@OxfordBlue Completely agree. An automatic promotion place for a side that is currently in a play off spot doesn't sit easy with me (even if it was Wycombe). Promote those in the automatic spots, as they've done the most to earn it. Reduce the relegation places by 1. By doing this, you remove the most contentious issues.
Don't see how applying weighting to PPG can possibly be fair. Once you start applying weighting where do you draw the line?
@Wycombe85 said: @OxfordBlue Completely agree. An automatic promotion place for a side that is currently in a play off spot doesn't sit easy with me (even if it was Wycombe). Promote those in the automatic spots, as they've done the most to earn it. Reduce the relegation places by 1. By doing this, you remove the most contentious issues.
Don't see how applying weighting to PPG can possibly be fair. Once you start applying weighting where do you draw the line?
Glad to hear someone thinks I’m talking sense.
The two teams in the autos are clearly worthy. The EFL can dodge all these awkward arguments about teams from 8th to 3rd by just drawing a line under (or above) it.
Their is frankly virtually no chance of finishing the season by 30 June, Mr Middle. We certainly don't have loads of time if that is your aim.
But I dont really see the player contract issue. When football is ready to be played again, each club competing will need a squad of a minimum of around 18 players. It doesn't seem the end of the world if the season is finished starting playing again in say August even if the squads of many of the teams are very different to the ones that played in March.
From a sporting point of view, I would certainly agree with you - just wait until you can play again, finish this season then. wait a couple of weeks, start the next one, see whether you can complete that one without second wave interruption. Only once we are sure this Covid virus is controlled, then think about how to get the calendar back to ideal.
I don't know the financial implications though of finishing the season in the autumn versus abandoning this one and starting a new one then. I suspect there must be something in the detail here that makes it important to do as they seem to be doing.
In terms of promotion/relegation, surely the EFL has first to agree with the Premier League how many extra clubs if any it will take. Would the PL really go to 23 clubs, surely a max of 22 is far more logical?
Anyway here's the DevC proposed solution. If there are 23 clubs in the premier, cant see TV money increasing, so premier money has to be shared 23 ways instead of 20. So simply take that 3/23 PL cash and distribute it between the EFL clubs as a trade off for a season of no promotion or relegation.
I'm not really talking about an end of June deadline to finish this season @DevC . What I was saying was that we still have to pay three months money to players from now so what is the rush.
That money needs to be paid and if come June we are closer to a restart we can find a contract solution then.
I just don't get the rush. Is it media driven or am I missing why clubs need to know now?
Decide league tables by PPG. No relegation or promotion. Split all 3 EFL leagues into 4 based on PPG table, so a 6 (possibly 8) team mini-league. Bottom 2 (of 3) of the 1-6 (or 8) get relegated into the 7-12 mini league to be replaced by the top 2 and so on in all 4 mini leagues. Play as many rounds as feasible and aim for promotion and relegation from the top and bottom mini leagues at the end of next season.
Not ideal but i do think we need to be a lot more imaginative about next season than we currently appear to be
@Wycombe85 said: @OxfordBlue Completely agree. An automatic promotion place for a side that is currently in a play off spot doesn't sit easy with me (even if it was Wycombe). Promote those in the automatic spots, as they've done the most to earn it. Reduce the relegation places by 1. By doing this, you remove the most contentious issues.
Don't see how applying weighting to PPG can possibly be fair. Once you start applying weighting where do you draw the line?
Glad to hear someone thinks I’m talking sense.
The two teams in the autos are clearly worthy. The EFL can dodge all these awkward arguments about teams from 8th to 3rd by just drawing a line under (or above) it.
"Clearly" is a bit strong for Rotherham who are 2 points clear of 3rd, and 3 points clear of us with us having a game in hand.
