I think this is an excellent and interesting topic to be brought up, thanks @Wendoverman. Over here in the States, the Rooney Rule is regarded as imperfect, but how can it not be? Ultimately, you either let things go the way they have been going, or you find some kind of solution, however imperfect. The difficult side - as someone already stated - is that many minority candidates feel they were just interviewed to "make up the numbers", and sometimes that might be true. But the fact is, there have been a lot of black head coaches and assistants in the NFL in the past decade, and so, to some degree, the intent of the rule seems to have worked.
I can understand black coaches being upset - it is not just the small percentage of hires compared to whites, but compared to foreign coaches too. The latter shows that most clubs don't have a problem with a different nationality, per se (so it is not about just hiring a white Brit), so that must make it all the more pointed for a black coach with ambition.
Ultimately, racism is an inner problem (hearts and minds) like many other problems, and sometimes the best that can be done in an immediate, practical sense in these cases, is to discourage and restrain it by law (or rule, in this case), while in the meantime doing everything possible to win over those hearts and minds, of any colour, who can't see past their own hue. There are also varying degrees of racism, from out and out raw hatred, which can hardly be mistaken, to a kind of bland racial nepotism ("I'll give it to the guy that looks like me") that may almost be subconscious, or even unconscious. The former is going to be a challenge no matter what, but perhaps the latter can be combatted by the right methods, in the case of football management?
In the NFL, some black coaches, helped by the Rooney Rule, have been great, and there have been others who have been bad at their jobs and been fired eventually. Hopefully it would be the same in the football - in other words, it would provide an opportunity to keep or lose a job on merit, rather than not seeing the opportunity in the first place.
@fame_46 said:
Racism hasn’t denied Ince, Moore, Hughton, Curle or Chris Powell a chance. The difference is they’ve been brave enough to start in the lower leagues like 99.9% of white managers do.
That’s 5 people. That’s a crappy statistic no matter which way you want to spin it. Especially vs the number black and ethnic minority players (and ex players) there are out there.
What we don’t know, or at least I haven’t seen, is how many BME applicants there are for managerial and coaching jobs. I would suggest, if it’s possible, to release the information as to who is applying for positions, albeit it perhaps anonymised.
If there are no or a low number of BME applicants then it’s vital to understand why before things are going to change - Do they apply and simply don’t get the chance at an interview (institutional racism in football?), they don’t have the right coaching badges (less opportunities to get coaching as their white counterparts during thenlater part of there playing career) or probably tens if not hundreds of other reasons.
This was why the Rooney Rules exists - to make sure the number of BME applicants proceed through to interview stage and get a decent chance at the job while the number of applicants relatively is low.
It’s a necessary evil (for the want of a better phrase) to fill the gap until the number of BME applications naturally increases.
Two obvious problems with the Rooney rule in practise
1) football managers jobs often are not filled through the advertisement, apply, interview, choose model. Instead club will often only talk to a pre-identified preferred candidate perhaps before the existing manager even knows he is about to be fired. Unclear how Rooney rule applies here
2) while Rooney rule in a conventional recruitment process can ensure a BAME candidate gets an interview, it doesn't ensure he has a decent chance at the job.
If the chairman has already decided he doesn't want a black manager, if forced he will "waste" an hour on a tick box interview, the black candidate will not get the job. What he will have done is spend hours preparing for what he believes is a real opportunity. Anyone who has experienced public sector recruitment when after an extended period, the internal candidate invariably gets the job and the externals were just there for show will know how infuriating this is.
To be honest I don't have a better way. I am not convinced Rooney is the answer either.
The Rooney rule has worked well in the States as far as I know, more than doubling the number of black coaches in the NFL within a couple of years of its introduction.
@fame_46 I suppose you don’t have subjective opinions.
@DevC said:
Two obvious problems with the Rooney rule in practise
1) football managers jobs often are not filled through the advertisement, apply, interview, choose model.
2) while Rooney rule in a conventional recruitment process can ensure a BAME candidate gets an interview, it doesn't ensure he has a decent chance at the job.
If the chairman has already decided he doesn't want a black manager, if forced he will "waste" an hour on a tick box interview, the black candidate will not get the job.
Easy fixes:
make sure clubs have to advertise the position. In fact, i’m Pretty sure they have to whether they have a manager in mind or not.
If there is a chairman like that, they need to be drummed out of football. Why would they not want the bet man for the job? In many cases come interview time, the person you thought you wanted turns out to be very different from the application for and/or previous meetings.
1) I am afraid you are wrong, Mr yak. There is no such requirement. It is not done that way. You have never been a tad suspicious when a manager is sacked and his replacement unveiled two days later?
