I don’t care whether we have cheerleaders or not, doesn’t bother me either way. I am saying that a handful of people who prefer to moan about such a trivial thing when there’s so much positivity around the club don’t necessarily reflect the views of the majority of Wycombe fans.
I feel you're being a but unfair there Alan. Without re-reading the thread, I think the people who are against this, or at least uncomfortable about it (myself included) have by and large given their reasons thoughtfully. I'm sure the addition of cheerleaders was a well-intentioned decision, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with it and it doesn't necessarily make it the correct call.
There's been plenty of praise and admiration on here for what Rob Couhig and his team have accomplished in a short space of time, but I don't think I'm just 'moaning' or being negative when I say I feel this is a mis-step.
Interesting that a number of female Wycombe fans appear to have taken against this news both on Twitter and Facebook. Are they just being negative? Or perhaps we should consider their opinions and think carefully about how scantily clad dancing girls (and the way they may/probably will be treated by sections of our fanbase) will look to new and existing female fans.
Johnny, I appreciate you expressing your opinion in a respectful manner and I do understand your point of view. It just frustrates me that people are so negative about a fairly minor initiative when there are so many good things going on at the moment.
Our new investors aren’t going to get everything right, but we should give them the chance to test the water.
It’s possible that more people will be in favour of the cheerleaders idea than those who are against it.
It's very easy to just go 'it's not that deep', but that's the kind of attitude that gets us nowhere. The conversation around this is very welcome. I think the question you need to ask yourself is: can you imagine a corresponding scenario in a well attended women's sport? There's obviously plenty to be positive about, but we shouldn't ignore the negatives.
The only saving grace in this decision is look at it from “within” so to speak. Cheer leading is regarded as a sport in its own right, particularly in the US. From that point of view and if it is done to the level of athleticism you see of cheer leading squads in the US then it could have merit and entertainment value.
If, as I suspect, it turns out to be a bunch of teenage girls in short skirts, tight tops and waving the odd Pom Pom at the crowd, it suddenly becomes a bit less entertaining and a lot more exploitative.
After the success of the Women's World Cup this summer there are hopefully lots of girls in the area harassing their parents to take them to see a game. If it's their first game on Saturday is this the sort of message we want to be sending them?
One thing they could to improve the match day experience would to be install vending machines for drinks ,chocolates and crisps in the Frank Adama concourse thus taking the pressure off the kiosks You are then only queuing for hot food Drinks would still be available in the kiosks
Mr67, that’s something that I have recommended but these things will take time to materialise. Our new investors have lots of ideas and as long as we encourage them to keep trying, I’m confident they’ll get more right than wrong.
Respectfully Alan, what you describe as a “fairly minor initiative”, I describe as something I will never take my 3 daughters to as long as it exists at Adams park. That is already some lost revenue for the season, and I very much doubt I’m the only parent of daughters that doesn’t want to raise them to think that their role in football or life in general is as an object of entertainment for men.
Dr Congo, I respect your point of view since it is clearly sincerely held, but I think some people are reading far too much into this. As has been mentioned on here, cheerleading is seen in a completely different light in the US and indeed by many people in this country. My own daughter attended cheerleading classes when she was a pupil at Wycombe High School.
It was mentioned in the story on our club website that Manchester City and other clubs have used this particular troupe and I know that Crystal Palace have cheerleaders at every home game. Of course, I accept that that doesn’t make it more acceptable if you’re against the idea in the first place.
My objection to the negative response on here and on the FB page is that some people used it as a stick with which to beat the American investors, who are doing their best to improve things. They’ve already proved that they will listen so I’m sure they will respond if there’s a sufficient outcry. Let’s see how the cheerleaders idea works out in practice before condemning it.
If the aim is to get more women attending matches and for them to not be subjected to sexist remarks, then this idea is not likely to achieve that judging by the reactions of many women on social media, as well as the predictable pathetic comments by men whose brains reside in their underwear. While leering 'get your tits out for the lads' at young girls might have been tolerated the last time half-time dancers were brought in 2001, the world is a rather different place in 2019.
Seeing as we are still nominally a fans owned club, you'd have thought that some fans' opinions were canvassed, as well as the opinions of some of the demographic that you are trying to entice to matches.
@drcongo said:
Respectfully Alan, what you describe as a “fairly minor initiative”, I describe as something I will never take my 3 daughters to as long as it exists at Adams park. That is already some lost revenue for the season, and I very much doubt I’m the only parent of daughters that doesn’t want to raise them to think that their role in football or life in general is as an object of entertainment for men.
Do you post on the fb group as well?