@bookertease said:
Decide league tables by PPG. No relegation or promotion. Split all 3 EFL leagues into 4 based on PPG table, so a 6 (possibly 8) team mini-league. Bottom 2 (of 3) of the 1-6 (or 8) get relegated into the 7-12 mini league to be replaced by the top 2 and so on in all 4 mini leagues. Play as many rounds as feasible and aim for promotion and relegation from the top and bottom mini leagues at the end of next season.
Not ideal but i do think we need to be a lot more imaginative about next season than we currently appear to be
I like this kind of thinking, @bookertease. Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. It would also be kind of fun!
@Wycombe85 said: @OxfordBlue Completely agree. An automatic promotion place for a side that is currently in a play off spot doesn't sit easy with me (even if it was Wycombe). Promote those in the automatic spots, as they've done the most to earn it. Reduce the relegation places by 1. By doing this, you remove the most contentious issues.
Don't see how applying weighting to PPG can possibly be fair. Once you start applying weighting where do you draw the line?
Glad to hear someone thinks I’m talking sense.
The two teams in the autos are clearly worthy. The EFL can dodge all these awkward arguments about teams from 8th to 3rd by just drawing a line under (or above) it.
"Clearly" is a bit strong for Rotherham who are 2 points clear of 3rd, and 3 points clear of us with us having a game in hand.
If we had just beaten Doncaster in that last game...
@Wycombe85 said: @OxfordBlue Completely agree. An automatic promotion place for a side that is currently in a play off spot doesn't sit easy with me (even if it was Wycombe). Promote those in the automatic spots, as they've done the most to earn it. Reduce the relegation places by 1. By doing this, you remove the most contentious issues.
Don't see how applying weighting to PPG can possibly be fair. Once you start applying weighting where do you draw the line?
Glad to hear someone thinks I’m talking sense.
The two teams in the autos are clearly worthy. The EFL can dodge all these awkward arguments about teams from 8th to 3rd by just drawing a line under (or above) it.
"Clearly" is a bit strong for Rotherham who are 2 points clear of 3rd, and 3 points clear of us with us having a game in hand.
If we had just beaten Doncaster in that last game...
If they do go with that home and away split PPG thing it might come down to less than one win.
Would the Watford Chief Executive have had the same view if his team were realistically in the hunt for the title. Of course he wouldn't, he would have moved heaven and earth to get the outstanding games played. He knows that finishing the season will probably result in relegation for Watford along with Norwich.
Every Premier club owner/Director will put their clubs interest ahead of the Country's current health situation.
Would the Watford Chief Executive have had the same view if his team were realistically in the hunt for the title. Of course he wouldn't, he would have moved heaven and earth to get the outstanding games played. He knows that finishing the season will probably result in relegation for Watford along with Norwich.
Every Premier club owner/Director will put their clubs interest ahead of the Country's current health situation.
Yup, was commenting on the honesty rather than the approach. Neutral venues is a bit unfair as it's probably easier playing a big club at home but then again it might be a bit of a leveller as it'll be odd for everyone, they want their £ though so will need to get on with it. Either way it's better than a three sided rabble making up a formula that only benefits themselves.
@davecz said:
Do we believe today’s Sun newspaper? League to finish next week and the most likely solution PPG , meaning Wycombe get promoted.
It'll without doubt go on PPG but this home away split seems to be popping up. Athletic and talk sport going with that version.
Let's hope it's just an Oxford person trying to get it out there.
As while going up this way is a bit sheepish it'll certainly be a right arsehole losing out in such a way.
It looks like we are coming to the conclusion now. Almost all the story's on l1&l2 start the same: that the league will be cancelled and that clubs will vote on the method used to decide placings.
They then go on to have a guess at which way the clubs will vote
Both PPG models entail an element of prediction, but the weighted one adds a variable for the sake of it. I wouldn't believe the Sun or talkSPORT and even the Athletic story doesn't seem to give much foundation to the idea that weighted PPG is the preferred option.