2) But the very premise on which a requirement for the Rooney rule is predicated is that chairman are racially biased against black candidates. The Rooney rule then assumes that by forcing them to interview a candidate they would not otherwise have chosen, that racial bias miraculously disappears and the interview process is genuine rather than tokenistic. That's some pretty severe mental leaps.
I wish I had a better idea. I don't. I don't think relying on the Rooney rule t solve the problem is likely to be productive.
chris. I fundamentally disagree with you. To assume racism when there is no evidence for it is to my mind a betrayal of those genuinely disadvantaged by racial prejudice.
Campbell is as you say a bit of a deluded character. Scholes is equally unsuited to being a manager. Neither has got a job. They both had similar careers. Yet you assume for one but not the other that racism is to blame. I don't get your logic.
The playing population , from which football managers are generally chosen, is significantly more than 2% black, Fame. I think your logic is disingenuous.
The evidence seems to suggest there is a particular problem in football , yes Fame.
I don't have the actual numbers but I would guess the proportion of professional footballers that are black is around say 25% and has been for an extended period. managers are recruited almost exclusively from that group of people. the number of managers that are black hovers at or often well below 5%. That is highly suggestive that there is a problem. Would you not agree?
You are absolutely right that it is not valid to assume that an individual, Campbell, has been overlooked because of racism just because of what appears to be a general problem. Campbell appears to have been overlooked because his personality is totally unsuited to management. Just like many others, for example Paul Scholes. Assuming racism when evidence suggests other explanations in individual cases simply gives cover for those who want to deny the general problem.
We might not like it but society remains full of bias; undoubtedly less so and less intentionally than in the past, but to think we are past the age of racism is naive and unhelpful.
The evidence is that there is bias against candidates with "ethnic" names and indeed against kids with names associated with lower class areas. A "Georgina" is more like to get an interview than a "Chardonnay".
Most of us would agree that the best person for the job should get the job regardless of skin colour etc. Equality of opportunity is what we aim for. We are not there yet, better than we were agreed, but not there yet.
I am rather concerned at your assumption that black ex players are around five times less likely to get managerial roles than white ex-players is likely to be because white ex-players have the right skills and black ex-players do not. That feels more like the subconscious bias that we need to avoid rather than objectivity.
Interesting debate but let's not exclude ourselves from criticism. When we discuss current / ex players who might one day manage Wycombe the names that most come up are Matt Bloomfield, Paul Hayes, Keith Scott. Why not Nathan Tyson or Yves Ma-Kalambay? I know Bayo has said his future doesn't lie in management but he's set up a successful business, is unsurpassable at self-marketing and has clearly been a hugely influential figure in our dressing room - why aren't we doing more to persuade him down the management route? Steve Brown is, to my mind, the only ethnic minority ex-player who's gone to a successful coaching career elsewhere - should we not talk more about tempting him back? (I also have a vague recollection of someone saying Chuck Mossadick has gone into management). I think it was Chris who mentioned unconscious bias earlier in the thread - as a progressive, fans owned club shouldn't we be setting an example in addressing our unconscious bias when it comes to our future coaching / management team?
This is an anonymous forum, Fame. We can only "judge" people by their statements on here, not by their actions in real life. Like Chris, I was concerned by your post of 9.13 which for someone in HR seemed remarkably unaware of potential for subsconscious racial bias and remarkably casual about assuming that a lack of suitable black candidates is the reason why there are very few black managers.
Aloysius, I agree that from afar Bayo would appear to be an excellent candidate to replace GA when the time comes. NT has only been back for a year, not sure we have enough information to judge from afar whether he has the leadership qualities to be a manger.
Should we deliberately target a black manager, if that was what you are saying. No in my view. That is as much racism as targeting a white manager. The best man for the job is what we need.
I do not have the power to influence how to overcome what appears to be at best some degree of subconscious racism in recruiting football managers Fame. Indeed I have no suggestions how this could be done (I am unpersuaded by the Rooney Rule). Just because I don't know how to solve it and if I did wouldn't have the power to solve it, that doesn't mean I deny that statistics would strongly suggest its reality.
Some quick observations. Football appointments are barely compliant with conventional employment practices, the previous poster has said something similar. Appointments are increasingly made by foreign owners who may have different cultural attitudes/ be more or less racist towards different ethnic groups. And finally what is happening globally? Are the non European nations at the World Cup choosing ex-players or are they sticking with the old methods of picking an overseas coach.
Comments
Not necessarily incorrect, Chris, but no evidence to suggest it's the case either.
In this specific instance, what do you think is the more likely explanation
his skin colour
A) his "dislikable and deluded" character
The fact that there are only a handful of black managers amongst the 92 would suggest there is a problem though surely Fame.
not in Campbell's case I would suggest, but generally.
