as @Username has explained far more eloquently than I ever could.
This is a man who told all staff to look for new jobs at the start of the Covid crisis (which other club did that?), has said time and again that he's going to make tough decisions to maximise revenue, and is now calling on Wycombe supporters to sign a petition calling on them to be allowed back into the ground at a time when covid cases are spiralling, hospital rates are increasing and most of our leading scientists are calling for more social restrictions, not fewer.
To the best of my knowledge, the club has not published a plan showing how it could allow fans back into the ground safely. I know you've reassumed your role as a club propagandist in the local press in return for access to matches, so your interests may be conflicted here, but a perhaps you could be using your column to call for this report to be published so it can be subjected to proper scrutiny? That way supporters could make an educated decision on whether to sign this petition rather than simply taking Mr Couhig's word for it that returning to the ground in a midst of a pandemic would be safe.
PS @drcongo I think you may have misinterpreted a previous post of mine, I'm in full agreement that reopening the club to a limited capacity would actually cost the club money, not make it any - unless it was being deeply irresponsible and trying to get fans drunk before heading into the ground.
To answer your points:
Rob has stated on multiple occasions that his intentions are to make the club sustainable. If there is more you would like to know I suggest you use the right channels to ask him as he has always proved willing to answer questions.
You have no idea if he supports Trump and I see no relevance to that issue in the context of his ownership of the club.
I believe he advised members of staff to safeguard their futures by looking for other jobs in the event that Covid-19 could lead to redundancies at WWFC. What was wrong with that?
The club has not published a plan for dealing with the return of spectators because that remains a distant prospect. It doesn’t mean that they don’t have a plan and they have followed all the necessary guidelines for staging games at Adams Park since lockdown ended.
If publicly supporting the club that is a big part of my life is being a propagandist, I proudly plead guilty to that ‘offence’.
I have accreditation to attend games through the EFL so I don’t need the BFP to help me get into matches. I volunteered to write for them because they are short staffed and unable to give the club the publicity it deserves. I do not receive a fee or expenses for my contributions.
Where did Rob give his ‘word’ that returning to grounds would be safe?
With respect (not that you have showed any to me) I think it would be more helpful if you dealt in facts rather than assumptions.
I’m not sure there is a great deal here that we didn’t already know. However, it does report that the government are reviewing the approach taken in Germany and whether that could be replicated in the UK. And that in the event stadiums are partially opened, ticket sales may be limited to those living within a certain radius of the ground.
Side note: Germany has had a track and trace app with excellent security and privacy for months now, pretty much since the day the Apple / Google APIs became available. Ours, which is a couple of weeks old, is so shit on both security and privacy that police officers aren't allowed to install it, and the test data is in an Excel spreadsheet so anyone with access to a single record also has to have access to every record. The "government" can review what's happening in Germany all they like, but their incompetence at absolutely anything and everything to do with the pandemic means all they can do is look on in wonder.
Comments
Pointless derailing of a decent discussion. Not relevant to anything unless its a personal dig.
I'd rather not know the answer to that just in case
Of course it's relevant. He's campaigning for crowds back at football matches. I think that's a cavalier attitude that would be unsafe and could cost lives. I would like to trust that our chairman would put the safety of Wycombe supporters ahead of the bottom line but tweets like the one above and others he's posted recently suggests he shares a similar attitude to his President - that economic considerations trump all others and the science can be ignored.
Three things
Couhig is not alone in football circles in calling for the return of fans. Are they all Trump supporters.
I don't think that if the campaign is successful you will be forced to go.
It is very uncertain that the club will get any financial benefit
Much as I would love to go back going to AP on a Tuesday night with 999 others spread out it would feel like the Sherpa Van Trophy (or whatever it is called) first round
I don't understand why they didn't control the track and trace system through NHS numbers. Everyone has one and much easier to monitor. Given where we are in terms of number of cases today I am not sure that signing the petition is the right thing to do
Sadly the reality is a balance between multiple considerations - health (mental & physical), safety, healthcare provision, economic, social/cultural; many scientists recognise this and are trying to figure out the optimum balance between these priorities, as the truth is we cannot lock down the country indefinitely again as even the Chancellor will find that the magic money tree has dropped all its leaves. There is a need, sooner rather than later, to ease restrictions (especially for the under 50s) and start getting the country working and moving again; if the trade off is that the over 50s need to restrict themselves further for their own protection and the the NHS then I for one am ok with limiting myself.
