Really @Devc do you watch or read about football at all? I would suggest he has been treated badly considering the work he did for the clubs he worked for compared to other managers -Newcastle for example - though poor quality club owners rather than race probably the issue - in fact Stan claims he is an example of a safe quiet black man, whereas I would suggest he has done a fine job for years and has proved to be a competent manager and excellent role model. Though, to be fair I'm sure a ginger person has been treated worse.
Also we should also bear in mind some of the countries the new owners looking to hide their cash in football are hailing from are not renowned for their racial tolerance.
Re Houghton, many people at the time were in agreement that he was harshly sacked from Newcastle.
he was apparently offered a number of assistant manager jobs before taking a job at a decent championship side, Birmingham.
he did well in the Championship and was offered a premier league job at Norwich. he did OK there but was sacked with his team on the edge of relegation in his second season. Most managers probably would have been.
he got offered another job at championship Brighton and has done well. he is still there.
overall he doesn't seem to have been treated particularly well or particularly poorly by the standards of football management.
So you did know then @DevC ? Hurrah! you win...racism doesn't exist in football...there's no evidence white managers get jobs despite their dodgy backgrounds...it's all just PC gone mad/tokenism/fodder for right-wing populists and we should all just shut up about it. Got it.
Seriously...call your GP now or push that button on your lanyard. The drugs aren't working. For someone quite pompous and Trumpesquely thinned skinned about perceived insult I'm surprised you decided to go full richie!
I didn't accuse you of racism...you seemed to expend a lot of energy in this case suggesting there is absolutely no evidence of racism in choosing football managers and it will inflame right-wing populists to suggest otherwise. Hurrah for you. So I see your twat and raise you a bugger off you miserable old get.
I have no desire to swap insults with you. Please do not misrepresent what people say on sensitive subjects such as racism. it is unfunny and unacceptable. Don't do it.
@DevC said:
I have no desire to swap insults with you. Please do not misrepresent what people say on sensitive subjects such as racism. it is unfunny and unacceptable. Don't do it.
Slightly side-stepping the racism that is implied by the oversight (which I truly believe culturally there is) I think Sol Campbell isn't the example this cause needs, as he appears to be incredibly arrogant and entitled - wasn't there a faff when he was offended before even having an interview that Grimsby didn't immediately offer him the job?
And Lampard's a slightly poor example too, because every coach he's ever worked with has said how he's ridiculously smart. A mere glimpse at his punditry shows the intelligence he must carry himself with in interviews.
@prufrock_91 agree and his campaign for Tory london mayor puts me off as well....I think Collymore used Campbell as an example (poor as it was) as he was a contemporary of Gerrard and Lampard...and his attacks on Ian Wright, Hughton and Jermaine Jenas were strange...but as you say the issue itself does raise questions for some. Unsettling as it is for others. Lampard is supposed to have a massive IQ and does seem a decent cove though as a Forest fan, I hope he starts his managerial career with an instructive, but miserable failure at Shame Park.
It would be really disappointing if we cant have conversations about serious issues without posters deliberately misrepresenting others and then drawing implications of racism etc. Wendover, I usually enjoy your posts, you are way out of line here, (IMHO of course). If we go down that road, we become just another facebook with puerile "bantz". that would be a shame.
Back to the subject in hand, we seem to have reached a stage of broad agreement. The figures suggest there is (at best) subconscious racism in recruitment of football managers resulting in a underrepresentation of black ex-players. It is however not necessarily racism that stops an individual black ex-player getting a job - that could be because of all sorts of factors - not least that that human being might be a bit of a knob. Sol Campbell appears to fall into the latter category.
I posted an article and you were off on one from almost your first post where you implied I was implying something and then patronisingly explained The Racism to me. Then you introduced Paul Scholes for the old Little Englander trope of equating ginger hair or big ears with race. I know now I should not have risen to your WUM bait, but where did I misrepresent you before you called me a twat?
'do you believe Campbell's inability to get a job is primarily down to racism or unsuitability on account of his bellendism?
While you are at it, was Paul Scholes similar failing down to unsuitability or being ginger?'
So that's not equating Campbell not getting a job down to race to Scholes not getting a job down to being ginger? I think you're misrepresenting what I misrepresented which is misrepresentation.
Comments
Really @Devc do you watch or read about football at all? I would suggest he has been treated badly considering the work he did for the clubs he worked for compared to other managers -Newcastle for example - though poor quality club owners rather than race probably the issue - in fact Stan claims he is an example of a safe quiet black man, whereas I would suggest he has done a fine job for years and has proved to be a competent manager and excellent role model. Though, to be fair I'm sure a ginger person has been treated worse.
@fezziwig I thought so, I was having probably editing on my dog and bone as well!
Also we should also bear in mind some of the countries the new owners looking to hide their cash in football are hailing from are not renowned for their racial tolerance.