This is the key bit from the Athletic:
"The Athletic has spoken to two other EFL clubs who said they were aware of this proposal and several others who said they were not, but every club approached said they knew of at least half a dozen different ideas that were circulating around the league. These include using the current tables to settle the finishing positions, a non-weighted PPG model and an idea to only count the first half of the season, which would be the first 22 games in League One and 23 games in League Two.
Some clubs have discussed using more complicated statistical models that factor in how hard each club’s run-in was before the season was suspended in March. There is considerable opposition to these models, though, with one club dismissing them as “hypothetical and unfair”."
@Malone said:
We can instantly rule out the current table due to games in hand, plus the half way league table would be ridiculous, as that wipes 1/4 of the season.
The one above just gets too far into awkward calculations.
So it surely has to be between the two variants of PPG.
Fingers crossed!
There is no reasonable choice to be made between PPG and PPG considering 1 of 100 factors.
One is a valid simple method, the other is complete statistical rubbish manufactured to get a specific result
@Malone said:
We can instantly rule out the current table due to games in hand, plus the half way league table would be ridiculous, as that wipes 1/4 of the season.
The one above just gets too far into awkward calculations.
So it surely has to be between the two variants of PPG.
Fingers crossed!
There is no reasonable choice to be made between PPG and PPG considering 1 of 100 factors.
One is a valid simple method, the other is complete statistical rubbish manufactured to get a specific result
Let's hope so.
The fear is the league have a look at both, and one leaves the same top 3 as now, and one boosts the team in 8th to 3rd.
We know there's a lot more context to that, but it looks a huge change around...which they might not like the look of.
@Malone said:
We can instantly rule out the current table due to games in hand, plus the half way league table would be ridiculous, as that wipes 1/4 of the season.
The one above just gets too far into awkward calculations.
So it surely has to be between the two variants of PPG.
Fingers crossed!
@Malone said:
We can instantly rule out the current table due to games in hand, plus the half way league table would be ridiculous, as that wipes 1/4 of the season.
The one above just gets too far into awkward calculations.
So it surely has to be between the two variants of PPG.
Fingers crossed!
There is no reasonable choice to be made between PPG and PPG considering 1 of 100 factors.
One is a valid simple method, the other is complete statistical rubbish manufactured to get a specific result
Let's hope so.
The fear is the league have a look at both, and one leaves the same top 3 as now, and one boosts the team in 8th to 3rd.
We know there's a lot more context to that, but it looks a huge change around...which they might not like the look of.
Surely that huge change around is just winning the game in hand?
@Malone said:
We can instantly rule out the current table due to games in hand, plus the half way league table would be ridiculous, as that wipes 1/4 of the season.
The one above just gets too far into awkward calculations.
So it surely has to be between the two variants of PPG.
Fingers crossed!
There is no reasonable choice to be made between PPG and PPG considering 1 of 100 factors.
One is a valid simple method, the other is complete statistical rubbish manufactured to get a specific result
Let's hope so.
The fear is the league have a look at both, and one leaves the same top 3 as now, and one boosts the team in 8th to 3rd.
We know there's a lot more context to that, but it looks a huge change around...which they might not like the look of.
Surely that huge change around is just winning the game in hand?
We know that, and that's in my context comment, but on the face of it it looks a big swing.
Plus add in that our game in hand is away at not only league leaders, but also our absolute bogey team Coventry.
@Malone said:
We can instantly rule out the current table due to games in hand, plus the half way league table would be ridiculous, as that wipes 1/4 of the season.
The one above just gets too far into awkward calculations.
So it surely has to be between the two variants of PPG.
Fingers crossed!
The halfway table would make us Champions though!
Ha! True, but they can't possibly take that option.
@Malone said:
We know that, and that's in my context comment, but on the face of it it looks a big swing.
Plus add in that our game in hand is away at not only league leaders, but also our absolute bogey team Coventry.
If we need to factor bogey teams in to any equation then it really is bad. Surely in an odd numbered league our game in hand isn't necessarily the Coventry away game as every week someone is missing a game? Out of the top eight who has already had there two Bury days and who hasn't?