There has for 50+ years been an efficient and effective track and trace system in this country operated by local authority public health officers, unfortunately this government realised there would be no money on it for their mates (Serco, Deloittes, Hancocks neighbour etc.) so they excluded them from the design of the system, in the same way they exclude PHE & NHS data scientists from designing the data tools for storing, tracking and analysing the results etc. Instead we have spaffed £24m on one bit of software that didnt work and one that is barely functional and an Excel 2003 spreadsheet that ran out of rows. Seriously you couldnt make it up.
Shouldn’t we also use some common sense here. If you are concerned, don’t go to a game.
The fact you've said this about a viral pandemic that can grow exponentially shows that "common sense" doesn't really apply when people have no knowledge on a subject to ground themselves.
If only people had enough data and were scientifically literate enough to make common sense decisions. The data is somewhat elusive and/or open to interpretation even amongst the scientific community. Although I am not convinced the dissenting voices know best, its clear the government isn't just following the science. And its all very well person x not being bothered about the personal risk, but its not just them that suffers.
It will be an absolute disgrace if the Premier League and, arguably, those Championship clubs whose owners are super rich can’t assist League one and two clubs in their efforts to remain solvent.
Only in that if those ticket holders were allowed in, the club wouldn't be obliged to return the ticket money?
I don't know Rob, I've only met him once and what I know of him is totally based on his media appearances and statements.
While he is apparently ideologically right-leaning, I don't think there's a chance in hell he is anti-mask. I'd put everything I own on it.
Exactly, I might be way wide of the mark, but in my head this is a tiny amount in reality.
O> @aloysius said:
As I recall, you have been anti-Rob Couhig right from the start because you dislike his political allegiances. That is your right, but I find it distasteful that you can suggest he would even consider putting the safety of supporters at risk ‘ahead of the bottom line’. It is a slur on his character based purely on his political views.
Imagine the number of people it would take to safely staff a crowd of 1000 people who have already paid. While I get where @aloysius is coming from, it would surely lose the club more money to actually allow fans in.
I get where your coming from, but someones political views aren't exempt from being used to judge someone. If you support a political party who clearly value money over life then you must somewhat agree with that viewpoint?
It's perfectly reasonably to "slur" anyone's character who outright supports the Trump regime (not just on that side as they always have been/ don't like the other side), they're quite frankly either racist, selfish/ greedy beyond contempt or beyond thick at this point. Hence why I'd rather not know RCs current stand point on American politics
If I supported the BNP I'd expect to have my character judged accordingly.
Agreed, this is a fairly common and frankly disturbing argument. If someone is not concerned and is comfortable with attending, does this somehow make them less likely to catch and/or spread the virus?
Nope, I've been sceptical about Rob Couhig from the start because I don't think he's been transparent enough about his intentions for the club and I don't believe there is enough scrutiny from the Trust (so happy to do my bit on here instead). His political allegiances are not in and of themselves a reason for me to be "anti Rob Couhig" but they certainly lead to some examination, as @Username has explained far more eloquently than I ever could.
This is a man who told all staff to look for new jobs at the start of the Covid crisis (which other club did that?), has said time and again that he's going to make tough decisions to maximise revenue, and is now calling on Wycombe supporters to sign a petition calling on them to be allowed back into the ground at a time when covid cases are spiralling, hospital rates are increasing and most of our leading scientists are calling for more social restrictions, not fewer.
To the best of my knowledge, the club has not published a plan showing how it could allow fans back into the ground safely. I know you've reassumed your role as a club propagandist in the local press in return for access to matches, so your interests may be conflicted here, but a perhaps you could be using your column to call for this report to be published so it can be subjected to proper scrutiny? That way supporters could make an educated decision on whether to sign this petition rather than simply taking Mr Couhig's word for it that returning to the ground in a midst of a pandemic would be safe.
PS @drcongo I think you may have misinterpreted a previous post of mine, I'm in full agreement that reopening the club to a limited capacity would actually cost the club money, not make it any - unless it was being deeply irresponsible and trying to get fans drunk before heading into the ground.
One problem being is that every SM or general media outlet can produce an "expert" that gives a view to suit the desired narrative. I listened to a virologist, (couldn't hear his title), this morning on BBC3CR. This one said statistically there was little to no chance of catching this virus on the street. An indoor environment sees the statistic ROI rise rapidly & as such improving A/C systems/opening windows at home would be a massive benefit. Even if it was somehow subsidised by the govt, would be a lot cheaper than another full lockdown. So who do we believe as mere mortals with no particular expertise in this field?