Re Houghton, many people at the time were in agreement that he was harshly sacked from Newcastle.
he was apparently offered a number of assistant manager jobs before taking a job at a decent championship side, Birmingham.
he did well in the Championship and was offered a premier league job at Norwich. he did OK there but was sacked with his team on the edge of relegation in his second season. Most managers probably would have been.
he got offered another job at championship Brighton and has done well. he is still there.
overall he doesn't seem to have been treated particularly well or particularly poorly by the standards of football management.
So you did know then @DevC ? Hurrah! you win...racism doesn't exist in football...there's no evidence white managers get jobs despite their dodgy backgrounds...it's all just PC gone mad/tokenism/fodder for right-wing populists and we should all just shut up about it. Got it.
Cheers - working now thank goodness
Don't be a twat, Wendover.
Seriously...call your GP now or push that button on your lanyard. The drugs aren't working. For someone quite pompous and Trumpesquely thinned skinned about perceived insult I'm surprised you decided to go full richie!
"Jokes" misrepresenting people and accusing them of racism as a result are not remotely funny. As I say don't be a twat.
For someone quite pompous and Trumpesquely thinned skinned about perceived insult I'm surprised you decided to go full richie!
I didn't accuse you of racism...you seemed to expend a lot of energy in this case suggesting there is absolutely no evidence of racism in choosing football managers and it will inflame right-wing populists to suggest otherwise. Hurrah for you. So I see your twat and raise you a bugger off you miserable old get.
I have no desire to swap insults with you. Please do not misrepresent what people say on sensitive subjects such as racism. it is unfunny and unacceptable. Don't do it.
I have no desire to trade insults with you, you fat-arsed insufferably pompous little englander. So don't do it. (seriously get a check-up)
Unless of course you do it, and then it's ok!
I lack the intellect to understand the nuances and semantics of this long-running skirmish but, above all, who the hell is Chris Houghton?
since I don't seem to be able to edit in this new system so well. Perhaps my PC is too ginger...my revised 2.35 post is:
I have no desire to trade insults with you, you fat-arsed insufferably pompous little englander. So don't do it. (seriously get a check-up)
Just for clarity.
@micra considering the tone nuances made me laugh but I hope you're not anti-semantic
Nice one @Wendoverman.
Now have a lie down!
I always am, dear boy, I always am.
What, wholly horizontal?
So nice to get some intelligent debate here compared to the insult-flinging Facebook page.
Nice one @MindlessDrugHoover.
@MindlessDrugHoover indeedy - it took me rather by surprise too, I blame Stan Collymore.
Slightly side-stepping the racism that is implied by the oversight (which I truly believe culturally there is) I think Sol Campbell isn't the example this cause needs, as he appears to be incredibly arrogant and entitled - wasn't there a faff when he was offended before even having an interview that Grimsby didn't immediately offer him the job?
And Lampard's a slightly poor example too, because every coach he's ever worked with has said how he's ridiculously smart. A mere glimpse at his punditry shows the intelligence he must carry himself with in interviews.
@prufrock_91 agree and his campaign for Tory london mayor puts me off as well....I think Collymore used Campbell as an example (poor as it was) as he was a contemporary of Gerrard and Lampard...and his attacks on Ian Wright, Hughton and Jermaine Jenas were strange...but as you say the issue itself does raise questions for some. Unsettling as it is for others. Lampard is supposed to have a massive IQ and does seem a decent cove though as a Forest fan, I hope he starts his managerial career with an instructive, but miserable failure at Shame Park.
It would be really disappointing if we cant have conversations about serious issues without posters deliberately misrepresenting others and then drawing implications of racism etc. Wendover, I usually enjoy your posts, you are way out of line here, (IMHO of course). If we go down that road, we become just another facebook with puerile "bantz". that would be a shame.
Back to the subject in hand, we seem to have reached a stage of broad agreement. The figures suggest there is (at best) subconscious racism in recruitment of football managers resulting in a underrepresentation of black ex-players. It is however not necessarily racism that stops an individual black ex-player getting a job - that could be because of all sorts of factors - not least that that human being might be a bit of a knob. Sol Campbell appears to fall into the latter category.
I posted an article and you were off on one from almost your first post where you implied I was implying something and then patronisingly explained The Racism to me. Then you introduced Paul Scholes for the old Little Englander trope of equating ginger hair or big ears with race. I know now I should not have risen to your WUM bait, but where did I misrepresent you before you called me a twat?
@micra and usually fast asleep.
you are misrepresenting yet again right there Wendover. At no point have I equated ginger hair with race, That simply isn't true.
From that you imply that I am a racist little Englander. that simply isn't true either.
I have many faults as I am sure you do to. That isn't one of them.
'do you believe Campbell's inability to get a job is primarily down to racism or unsuitability on account of his bellendism?
While you are at it, was Paul Scholes similar failing down to unsuitability or being ginger?'
So that's not equating Campbell not getting a job down to race to Scholes not getting a job down to being ginger? I think you're misrepresenting what I misrepresented which is misrepresentation.