Agree @Chris Brexit was a risky Tory housekeeping exercise gone wrong by HR Manager Gammon Cameron which played straight into the hands of one note racists in his party and outside it (including in the Labour heartlands) but Corbyn is and was a long time supporter of getting out...so from my point of view his lack lustre opposition (not that there really was any) had to be dragged out of him. Also from my point of view his main platform seemed to be...we agree with getting out as people voted for it but we can get a better exit deal...which seeing as the Tories had already sold that dream of steadfast floppy haired British Dunkirk Churchill Spirit (them foreigners need us more than we need them) to the masses was never going to fly. He may have beaten Tony in votes, but not seats so it was as significant as Hillary winning 'the popular vote'. We got Bozzer and Trump. I would just prefer my vote didn't go back to just being a highly principled 'protest vote' as it was for such a long time. (Although obviously it still is in Bucks)
No one would fairly give Corbyn the full blame for Brexit @Chris. I agree. There are many others responsible for that too. It is highly likely though that if Corbyn and Milne had not have (in all liklihood deliberately if not through gross incompetence) scuppered the Labour side of the Remain campaign, it is likely that remain would have won the 2016 referendum. We will never know for sure.
brexit is now lost for now. Corbyn has gone having lost two elections. Starmer offers hope that at the next election, the English Nationalists will be beaten and then he and an elected Labour can like Blair deliver improvements to our lives.
Oh there certainly was -whether deliberate or not. If not deliberate it was quite staggeringly incompetent. Would a proper Labour campaign clearly advocating the benefits of remain have swung 2% of the electorate - we'll never know for sure. My bet is yes. All history now though.
Question now is Starmer or Johnson? Nobrainer for me.
@Chris said:
Blame Nigel Farage, blame the BBC for giving Farage a platform, blame Cameron for calling a referendum, blame austerity, blame Labour for not putting in place adequate financial regulations, blame Thatcher; they all bear far more responsibility for Brexit than Corbyn.
I think I actually prefer foul mouthed abusive @Chris
Don't think party allegiances had much to do with the original Vote...the concentration on immigration did for all moderates which is why it was so close. I think waving around a pasty, tub-thumbing, backstabbing, thousands of Turks coming in, lying, seizing his chance jokes a-plenty Bozzer did for Remain...and for Cameron. It was only his terror when Govey decided he did not fancy having to do all the legwork for a charlatan that stopped him taking the reins then.
@devc shouldn’t more blame be placed on those involved in leading the remain campaign (stronger in Europe or something like that) rather than Jeremy Corbyn?
No Labour ran their own campaign, "Labour in" , working with the official campaign. Corbyn and Milne did everything they could to undermine it. If it wasn't deliberate, the incompetence was breathtaking.
But as I said before, that is the past, the present and future is what matters. Starmer has a realistic chance to do what Blair did and Corbyn didn't. get elected, kick the Tories out, make the UK a better place.
Do you support him in that endeavour, even though he will only deliver part of what you wish?
Obviously Iraq destroyed Blair’s reputation. It was no doubt a disaster. Frankly though we were a bit player and Bush was doing that with or without the UK. We made little or no difference.
Apart from that his record is pretty positive.
His crowning achievement was peace in Northern Ireland setting a template for conflict resolution around the world. Others take credit there too but it wouldn’t have happened without Blair.
His interventions on Kosovo and Sierra Leone were positive.
But perhaps his greatest impact on the poorest people in the world was the Gleneagles summit in 2005 which resulted in significant third world debt write offs and large increases in aid (ours doubled in real terms) embedding the 0.7 per cent aid spend. Many kids have shelter, water and education as a result.
It could be argued that had Bush not been elected, Blair’s would have been remembered well for his foreign policy, his overall reputation and therefore that of Labour would not have been tarnished, and there may well have been more Labour prime ministers subsequently. Sliding doors....
Says the person who thinks Corbyn didn’t have a successful election in 2017. Would a Labour Party fully supporting Corbyn have swung enough of the electorate for a Labour majority - we'll never know for sure. My bet is yes. All history now though.
