Would you budget for and spend now revenues from increased home attendances,Micra?
The aftermath of Wembley would suggest not. Does the attractiveness of "bigger opposition" for home supporters outweigh the negatives for home supporters of likely worse results than in the last few seasons
.
We may sell s player but to be honest none likely to raise the money that others have In recent seasons. Windfalls from sell-ons also look disappointing - the likes of Hause, Ingram and Harris had disappointing seasons.
After a run of good cup revenues, no guarentee we won't lose in Rd1 this season.
Yes likelihood of some higher away fan revenues.
Fan money raising schemes have lost their initial novelty.
Based on that lot, hard to see obvious room for budgeting increased revenues or therefore allowing manager to spend more over the summer.
Presumably there is s little bit more gruel from our Premier masters that gets doled out in League 1 than 2 so I would expect we could factor that in to our budget.
It will still be near the bottom though so we can expect a thankful return of the ‘little club’ refrain that seems to have been used sparingly this season.
Far too many variables for any significant changes so we’re relying on GA (hopefully) to get the best out of the players we have.
The loans he gets in I think will be vital. The positive thing is that I should imagine he/we now have a good name for developing players that could make us an attractive choice for south east based fringe players.
@DevC said:
Would you budget for and spend now revenues from increased home attendances,Micra?
The aftermath of Wembley would suggest not. Does the attractiveness of "bigger opposition" for home supporters outweigh the negatives for home supporters of likely worse results than in the last few seasons
.
We may sell s player but to be honest none likely to raise the money that others have In recent seasons. Windfalls from sell-ons also look disappointing - the likes of Hause, Ingram and Harris had disappointing seasons.
After a run of good cup revenues, no guarentee we won't lose in Rd1 this season.
Yes likelihood of some higher away fan revenues.
Fan money raising schemes have lost their initial novelty.
Based on that lot, hard to see obvious room for budgeting increased revenues or therefore allowing manager to spend more over the summer.
I think that’s a rather pessimistic assessment. Accrington said that promotion was worth around half a million pounds despite their average crowds being substantially lower than ours. Just adding circa 500 people to our home attendances would be a considerable boost to the club’s income.
Note to Trevor: My home gate income assumption was based on 10% of the non-regulars - ie 500 - not the 1000 you assumed.
Everything depends on GA being here next season, Dev. Absolutely vital.
On timing of expenditure, the big additions accruing from large away followings will tend to be spread across the season and presumably would go towards players’ wages and other ongoing costs. Income accessible within the next month or so will be from the proceeds of season ticket sales - realistically around £300,000 - £500,000. There is an option for people to spread payments over 10 months.
Because it seems likely that we will be getting any additional players on loan or as free transfers, there should be no requirement to spend money on players now (if that’s what you had in mind in your opening paragraph) other than ongoing wages.
No, I definitely don’t think the “negative effect”, as you instinctively and characteristically call it, of a few disappointing results against some of the bigger clubs would outweigh the very substantial income that 1800 away fans would bring.
I just hope that most on here are less downbeat than you, Dev.
@micra said:
Note to Trevor: My home gate income assumption was based on 10% of the non-regulars - ie 500 - not the 1000 you assumed.
Everything depends on GA being here next season, Dev. Absolutely vital.
On timing of expenditure, the big additions accruing from large away followings will tend to be spread across the season and presumably would go towards players’ wages and other ongoing costs. Income accessible within the next month or so will be from the proceeds of season ticket sales - realistically around £300,000 - £500,000. There is an option for people to spread payments over 10 months.
Because it seems likely that we will be getting any additional players on loan or as free transfers, there should be no requirement to spend money on players now (if that’s what you had in mind in your opening paragraph) other than ongoing wages.
No, I definitely don’t think the “negative effect”, as you instinctively and characteristically call it, of a few disappointing results against some of the bigger clubs would outweigh the very substantial income that 1800 away fans would bring.
I just hope that most on here are less downbeat than you, Dev.
Yes i mean freyeartansfer wages etc not like we will ever again afford to buy a player from another club with our tight budget every year.
Football must be very hard to budget as a very large percentage of expenditure must be fixed by August (players wages on contracts to at least the following July). The revenues are only known with any certainty much later. With our model where there is no backstop in extremis from a backer.
I agree with you we could budget and spend assumed extra revenues from away supporters. Club should have the data to have a reasonable stab at calculating this. My fagpacket says around £200k less policing/stewarding costs.