Based on this radio interview alone, I can see why & feel justified for Rob Couhig in wanting to open a football stadium, outside, with controlling measures in place.
What do I know, zilch, what do these experts know, I haven't a clue either as there appears to be too many conflicting reports.
A bit like climate change @EwanHoosaami vast majority of expert opinion was and is for lockdown. You have to remember the media has to fill the air space and as no-one from.the present regime will answer any questions except on CBeebies and the One Show they have to spend a lot of time trying not to ask the same people on to say the same things - however sensible. I agree that being outside would seem to suggest a lower chance of getting it but as I cannot even spell epidemiologist its best not to.follow my judgement.
I hardly think RC is a lone voice amongst football club chairmen asking for a return of some spectators. It is also perhaps a little unfair to link being a life-long Republican to being a Trump supporter (although the GoP will have some serious questions to answer about how they have enabled him before and during his time in office one day - hopefully soon, although I have my doubts) and to impose the values and beliefs of a psychopathic narcissist onto, by all accounts (from those who have met him), a reasonable and personable individual (accepting that the open and private may be different).
My personal view is that until we do know more about the transmission, or have a "world beating" test, track and trace programme (yeah that will happen), the risks probably outweigh the benefits of letting fans back into stadiums.
It is a nuanced argument however. Several (well-respected)(and Dev - sorry Dev, just kidding but couldn't resist) posters on here actively encourage people on here to attend local football matches when they can, and from the reports back, socially distancing is often not adhered to within the confines of the ground.
To me, logic at this stage should allow for a very limited number of people to attend but that this would be a fixed number rather than a percentage of capacity, purely due to the practicalities of a maximum 500 people wandering aimlessly around rather than 5,000 if you went for a 10% limit on some stadiums.
But other than providing work for quite a few people to 'police' it and provide any services required, I cant see any good economic reason to do so.
There are many who supported the Chinese virus denying, now 'heroic' Covid 'surviving' orange would be Mussolini who after four years of this farcical dictatorship bound clown show may now be.longing for a return to a more traditional less obviously fascist republican leadership. I hope Rob might be one of them.
To answer your points:
Rob has stated on multiple occasions that his intentions are to make the club sustainable. If there is more you would like to know I suggest you use the right channels to ask him as he has always proved willing to answer questions.
You have no idea if he supports Trump and I see no relevance to that issue in the context of his ownership of the club.
I believe he advised members of staff to safeguard their futures by looking for other jobs in the event that Covid-19 could lead to redundancies at WWFC. What was wrong with that?
The club has not published a plan for dealing with the return of spectators because that remains a distant prospect. It doesn’t mean that they don’t have a plan and they have followed all the necessary guidelines for staging games at Adams Park since lockdown ended.
If publicly supporting the club that is a big part of my life is being a propagandist, I proudly plead guilty to that ‘offence’.
I have accreditation to attend games through the EFL so I don’t need the BFP to help me get into matches. I volunteered to write for them because they are short staffed and unable to give the club the publicity it deserves. I do not receive a fee or expenses for my contributions.
Where did Rob give his ‘word’ that returning to grounds would be safe?
With respect (not that you have showed any to me) I think it would be more helpful if you dealt in facts rather than assumptions.
Fans’ return in England could be restricted to season-ticket holders who live locally: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/season-ticket-holders-who-live-locally-could-facilitate-fans-return-in-england-z2b2qfp2p
I’m not sure there is a great deal here that we didn’t already know. However, it does report that the government are reviewing the approach taken in Germany and whether that could be replicated in the UK. And that in the event stadiums are partially opened, ticket sales may be limited to those living within a certain radius of the ground.
Side note: Germany has had a track and trace app with excellent security and privacy for months now, pretty much since the day the Apple / Google APIs became available. Ours, which is a couple of weeks old, is so shit on both security and privacy that police officers aren't allowed to install it, and the test data is in an Excel spreadsheet so anyone with access to a single record also has to have access to every record. The "government" can review what's happening in Germany all they like, but their incompetence at absolutely anything and everything to do with the pandemic means all they can do is look on in wonder.
Man City exec saying B Teams should be allowed in pyramid. They have found their moment.
I do worry about the pact the FL may have to enter into if it is forced to go to the PL and ask for money.
That would be one way to guarantee the death of the pyramid. I'd just never return if that happened, I'm not interested in watching training matches
It's so hypocritical for the PL to hoard young talent and then whine about them not getting experience.