@Malone said:
We know that, and that's in my context comment, but on the face of it it looks a big swing.
Plus add in that our game in hand is away at not only league leaders, but also our absolute bogey team Coventry.
If we need to factor bogey teams in to any equation then it really is bad. Surely in an odd numbered league our game in hand isn't necessarily the Coventry away game as every week someone is missing a game? Out of the top eight who has already had there two Bury days and who hasn't?
Good points, and hopefully therefore not something they'll factor in!
The PPG or the PPG weighted home and away materially affects only us and Oxford across all three divisions. (there may be the odd club moving from say 16th to 17th but no one else would much care).
You have to assume the other 69 clubs would vote on a mixture of
1) which system they thought fairer
2) whether they like us or Oxford more
3) whether they want us or Oxford in their division next season
Its quite a fine argument between the two tbh. Could go either way.
Comments
@OxfordBlue Completely agree. An automatic promotion place for a side that is currently in a play off spot doesn't sit easy with me (even if it was Wycombe). Promote those in the automatic spots, as they've done the most to earn it. Reduce the relegation places by 1. By doing this, you remove the most contentious issues.
Don't see how applying weighting to PPG can possibly be fair. Once you start applying weighting where do you draw the line?
Glad to hear someone thinks I’m talking sense.
The two teams in the autos are clearly worthy. The EFL can dodge all these awkward arguments about teams from 8th to 3rd by just drawing a line under (or above) it.
Their is frankly virtually no chance of finishing the season by 30 June, Mr Middle. We certainly don't have loads of time if that is your aim.
But I dont really see the player contract issue. When football is ready to be played again, each club competing will need a squad of a minimum of around 18 players. It doesn't seem the end of the world if the season is finished starting playing again in say August even if the squads of many of the teams are very different to the ones that played in March.
From a sporting point of view, I would certainly agree with you - just wait until you can play again, finish this season then. wait a couple of weeks, start the next one, see whether you can complete that one without second wave interruption. Only once we are sure this Covid virus is controlled, then think about how to get the calendar back to ideal.
I don't know the financial implications though of finishing the season in the autumn versus abandoning this one and starting a new one then. I suspect there must be something in the detail here that makes it important to do as they seem to be doing.
In terms of promotion/relegation, surely the EFL has first to agree with the Premier League how many extra clubs if any it will take. Would the PL really go to 23 clubs, surely a max of 22 is far more logical?
Anyway here's the DevC proposed solution. If there are 23 clubs in the premier, cant see TV money increasing, so premier money has to be shared 23 ways instead of 20. So simply take that 3/23 PL cash and distribute it between the EFL clubs as a trade off for a season of no promotion or relegation.
I'm not really talking about an end of June deadline to finish this season @DevC . What I was saying was that we still have to pay three months money to players from now so what is the rush.
That money needs to be paid and if come June we are closer to a restart we can find a contract solution then.
I just don't get the rush. Is it media driven or am I missing why clubs need to know now?
I suspect it must be finance driven but I confess I dont really understand why.
From a sporting point of view, I agree with you, just wait as long as it takes.
Decide league tables by PPG. No relegation or promotion. Split all 3 EFL leagues into 4 based on PPG table, so a 6 (possibly 8) team mini-league. Bottom 2 (of 3) of the 1-6 (or 8) get relegated into the 7-12 mini league to be replaced by the top 2 and so on in all 4 mini leagues. Play as many rounds as feasible and aim for promotion and relegation from the top and bottom mini leagues at the end of next season.
Not ideal but i do think we need to be a lot more imaginative about next season than we currently appear to be
"Clearly" is a bit strong for Rotherham who are 2 points clear of 3rd, and 3 points clear of us with us having a game in hand.
I like this kind of thinking, @bookertease. Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures. It would also be kind of fun!
If we had just beaten Doncaster in that last game...