Home supporters are harder to estimate. Web suggest in total we averaged 4600 last season. Club will know how many were away supporters but let's say 4300 were home ones. Will the excitement of promotion increase that by 500, will bigger names attract more casual home supporters or will likely worse results cause some to drift away as the season goes on?
If you were setting the playing budget now, assuming club knows that average home support at home games was 4300 last year, what figure would you budget for next season with sufficient confidence that you were prepared to commit to spending money earned in advance?
Similarly what figure would you commit to spending now based on assumed cup revenues, transfer fees, sellons etc?
I can't find up to date 'official' figures but, if the info on this year old link is accurate, we will get at least an extra £400k for Basic and Solidarity payments next season.
Club will know tv money and can safely budget to spend that.
Question remains. When setting the playing budget for GA (hopefully) to spend In the summer, do you factor into your calculations any change in home supporters supporting WWFC? Do you factor in hoped for cup and/or transfer revenue?
@Doob said:
Is our average home attendance likely to increase due to more away fans? We keep Luton, gain Oxford, Portsmouth, Sunderland, maybe others?
The answer to your question is a resounding yes. We swap Newport, Crawley, Crewe, Stevenage, Forest Green, Morecambe and Yeovil for Plymouth, Peterborough, Southend, Bradford, Bristol Rovers, Gillingham and perhaps Charlton. Add to that additional home support and I would expect our average crowds to be comfortably north of 5,000.
Everyone would agree that revenue from away supporters at AP will be up.
Are you confident enough that home supporters at AP will be up to allow GA to sign that new CF in July on wages to be paid for by extra HOME supporting attendees?
If only we had stayed in league two we would not have to spend hours worrying about figures we have no idea about. Exeter should think themselves lucky. I think we'll have less money, fewer fans and no players...the games (which we will lose) will all be appalling. And yet again I have failed to do my maths and let heart rule the head before buying a season ticket! Damn and double damn!!
Early season ticket sales will give an indication of the potential for increased support and I also believe that we’ll attract a lot more ‘casual’ support for the bigger games. In addition there’s the guarantee of increased payments from the FL and since the core of the current squad were signed up before promotion was sealed, I wouldn’t expect too much transfer activity anyway.
I do hope you’re having a lovely relaxing afternoon. All I attempt to do is to get a broad brush feel for how much the finances are likely to be improved in the coming season. I am not in the least interested in the complexities with which you try to bamboozle us. I’m sure you have the advantage of a background in business and legal matters and that
what you say would be very relevant if you were directly involved in the management of a football club but I am innocent abroad in such matters and have zilch interest in anything other than the viability and future success of a football club that I have loved and supported for half a century.
Incidentally, not even sure we need this mythical new CF that Dev refers to. Given freedom from injuries we have Akinfenwa, Tyson, CMS and Kashket, all of whom can play as a central striker.
@DevC I know much less tjan you about football or finance I'm sure but I would be very surprised if exeter having missed out on automatic and losing their manager at the end of the season will have enough to beat amy of the other three strong teams left in the running myself. But again that is my heart rather than a detailed analysis of the situation.
I'd say statistically speaking, they have about a 1 in 4 chance.
As far as I know not confirmed that 'tisdale is leaving but strong speculation that he might be swapping Devon's fields of grazing cattle for concrete ones.
I see you’re still there stirring. All I’ve stirred is a cup of tea. Not sure what question I’d failed to answer. Probably one to which the answer was not what you wanted or expected to hear. If it’s the one about being able to afford this mythical CF (? Crowd Funder) I have a problem which is probably, but not definitely, why I didn’t answer it. I’m not sure what sort of salary the sort of player/fund raiser you have in mind might command but I can make an educated guess at the increase in “HOME supporting attendees “ (which I’m making a wild assumption is the same as “home supporters”) I can see average home gates increasing by around 500. This number would bring in an extra £10,000 a fortnight (periodically £10,000 a week) - say a quarter of a million pounds sterling, rounded to the nearest £20,000, taking into account programme sales, food and drink if they ever got to the head of the queue before the final whistle. Depending on how much you think we should pay for a centre forward or crowd funder, that sort of money might do the trick.
I expect we might get one or two of our home matches on TV now that we’re up with the big boys. That’s it. First game of the season. Home to Sunderland, full house and on TV.