I liked Corbyn as a backbencher and personally think he was (on the whole) an honourable person. He also deserves a lot of credit for energising young people in particular during the 2017 election. To me he lost a lot of credit for his equivocation over Brexit post-2017, when a bit of leadership (one way or the other) may have prevented the succession of Johnson.
I also think it is too early to judge Starmer. To quite a large degree as a leading labour politician you are fighting on enemy territory with regards to the media and probably have to tread very carefully regardless of what your actual position is.
I think leaving the government to fall apart on its own behalf is probably good politics.
The big disappointment I have with Blair was that he did all that difficult stuff in actually getting the country behind his version of labour but then didn’t bring in enough of the changes he probably would have liked to out of fear of losing some of that media support.
On Brexit, I could make an argument that more than anyone Nick Clegg is to blame. Despite bringing in what is a quite progressive graduate tax, he allowed Cameron to market it as a student loan. This spin decimated the LibDems credibility (okay so there is their support for some aspects of austerity which didn’t help) which allowed Cameron to unexpectedly win in 2015 and then call the referendum.
Detaching myself as far as possible it will be interesting to see where the new world order will fall over the next few years. Will we demand better of our politicians once the true scale of their incompetence and contempt for most of us becomes apparent? Or will we bury our heads in the sand as usual and carry on pretending that white, privileged, middle-aged, ex-public schoolboys really, really care about someone other than their own egos?
Corbyn didn't have a successful election in 2017, Chris. He lost,the other side (arguably the worst prime minister since the war fighting the worst campaign) won. That's not being successful. He did better than the expectations his leadership had created true, but successful? err no.
Oh it was an absolute triumph getting more than 50 seats less than his utterly incompetent Tory opponent.
Can't think why Blair didn't adopt the same strategy for each of his elections. All this hard work forming Government and actually doing things like securing peace in Northern Ireland and investing in public services and increasing the aid budget etc etc etc when its bloody obvious the real glory and success is coming second and not having the hassle of actually implementing boring old policy. Fecking idiot.
So that's an article that begins with confirmation that the author is a Corbyn supporters, one which talks about success "in London", and then the thoughts of Len McCluskey!!!!!
Heavens above, you'd have needed verbatim quotes from Alastair Campbell's diary "for balance" there
@bookertease post is close to my thinking. I think Corbyn was an effective backbencher and like The Beast of Bolsover has deeply held principles, he also did a lot for the party machine as leader but his muddled Brexit stance did for a lot of voters I think. Tony Blair also started well but disappointingly failed to translate a majority that was bigger than old Ma Thatcher's into any sort of great transformation of the country through fear of alienating Rupert and Dacre...made great interventions in the peace process, the Balkans and Sierra Leone but then tied his wagon (as Wilson had managed to avoid doing) to an obviously madcap disastrous US foreign policy decision based on stupidity at the top, greed, religious and political zeal rather than any sort of real factual evidence, reasoning or sensible forward planning. Also PPP projects were on the whole disastrous. But for all the controversy, he won another election, so like Thatch, he can bask in the self-righteous light of being forced out by his own party and never losing a poll. I did not realise Starmer had failed to say 'racist' which has so enraged the good doctor...but though he is not exactly a charismatic leader, I still think he is keeping his powder dry while Bozza flaps and flounders about until everyone forgets PM Cummings' gaff. While totally principle free people like him, Trump and Bolsanaro remain in power it enboldens Putin, Xi, Modi, and all of the other would be dictators so even if Starmer isn't burning up the dispatch box and didn't call out the racists in an acceptable way...and Biden has a patchy record and is as gaff-prone as a politician can possibly be and their terms in office may be disappointing to many of their voters I still hope they can both win their next election.
Comments
Agree @Chris Brexit was a risky Tory housekeeping exercise gone wrong by HR Manager Gammon Cameron which played straight into the hands of one note racists in his party and outside it (including in the Labour heartlands) but Corbyn is and was a long time supporter of getting out...so from my point of view his lack lustre opposition (not that there really was any) had to be dragged out of him. Also from my point of view his main platform seemed to be...we agree with getting out as people voted for it but we can get a better exit deal...which seeing as the Tories had already sold that dream of steadfast floppy haired British Dunkirk Churchill Spirit (them foreigners need us more than we need them) to the masses was never going to fly. He may have beaten Tony in votes, but not seats so it was as significant as Hillary winning 'the popular vote'. We got Bozzer and Trump. I would just prefer my vote didn't go back to just being a highly principled 'protest vote' as it was for such a long time. (Although obviously it still is in Bucks)
Even if Corbyn wasn’t the most enthusiastic or effective critic of Brexit it is ridiculous to say he has large responsibility for it.