If they do go with that home and away split PPG thing it might come down to less than one win.
They aren't even pretending they are interested the good of the game any more, which is progress of sorts
Do we believe today’s Sun newspaper? League to finish next week and the most likely solution PPG , meaning Wycombe get promoted.
Would the Watford Chief Executive have had the same view if his team were realistically in the hunt for the title. Of course he wouldn't, he would have moved heaven and earth to get the outstanding games played. He knows that finishing the season will probably result in relegation for Watford along with Norwich.
Every Premier club owner/Director will put their clubs interest ahead of the Country's current health situation.
Yup, was commenting on the honesty rather than the approach. Neutral venues is a bit unfair as it's probably easier playing a big club at home but then again it might be a bit of a leveller as it'll be odd for everyone, they want their £ though so will need to get on with it. Either way it's better than a three sided rabble making up a formula that only benefits themselves.
It'll without doubt go on PPG but this home away split seems to be popping up. Athletic and talk sport going with that version.
Let's hope it's just an Oxford person trying to get it out there.
As while going up this way is a bit sheepish it'll certainly be a right arsehole losing out in such a way.
It looks like we are coming to the conclusion now. Almost all the story's on l1&l2 start the same: that the league will be cancelled and that clubs will vote on the method used to decide placings.
They then go on to have a guess at which way the clubs will vote
Both PPG models entail an element of prediction, but the weighted one adds a variable for the sake of it. I wouldn't believe the Sun or talkSPORT and even the Athletic story doesn't seem to give much foundation to the idea that weighted PPG is the preferred option.
This is the key bit from the Athletic:
"The Athletic has spoken to two other EFL clubs who said they were aware of this proposal and several others who said they were not, but every club approached said they knew of at least half a dozen different ideas that were circulating around the league. These include using the current tables to settle the finishing positions, a non-weighted PPG model and an idea to only count the first half of the season, which would be the first 22 games in League One and 23 games in League Two.
Some clubs have discussed using more complicated statistical models that factor in how hard each club’s run-in was before the season was suspended in March. There is considerable opposition to these models, though, with one club dismissing them as “hypothetical and unfair”."
This is one of the best ones I've seen:
We can instantly rule out the current table due to games in hand, plus the half way league table would be ridiculous, as that wipes 1/4 of the season.
The one above just gets too far into awkward calculations.
So it surely has to be between the two variants of PPG.
Fingers crossed!
There is no reasonable choice to be made between PPG and PPG considering 1 of 100 factors.
One is a valid simple method, the other is complete statistical rubbish manufactured to get a specific result
Let's hope so.
The fear is the league have a look at both, and one leaves the same top 3 as now, and one boosts the team in 8th to 3rd.
We know there's a lot more context to that, but it looks a huge change around...which they might not like the look of.
The halfway table would make us Champions though!
Surely that huge change around is just winning the game in hand?
And presumably it will be all 71 EFL clubs that vote so I can’t imagine the 8th to 3rd will worry many
We know that, and that's in my context comment, but on the face of it it looks a big swing.
Plus add in that our game in hand is away at not only league leaders, but also our absolute bogey team Coventry.
Let's hope so! Can't boost many having that extra fiddly part to PPG
Ha! True, but they can't possibly take that option.
If we need to factor bogey teams in to any equation then it really is bad. Surely in an odd numbered league our game in hand isn't necessarily the Coventry away game as every week someone is missing a game? Out of the top eight who has already had there two Bury days and who hasn't?
Good points, and hopefully therefore not something they'll factor in!
The PPG or the PPG weighted home and away materially affects only us and Oxford across all three divisions. (there may be the odd club moving from say 16th to 17th but no one else would much care).
You have to assume the other 69 clubs would vote on a mixture of
1) which system they thought fairer
2) whether they like us or Oxford more
3) whether they want us or Oxford in their division next season
Its quite a fine argument between the two tbh. Could go either way.