A chap who I believed was yourself seemed to be in favour of this initiative, so I had to re-read your post above!
Maybe it's not you!
@ReadingMarginalista said:
If the aim is to get more women attending matches and for them to not be subjected to sexist remarks, then this idea is not likely to achieve that judging by the reactions of many women on social media, as well as the predictable pathetic comments by men whose brains reside in their underwear. While leering 'get your tits out for the lads' at young girls might have been tolerated the last time half-time dancers were brought in 2001, the world is a rather different place in 2019.
Seeing as we are still nominally a fans owned club, you'd have thought that some fans' opinions were canvassed, as well as the opinions of some of the demographic that you are trying to entice to matches.
Did this actually happen last time round?
I'm slightly surprised at some of the comments on here.
I just saw it as something different - not something that I'd especially race to a ground to see, but it breaks up the tedious pen shoot outs, and is an opportunity for a young bunch of women who are probably quite passionate about what they do, to showcase their ability on a big stage. Such a shame people instantly take the negative on it.
I definitely remember it being sung at the dancers in 2001. Don't know if it happened to those Mana cheerleaders we had in recent years, but judging from some of the leering comments being made on social media, clearly certain men haven't moved on since 2001. Personally I'm less bothered about having cheerleaders, more worried about how you know they're going to be treated by sections of our fanbase. That's whats going to do the damage IMO.
More female Wycombe fans voicing their displeasure on social media today. I really think we should be listening to them.
Wow, what a bunch of moaners. If some people on here found a pay packet stuffed with £20 notes in a gutter, they would moan about the amount tax deducted.
Be positive the buzz is back at the club!!!
Do you have a link, or PM a link to that @Jonny_King .
Not being on twitter, I just saw one light hearted fb post from a woman wanting topless cowboys or something! But that's all.
@glasshalffull said:
... As has been mentioned on here, cheerleading is seen in a completely different light in the US and indeed by many people in this country. My own daughter attended cheerleading classes when she was a pupil at Wycombe High School...
If what was being proposed for Adams Park was the presence of one of those sport cheerleading groups, performing athletic, gymnastic routines and possibly including male as well as female members then I personally would not have an issue with that. A friend of my daughter is part of one such troupe and travels all over the country to take part in various competitions and it all seems above board and a good hobby activity for her to take part in.
This, however, is not what we are going to get at Adams Park. What we will be presented with as "cheerleaders" on Saturday is a collection of models/dancers whose chief purpose is to look attractive and provide a bit of "glamour". I do not support that.
@drcongo said:
Respectfully Alan, what you describe as a “fairly minor initiative”, I describe as something I will never take my 3 daughters to as long as it exists at Adams park. That is already some lost revenue for the season, and I very much doubt I’m the only parent of daughters that doesn’t want to raise them to think that their role in football or life in general is as an object of entertainment for men.
@drcongo Have you communicated this directly to the club as well as on this forum? If not then I believe you should, so that they can appreciate the strength of feeling that some people have regarding this initiative.
I'm a bit uncomfortable about the way these women are being described and spoken about on here. Are they not capable of making choices or do they need a man to pass an equality judgement on them. To me men without knowing someone's motivations doing so seems both objectifying and patronising
Looking back, what other half time entertainment have we had over the years?
Loads of kids and pens
A few very rare dancing acts
The one off sky dive.
A few minor celebs wandering around
A few legends wandering around
Maybe the latter would be the least controversial regular feature? Get a legend to smile and wave, do a bit on the microphone and even have a wander about?
It’s cheerleaders, not strippers. Not my bag but nothing to be exercised about. Let them have their wholesome, enthusiastic fun and let those that would enjoy it do so. I don’t expect a hoard of mac-wearing perverts to suddenly appear pitchside.
@drcongo said:
Respectfully Alan, what you describe as a “fairly minor initiative”, I describe as something I will never take my 3 daughters to as long as it exists at Adams park. That is already some lost revenue for the season, and I very much doubt I’m the only parent of daughters that doesn’t want to raise them to think that their role in football or life in general is as an object of entertainment for men.
Do you post on the fb group as well?
A chap who I believed was yourself seemed to be in favour of this initiative, so I had to re-read your post above!
Maybe it's not you!
Good lord no. I work in tech so I know what Facebook does with all the data they gather on you. Deleted my Facebook account about 7 years ago and not in a million years would I ever have one again.
@Blue_since_1990 said:
Wow, what a bunch of moaners. If some people on here found a pay packet stuffed with £20 notes in a gutter, they would moan about the amount tax deducted.
Be positive the buzz is back at the club!!!