No one would fairly give Corbyn the full blame for Brexit @Chris. I agree. There are many others responsible for that too. It is highly likely though that if Corbyn and Milne had not have (in all liklihood deliberately if not through gross incompetence) scuppered the Labour side of the Remain campaign, it is likely that remain would have won the 2016 referendum. We will never know for sure.
brexit is now lost for now. Corbyn has gone having lost two elections. Starmer offers hope that at the next election, the English Nationalists will be beaten and then he and an elected Labour can like Blair deliver improvements to our lives.
I disagree it is likely that remain would have won, and that there was any scuppering going on.
Oh there certainly was -whether deliberate or not. If not deliberate it was quite staggeringly incompetent. Would a proper Labour campaign clearly advocating the benefits of remain have swung 2% of the electorate - we'll never know for sure. My bet is yes. All history now though.
Question now is Starmer or Johnson? Nobrainer for me.
I think I actually prefer foul mouthed abusive @Chris
'Blue Labour' is a very niche website.
Don't think party allegiances had much to do with the original Vote...the concentration on immigration did for all moderates which is why it was so close. I think waving around a pasty, tub-thumbing, backstabbing, thousands of Turks coming in, lying, seizing his chance jokes a-plenty Bozzer did for Remain...and for Cameron. It was only his terror when Govey decided he did not fancy having to do all the legwork for a charlatan that stopped him taking the reins then.
@devc shouldn’t more blame be placed on those involved in leading the remain campaign (stronger in Europe or something like that) rather than Jeremy Corbyn?
No Labour ran their own campaign, "Labour in" , working with the official campaign. Corbyn and Milne did everything they could to undermine it. If it wasn't deliberate, the incompetence was breathtaking.
But as I said before, that is the past, the present and future is what matters. Starmer has a realistic chance to do what Blair did and Corbyn didn't. get elected, kick the Tories out, make the UK a better place.
Do you support him in that endeavour, even though he will only deliver part of what you wish?
Of course.
I'm not convinced Blair made the world a better place though.
It is for him and his family and surely his enormous popularity once out of office undermines your argument @Chris
He should have been prosecuted for the lies he made up leading to the Iraq war
Jesus wept..
You may want to reconsider that Chris.
Obviously Iraq destroyed Blair’s reputation. It was no doubt a disaster. Frankly though we were a bit player and Bush was doing that with or without the UK. We made little or no difference.
Apart from that his record is pretty positive.
His crowning achievement was peace in Northern Ireland setting a template for conflict resolution around the world. Others take credit there too but it wouldn’t have happened without Blair.
His interventions on Kosovo and Sierra Leone were positive.
But perhaps his greatest impact on the poorest people in the world was the Gleneagles summit in 2005 which resulted in significant third world debt write offs and large increases in aid (ours doubled in real terms) embedding the 0.7 per cent aid spend. Many kids have shelter, water and education as a result.
It could be argued that had Bush not been elected, Blair’s would have been remembered well for his foreign policy, his overall reputation and therefore that of Labour would not have been tarnished, and there may well have been more Labour prime ministers subsequently. Sliding doors....
It’s easy to give full credit for the good things and say the bad things were a ‘bit part’.
Its even easier to jgnore on principle the achievements of someone you politically don't like, it seems. You've been doing it for two days now.
Says the person who thinks Corbyn didn’t have a successful election in 2017. Would a Labour Party fully supporting Corbyn have swung enough of the electorate for a Labour majority - we'll never know for sure. My bet is yes. All history now though.
I liked Corbyn as a backbencher and personally think he was (on the whole) an honourable person. He also deserves a lot of credit for energising young people in particular during the 2017 election. To me he lost a lot of credit for his equivocation over Brexit post-2017, when a bit of leadership (one way or the other) may have prevented the succession of Johnson.