I think this is an excellent and interesting topic to be brought up, thanks @Wendoverman. Over here in the States, the Rooney Rule is regarded as imperfect, but how can it not be? Ultimately, you either let things go the way they have been going, or you find some kind of solution, however imperfect. The difficult side - as someone already stated - is that many minority candidates feel they were just interviewed to "make up the numbers", and sometimes that might be true. But the fact is, there have been a lot of black head coaches and assistants in the NFL in the past decade, and so, to some degree, the intent of the rule seems to have worked.
I can understand black coaches being upset - it is not just the small percentage of hires compared to whites, but compared to foreign coaches too. The latter shows that most clubs don't have a problem with a different nationality, per se (so it is not about just hiring a white Brit), so that must make it all the more pointed for a black coach with ambition.
Ultimately, racism is an inner problem (hearts and minds) like many other problems, and sometimes the best that can be done in an immediate, practical sense in these cases, is to discourage and restrain it by law (or rule, in this case), while in the meantime doing everything possible to win over those hearts and minds, of any colour, who can't see past their own hue. There are also varying degrees of racism, from out and out raw hatred, which can hardly be mistaken, to a kind of bland racial nepotism ("I'll give it to the guy that looks like me") that may almost be subconscious, or even unconscious. The former is going to be a challenge no matter what, but perhaps the latter can be combatted by the right methods, in the case of football management?
In the NFL, some black coaches, helped by the Rooney Rule, have been great, and there have been others who have been bad at their jobs and been fired eventually. Hopefully it would be the same in the football - in other words, it would provide an opportunity to keep or lose a job on merit, rather than not seeing the opportunity in the first place.
That’s 5 people. That’s a crappy statistic no matter which way you want to spin it. Especially vs the number black and ethnic minority players (and ex players) there are out there.
What we don’t know, or at least I haven’t seen, is how many BME applicants there are for managerial and coaching jobs. I would suggest, if it’s possible, to release the information as to who is applying for positions, albeit it perhaps anonymised.
If there are no or a low number of BME applicants then it’s vital to understand why before things are going to change - Do they apply and simply don’t get the chance at an interview (institutional racism in football?), they don’t have the right coaching badges (less opportunities to get coaching as their white counterparts during thenlater part of there playing career) or probably tens if not hundreds of other reasons.
This was why the Rooney Rules exists - to make sure the number of BME applicants proceed through to interview stage and get a decent chance at the job while the number of applicants relatively is low.
It’s a necessary evil (for the want of a better phrase) to fill the gap until the number of BME applications naturally increases.
Two obvious problems with the Rooney rule in practise
1) football managers jobs often are not filled through the advertisement, apply, interview, choose model. Instead club will often only talk to a pre-identified preferred candidate perhaps before the existing manager even knows he is about to be fired. Unclear how Rooney rule applies here
2) while Rooney rule in a conventional recruitment process can ensure a BAME candidate gets an interview, it doesn't ensure he has a decent chance at the job.
If the chairman has already decided he doesn't want a black manager, if forced he will "waste" an hour on a tick box interview, the black candidate will not get the job. What he will have done is spend hours preparing for what he believes is a real opportunity. Anyone who has experienced public sector recruitment when after an extended period, the internal candidate invariably gets the job and the externals were just there for show will know how infuriating this is.
To be honest I don't have a better way. I am not convinced Rooney is the answer either.
The Rooney rule has worked well in the States as far as I know, more than doubling the number of black coaches in the NFL within a couple of years of its introduction.
@fame_46 I suppose you don’t have subjective opinions.
Mostly likely to be a combination of the two.
Easy fixes:
make sure clubs have to advertise the position. In fact, i’m Pretty sure they have to whether they have a manager in mind or not.
If there is a chairman like that, they need to be drummed out of football. Why would they not want the bet man for the job? In many cases come interview time, the person you thought you wanted turns out to be very different from the application for and/or previous meetings.
1) I am afraid you are wrong, Mr yak. There is no such requirement. It is not done that way. You have never been a tad suspicious when a manager is sacked and his replacement unveiled two days later?
2) But the very premise on which a requirement for the Rooney rule is predicated is that chairman are racially biased against black candidates. The Rooney rule then assumes that by forcing them to interview a candidate they would not otherwise have chosen, that racial bias miraculously disappears and the interview process is genuine rather than tokenistic. That's some pretty severe mental leaps.
I wish I had a better idea. I don't. I don't think relying on the Rooney rule t solve the problem is likely to be productive.
chris. I fundamentally disagree with you. To assume racism when there is no evidence for it is to my mind a betrayal of those genuinely disadvantaged by racial prejudice.