Incredible scenes. Our very own Make Wycombe Great Again flag waver.
Regardless of what form it may take, I would be interested to know whether the posters on this forum feel there is actually a need for some form of half-time entertainment to improve their "Game Day Experience." I don't.
If you count the 50/50 draw as half-time entertainment then I admit, were that not to take place, that I would miss the experience of holding my breath and raising my hopes only to have them dashed, tear up my ticket and deposit it in a bin each match on my way for a half-time visit to the toilet. But that's it.
The half-time kids penalty activity is great for those who it is aimed at - the kids themselves and their attendant friends and family - and I am sure a number of kids involved will subsequently wish to return and may become long-term supporters. Long may that or something similar continue, since it is a useful marketing tool. On the occasions when it doesn't occur (e.g. some evening matches) I can't say the absence of this activity impacts on my "Game Day Experience" though.
Comments
I don’t care whether we have cheerleaders or not, doesn’t bother me either way. I am saying that a handful of people who prefer to moan about such a trivial thing when there’s so much positivity around the club don’t necessarily reflect the views of the majority of Wycombe fans.
I feel you're being a but unfair there Alan. Without re-reading the thread, I think the people who are against this, or at least uncomfortable about it (myself included) have by and large given their reasons thoughtfully. I'm sure the addition of cheerleaders was a well-intentioned decision, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with it and it doesn't necessarily make it the correct call.
There's been plenty of praise and admiration on here for what Rob Couhig and his team have accomplished in a short space of time, but I don't think I'm just 'moaning' or being negative when I say I feel this is a mis-step.
Interesting that a number of female Wycombe fans appear to have taken against this news both on Twitter and Facebook. Are they just being negative? Or perhaps we should consider their opinions and think carefully about how scantily clad dancing girls (and the way they may/probably will be treated by sections of our fanbase) will look to new and existing female fans.
Johnny, I appreciate you expressing your opinion in a respectful manner and I do understand your point of view. It just frustrates me that people are so negative about a fairly minor initiative when there are so many good things going on at the moment.
Our new investors aren’t going to get everything right, but we should give them the chance to test the water.
It’s possible that more people will be in favour of the cheerleaders idea than those who are against it.
It's very easy to just go 'it's not that deep', but that's the kind of attitude that gets us nowhere. The conversation around this is very welcome. I think the question you need to ask yourself is: can you imagine a corresponding scenario in a well attended women's sport? There's obviously plenty to be positive about, but we shouldn't ignore the negatives.
The only saving grace in this decision is look at it from “within” so to speak. Cheer leading is regarded as a sport in its own right, particularly in the US. From that point of view and if it is done to the level of athleticism you see of cheer leading squads in the US then it could have merit and entertainment value.
If, as I suspect, it turns out to be a bunch of teenage girls in short skirts, tight tops and waving the odd Pom Pom at the crowd, it suddenly becomes a bit less entertaining and a lot more exploitative.
After the success of the Women's World Cup this summer there are hopefully lots of girls in the area harassing their parents to take them to see a game. If it's their first game on Saturday is this the sort of message we want to be sending them?
I'm all for it as long as they show it on the screens in the Caledonian Suite while i enjoy a refreshing Rebellion
One thing they could to improve the match day experience would to be install vending machines for drinks ,chocolates and crisps in the Frank Adama concourse thus taking the pressure off the kiosks You are then only queuing for hot food Drinks would still be available in the kiosks
Mr67, that’s something that I have recommended but these things will take time to materialise. Our new investors have lots of ideas and as long as we encourage them to keep trying, I’m confident they’ll get more right than wrong.
Respectfully Alan, what you describe as a “fairly minor initiative”, I describe as something I will never take my 3 daughters to as long as it exists at Adams park. That is already some lost revenue for the season, and I very much doubt I’m the only parent of daughters that doesn’t want to raise them to think that their role in football or life in general is as an object of entertainment for men.
Dr Congo, I respect your point of view since it is clearly sincerely held, but I think some people are reading far too much into this. As has been mentioned on here, cheerleading is seen in a completely different light in the US and indeed by many people in this country. My own daughter attended cheerleading classes when she was a pupil at Wycombe High School.
It was mentioned in the story on our club website that Manchester City and other clubs have used this particular troupe and I know that Crystal Palace have cheerleaders at every home game. Of course, I accept that that doesn’t make it more acceptable if you’re against the idea in the first place.
My objection to the negative response on here and on the FB page is that some people used it as a stick with which to beat the American investors, who are doing their best to improve things. They’ve already proved that they will listen so I’m sure they will respond if there’s a sufficient outcry. Let’s see how the cheerleaders idea works out in practice before condemning it.