The question was
Are you confident enough to commit to spend in players wages the extra £250k you believe you might earn from increased wycombe supporting Adams park attendees before you see them materialise?
I’m sure Micra can speak for himself once he’s finished gardening but if you read Steve Peart’s post re Plymouth you will see that increased FL payments for being in the higher division are guaranteed and could therefore be ring fenced without the need to speculate about a possible increase in attendances.
Comments
Would you budget for and spend now revenues from increased home attendances,Micra?
The aftermath of Wembley would suggest not. Does the attractiveness of "bigger opposition" for home supporters outweigh the negatives for home supporters of likely worse results than in the last few seasons
.
We may sell s player but to be honest none likely to raise the money that others have In recent seasons. Windfalls from sell-ons also look disappointing - the likes of Hause, Ingram and Harris had disappointing seasons.
After a run of good cup revenues, no guarentee we won't lose in Rd1 this season.
Yes likelihood of some higher away fan revenues.
Fan money raising schemes have lost their initial novelty.
Based on that lot, hard to see obvious room for budgeting increased revenues or therefore allowing manager to spend more over the summer.
Presumably there is s little bit more gruel from our Premier masters that gets doled out in League 1 than 2 so I would expect we could factor that in to our budget.
It will still be near the bottom though so we can expect a thankful return of the ‘little club’ refrain that seems to have been used sparingly this season.
Far too many variables for any significant changes so we’re relying on GA (hopefully) to get the best out of the players we have.
The loans he gets in I think will be vital. The positive thing is that I should imagine he/we now have a good name for developing players that could make us an attractive choice for south east based fringe players.
Not sure "near the bottom" quite does reality justice.
But I agree with you re loans and would add that GA reputation for treating players as adults may attract more "oldies".
Both do rather rely on GA being here next
Season.
Yes. I think if he goes all bets are off
I think that’s a rather pessimistic assessment. Accrington said that promotion was worth around half a million pounds despite their average crowds being substantially lower than ours. Just adding circa 500 people to our home attendances would be a considerable boost to the club’s income.
Surely our wage budget will be higher for league one?
Note to Trevor: My home gate income assumption was based on 10% of the non-regulars - ie 500 - not the 1000 you assumed.
Everything depends on GA being here next season, Dev. Absolutely vital.
On timing of expenditure, the big additions accruing from large away followings will tend to be spread across the season and presumably would go towards players’ wages and other ongoing costs. Income accessible within the next month or so will be from the proceeds of season ticket sales - realistically around £300,000 - £500,000. There is an option for people to spread payments over 10 months.
Because it seems likely that we will be getting any additional players on loan or as free transfers, there should be no requirement to spend money on players now (if that’s what you had in mind in your opening paragraph) other than ongoing wages.
No, I definitely don’t think the “negative effect”, as you instinctively and characteristically call it, of a few disappointing results against some of the bigger clubs would outweigh the very substantial income that 1800 away fans would bring.
I just hope that most on here are less downbeat than you, Dev.
Yes i mean freyeartansfer wages etc not like we will ever again afford to buy a player from another club with our tight budget every year.
You’ve raised my flagging spirits, Trevor.
You missed my point, Micra.
Football must be very hard to budget as a very large percentage of expenditure must be fixed by August (players wages on contracts to at least the following July). The revenues are only known with any certainty much later. With our model where there is no backstop in extremis from a backer.
I agree with you we could budget and spend assumed extra revenues from away supporters. Club should have the data to have a reasonable stab at calculating this. My fagpacket says around £200k less policing/stewarding costs.
Home supporters are harder to estimate. Web suggest in total we averaged 4600 last season. Club will know how many were away supporters but let's say 4300 were home ones. Will the excitement of promotion increase that by 500, will bigger names attract more casual home supporters or will likely worse results cause some to drift away as the season goes on?
If you were setting the playing budget now, assuming club knows that average home support at home games was 4300 last year, what figure would you budget for next season with sufficient confidence that you were prepared to commit to spending money earned in advance?
Similarly what figure would you commit to spending now based on assumed cup revenues, transfer fees, sellons etc?
Is our average home attendance likely to increase due to more away fans? We keep Luton, gain Oxford, Portsmouth, Sunderland, maybe others?
I can't find up to date 'official' figures but, if the info on this year old link is accurate, we will get at least an extra £400k for Basic and Solidarity payments next season.
https://plymouth.vitalfootball.co.uk/how-much-prize-money-for-winning-l2/
Well that would be a nice start.