I also think it is too early to judge Starmer. To quite a large degree as a leading labour politician you are fighting on enemy territory with regards to the media and probably have to tread very carefully regardless of what your actual position is.
I think leaving the government to fall apart on its own behalf is probably good politics.
The big disappointment I have with Blair was that he did all that difficult stuff in actually getting the country behind his version of labour but then didn’t bring in enough of the changes he probably would have liked to out of fear of losing some of that media support.
On Brexit, I could make an argument that more than anyone Nick Clegg is to blame. Despite bringing in what is a quite progressive graduate tax, he allowed Cameron to market it as a student loan. This spin decimated the LibDems credibility (okay so there is their support for some aspects of austerity which didn’t help) which allowed Cameron to unexpectedly win in 2015 and then call the referendum.
Detaching myself as far as possible it will be interesting to see where the new world order will fall over the next few years. Will we demand better of our politicians once the true scale of their incompetence and contempt for most of us becomes apparent? Or will we bury our heads in the sand as usual and carry on pretending that white, privileged, middle-aged, ex-public schoolboys really, really care about someone other than their own egos?
Sadly I probably know what the answer will be
Corbyn didn't have a successful election in 2017, Chris. He lost,the other side (arguably the worst prime minister since the war fighting the worst campaign) won. That's not being successful. He did better than the expectations his leadership had created true, but successful? err no.
It is a bizarre cult that allows its members to believe that Corbyn was a greater electoral success than Blair
“The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
Neither side won?
No one doubts that Blair was electorally successful.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/june2017/2017/06/what-drove-labours-success-tough-line-immigration-and-appeal-middle-class
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2017-40213370/general-election-2017-huge-london-success-for-labour
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/16/success-for-labour-in-election-would-be-200-seats-says-mccluskey
For balance:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-corbyn-labour-opinion-polls-conservatives-a9202241.html
Oh it was an absolute triumph getting more than 50 seats less than his utterly incompetent Tory opponent.
Can't think why Blair didn't adopt the same strategy for each of his elections. All this hard work forming Government and actually doing things like securing peace in Northern Ireland and investing in public services and increasing the aid budget etc etc etc when its bloody obvious the real glory and success is coming second and not having the hassle of actually implementing boring old policy. Fecking idiot.
So that's an article that begins with confirmation that the author is a Corbyn supporters, one which talks about success "in London", and then the thoughts of Len McCluskey!!!!!
Heavens above, you'd have needed verbatim quotes from Alastair Campbell's diary "for balance" there
Corbyn’s performance was abject.
Nothing shifts the Overton window faster the wrong way than losing an election.
@bookertease post is close to my thinking. I think Corbyn was an effective backbencher and like The Beast of Bolsover has deeply held principles, he also did a lot for the party machine as leader but his muddled Brexit stance did for a lot of voters I think. Tony Blair also started well but disappointingly failed to translate a majority that was bigger than old Ma Thatcher's into any sort of great transformation of the country through fear of alienating Rupert and Dacre...made great interventions in the peace process, the Balkans and Sierra Leone but then tied his wagon (as Wilson had managed to avoid doing) to an obviously madcap disastrous US foreign policy decision based on stupidity at the top, greed, religious and political zeal rather than any sort of real factual evidence, reasoning or sensible forward planning. Also PPP projects were on the whole disastrous. But for all the controversy, he won another election, so like Thatch, he can bask in the self-righteous light of being forced out by his own party and never losing a poll. I did not realise Starmer had failed to say 'racist' which has so enraged the good doctor...but though he is not exactly a charismatic leader, I still think he is keeping his powder dry while Bozza flaps and flounders about until everyone forgets PM Cummings' gaff. While totally principle free people like him, Trump and Bolsanaro remain in power it enboldens Putin, Xi, Modi, and all of the other would be dictators so even if Starmer isn't burning up the dispatch box and didn't call out the racists in an acceptable way...and Biden has a patchy record and is as gaff-prone as a politician can possibly be and their terms in office may be disappointing to many of their voters I still hope they can both win their next election.
Looking forward to the return of @Wendoverman, the self-deprecating humorist and the departure of the political hectorist.