If the aim is to get more women attending matches and for them to not be subjected to sexist remarks, then this idea is not likely to achieve that judging by the reactions of many women on social media, as well as the predictable pathetic comments by men whose brains reside in their underwear. While leering 'get your tits out for the lads' at young girls might have been tolerated the last time half-time dancers were brought in 2001, the world is a rather different place in 2019.
Seeing as we are still nominally a fans owned club, you'd have thought that some fans' opinions were canvassed, as well as the opinions of some of the demographic that you are trying to entice to matches.
Do you post on the fb group as well?
A chap who I believed was yourself seemed to be in favour of this initiative, so I had to re-read your post above!
Maybe it's not you!
Did this actually happen last time round?
I'm slightly surprised at some of the comments on here.
I just saw it as something different - not something that I'd especially race to a ground to see, but it breaks up the tedious pen shoot outs, and is an opportunity for a young bunch of women who are probably quite passionate about what they do, to showcase their ability on a big stage. Such a shame people instantly take the negative on it.
I definitely remember it being sung at the dancers in 2001. Don't know if it happened to those Mana cheerleaders we had in recent years, but judging from some of the leering comments being made on social media, clearly certain men haven't moved on since 2001. Personally I'm less bothered about having cheerleaders, more worried about how you know they're going to be treated by sections of our fanbase. That's whats going to do the damage IMO.
More female Wycombe fans voicing their displeasure on social media today. I really think we should be listening to them.
Wow, what a bunch of moaners. If some people on here found a pay packet stuffed with £20 notes in a gutter, they would moan about the amount tax deducted.
Be positive the buzz is back at the club!!!
Do you have a link, or PM a link to that @Jonny_King .
Not being on twitter, I just saw one light hearted fb post from a woman wanting topless cowboys or something! But that's all.
If what was being proposed for Adams Park was the presence of one of those sport cheerleading groups, performing athletic, gymnastic routines and possibly including male as well as female members then I personally would not have an issue with that. A friend of my daughter is part of one such troupe and travels all over the country to take part in various competitions and it all seems above board and a good hobby activity for her to take part in.
This, however, is not what we are going to get at Adams Park. What we will be presented with as "cheerleaders" on Saturday is a collection of models/dancers whose chief purpose is to look attractive and provide a bit of "glamour". I do not support that.
Thx @Jonny_King I'll look out for one tomorrow
Yes I'm glad that racism, homophobla and sexism are now gone from society and its exciting new initiatives like this we need for the sport.
@drcongo Have you communicated this directly to the club as well as on this forum? If not then I believe you should, so that they can appreciate the strength of feeling that some people have regarding this initiative.
I'm a bit uncomfortable about the way these women are being described and spoken about on here. Are they not capable of making choices or do they need a man to pass an equality judgement on them. To me men without knowing someone's motivations doing so seems both objectifying and patronising
Looking back, what other half time entertainment have we had over the years?
Loads of kids and pens
A few very rare dancing acts
The one off sky dive.
A few minor celebs wandering around
A few legends wandering around
Maybe the latter would be the least controversial regular feature? Get a legend to smile and wave, do a bit on the microphone and even have a wander about?
Didn't we once have a keepy uppy champion?
It’s cheerleaders, not strippers. Not my bag but nothing to be exercised about. Let them have their wholesome, enthusiastic fun and let those that would enjoy it do so. I don’t expect a hoard of mac-wearing perverts to suddenly appear pitchside.
Good lord no. I work in tech so I know what Facebook does with all the data they gather on you. Deleted my Facebook account about 7 years ago and not in a million years would I ever have one again.
Well said @HCblue
Incredible scenes. Our very own Make Wycombe Great Again flag waver.
There are male cheerleaders!
Regardless of what form it may take, I would be interested to know whether the posters on this forum feel there is actually a need for some form of half-time entertainment to improve their "Game Day Experience." I don't.
If you count the 50/50 draw as half-time entertainment then I admit, were that not to take place, that I would miss the experience of holding my breath and raising my hopes only to have them dashed, tear up my ticket and deposit it in a bin each match on my way for a half-time visit to the toilet. But that's it.
The half-time kids penalty activity is great for those who it is aimed at - the kids themselves and their attendant friends and family - and I am sure a number of kids involved will subsequently wish to return and may become long-term supporters. Long may that or something similar continue, since it is a useful marketing tool. On the occasions when it doesn't occur (e.g. some evening matches) I can't say the absence of this activity impacts on my "Game Day Experience" though.