Campbell is as you say a bit of a deluded character. Scholes is equally unsuited to being a manager. Neither has got a job. They both had similar careers. Yet you assume for one but not the other that racism is to blame. I don't get your logic.
The playing population , from which football managers are generally chosen, is significantly more than 2% black, Fame. I think your logic is disingenuous.
The evidence seems to suggest there is a particular problem in football , yes Fame.
I don't have the actual numbers but I would guess the proportion of professional footballers that are black is around say 25% and has been for an extended period. managers are recruited almost exclusively from that group of people. the number of managers that are black hovers at or often well below 5%. That is highly suggestive that there is a problem. Would you not agree?
You are absolutely right that it is not valid to assume that an individual, Campbell, has been overlooked because of racism just because of what appears to be a general problem. Campbell appears to have been overlooked because his personality is totally unsuited to management. Just like many others, for example Paul Scholes. Assuming racism when evidence suggests other explanations in individual cases simply gives cover for those who want to deny the general problem.
It’s a known fact that job applications from candidates that have traditionally ‘white’ names are more successful than those that do not, given the rest of the application is identical.
https://fullfact.org/economy/job-applicants-ethnic-minority-sounding-names-are-less-likely-be-called-interview/
We might not like it but society remains full of bias; undoubtedly less so and less intentionally than in the past, but to think we are past the age of racism is naive and unhelpful.
It worries me that there are people who work in HR who don’t understand the basics of unconscious bias and think everything is meritocratic now.
I have to say I agree with Chris here, Fame.
The evidence is that there is bias against candidates with "ethnic" names and indeed against kids with names associated with lower class areas. A "Georgina" is more like to get an interview than a "Chardonnay".
Most of us would agree that the best person for the job should get the job regardless of skin colour etc. Equality of opportunity is what we aim for. We are not there yet, better than we were agreed, but not there yet.
I am rather concerned at your assumption that black ex players are around five times less likely to get managerial roles than white ex-players is likely to be because white ex-players have the right skills and black ex-players do not. That feels more like the subconscious bias that we need to avoid rather than objectivity.
Interesting debate but let's not exclude ourselves from criticism. When we discuss current / ex players who might one day manage Wycombe the names that most come up are Matt Bloomfield, Paul Hayes, Keith Scott. Why not Nathan Tyson or Yves Ma-Kalambay? I know Bayo has said his future doesn't lie in management but he's set up a successful business, is unsurpassable at self-marketing and has clearly been a hugely influential figure in our dressing room - why aren't we doing more to persuade him down the management route? Steve Brown is, to my mind, the only ethnic minority ex-player who's gone to a successful coaching career elsewhere - should we not talk more about tempting him back? (I also have a vague recollection of someone saying Chuck Mossadick has gone into management). I think it was Chris who mentioned unconscious bias earlier in the thread - as a progressive, fans owned club shouldn't we be setting an example in addressing our unconscious bias when it comes to our future coaching / management team?
This is an anonymous forum, Fame. We can only "judge" people by their statements on here, not by their actions in real life. Like Chris, I was concerned by your post of 9.13 which for someone in HR seemed remarkably unaware of potential for subsconscious racial bias and remarkably casual about assuming that a lack of suitable black candidates is the reason why there are very few black managers.
Perhaps your post was badly worded. it happens.
It remains a fact that I’m concerned.
It’s even more concerning that a $3 billion US business doesn’t offer unconscious bias training to its HR employees.
Aloysius, I agree that from afar Bayo would appear to be an excellent candidate to replace GA when the time comes. NT has only been back for a year, not sure we have enough information to judge from afar whether he has the leadership qualities to be a manger.
Should we deliberately target a black manager, if that was what you are saying. No in my view. That is as much racism as targeting a white manager. The best man for the job is what we need.
I do not have the power to influence how to overcome what appears to be at best some degree of subconscious racism in recruiting football managers Fame. Indeed I have no suggestions how this could be done (I am unpersuaded by the Rooney Rule). Just because I don't know how to solve it and if I did wouldn't have the power to solve it, that doesn't mean I deny that statistics would strongly suggest its reality.
Fixed. Sorry it wasn't quite in time for this thread.
Some quick observations. Football appointments are barely compliant with conventional employment practices, the previous poster has said something similar. Appointments are increasingly made by foreign owners who may have different cultural attitudes/ be more or less racist towards different ethnic groups. And finally what is happening globally? Are the non European nations at the World Cup choosing ex-players or are they sticking with the old methods of picking an overseas coach.
@Wendoverman I missed a word out, I was using Chris Houghton as an example of a manager being treated poorly. I'm in agreement with you there
Could you explain why you think Chris Houghton has been treated poorly (compared to other managers). Not sure I understand.