Club will know tv money and can safely budget to spend that.
Question remains. When setting the playing budget for GA (hopefully) to spend In the summer, do you factor into your calculations any change in home supporters supporting WWFC? Do you factor in hoped for cup and/or transfer revenue?
The answer to your question is a resounding yes. We swap Newport, Crawley, Crewe, Stevenage, Forest Green, Morecambe and Yeovil for Plymouth, Peterborough, Southend, Bradford, Bristol Rovers, Gillingham and perhaps Charlton. Add to that additional home support and I would expect our average crowds to be comfortably north of 5,000.
Everyone would agree that revenue from away supporters at AP will be up.
Are you confident enough that home supporters at AP will be up to allow GA to sign that new CF in July on wages to be paid for by extra HOME supporting attendees?
If only we had stayed in league two we would not have to spend hours worrying about figures we have no idea about. Exeter should think themselves lucky. I think we'll have less money, fewer fans and no players...the games (which we will lose) will all be appalling. And yet again I have failed to do my maths and let heart rule the head before buying a season ticket! Damn and double damn!!
Early season ticket sales will give an indication of the potential for increased support and I also believe that we’ll attract a lot more ‘casual’ support for the bigger games. In addition there’s the guarantee of increased payments from the FL and since the core of the current squad were signed up before promotion was sealed, I wouldn’t expect too much transfer activity anyway.
Exeter may well be joining us in lg1
I do hope you’re having a lovely relaxing afternoon. All I attempt to do is to get a broad brush feel for how much the finances are likely to be improved in the coming season. I am not in the least interested in the complexities with which you try to bamboozle us. I’m sure you have the advantage of a background in business and legal matters and that
what you say would be very relevant if you were directly involved in the management of a football club but I am innocent abroad in such matters and have zilch interest in anything other than the viability and future success of a football club that I have loved and supported for half a century.
Off to mow lawns now.
How many lawns do you have? Perhaps sell one off for building and use the proceeds to fund the new CF.
I notice you avoided the question.
Incidentally, not even sure we need this mythical new CF that Dev refers to. Given freedom from injuries we have Akinfenwa, Tyson, CMS and Kashket, all of whom can play as a central striker.
And Paris if he's still here.
@DevC I know much less tjan you about football or finance I'm sure but I would be very surprised if exeter having missed out on automatic and losing their manager at the end of the season will have enough to beat amy of the other three strong teams left in the running myself. But again that is my heart rather than a detailed analysis of the situation.
I'd say statistically speaking, they have about a 1 in 4 chance.
As far as I know not confirmed that 'tisdale is leaving but strong speculation that he might be swapping Devon's fields of grazing cattle for concrete ones.
I see you’re still there stirring. All I’ve stirred is a cup of tea. Not sure what question I’d failed to answer. Probably one to which the answer was not what you wanted or expected to hear. If it’s the one about being able to afford this mythical CF (? Crowd Funder) I have a problem which is probably, but not definitely, why I didn’t answer it. I’m not sure what sort of salary the sort of player/fund raiser you have in mind might command but I can make an educated guess at the increase in “HOME supporting attendees “ (which I’m making a wild assumption is the same as “home supporters”) I can see average home gates increasing by around 500. This number would bring in an extra £10,000 a fortnight (periodically £10,000 a week) - say a quarter of a million pounds sterling, rounded to the nearest £20,000, taking into account programme sales, food and drink if they ever got to the head of the queue before the final whistle. Depending on how much you think we should pay for a centre forward or crowd funder, that sort of money might do the trick.
I expect we might get one or two of our home matches on TV now that we’re up with the big boys. That’s it. First game of the season. Home to Sunderland, full house and on TV.
Ah well, back to the lawns. One down, two to go.
I converted one of my lawns to the helicopter pad to save the mowing;-)
You must have been the one man who went to mow a meadow @ValleyWanderer .
The question was
Are you confident enough to commit to spend in players wages the extra £250k you believe you might earn from increased wycombe supporting Adams park attendees before you see them materialise?
I’m sure Micra can speak for himself once he’s finished gardening but if you read Steve Peart’s post re Plymouth you will see that increased FL payments for being in the higher division are guaranteed and could therefore be ring fenced without the need to speculate about a possible increase in attendances.