@WanderingDays Having seen WDH play a few times recently including Saturday I think you are being very economical with the truth and if I'm totally honest I think you are making alot of things up. The Cheltenham centre forward was a decent player at our level and caused both our centre halves problems. WDH wasn't 'skinned' three or four times and didn't lose 'an awful lot of headers'. The Cheltenham strikers were pacy and trying to beat them from a standing start was tough and he was out of position a couple of times trying this. I think he'd be looking for a bit more support from the midfield in those situations. You just see the single player.
He was by no means perfect and had a pretty poor game on Saturday. I just don't see him being as awful as you seem to have to make out to make some sort of point. I can see faults in his game like everyone else can. Your destruction of his game is nasty, pointless and ultimately just plain wrong.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
WanderingDays Having seen WDH play a few times recently including Saturday I think you are being very economical with the truth and if I'm totally honest I think you are making alot of things up. The Cheltenham centre forward was a decent player at our level and caused both our centre halves problems. WDH wasn't 'skinned' three or four times and didn't lose 'an awful lot of headers'. The Cheltenham strikers were pacy and trying to beat them from a standing start was tough and he was out of position a couple of times trying this. I think he'd be looking for a bit more support from the midfield in those situations. You just see the single player.
He was by no means perfect and had a pretty poor game on Saturday. I just don't see him being as awful as you seem to have to make out to make some sort of point. I can see faults in his game like everyone else can. Your destruction of his game is nasty, pointless and ultimately just plain wrong.
How are my observations of his game "nasty"? I'm simply saying what I have observed over the last few weeks. Again, I have never said anything personal against him or his attitude, I just don't think he is good enough and was trying to explain why.
Also, I have watched the whole team, and I know that other players have been very poor too recently. Harriman, Jacobson, Hayes, and Gape spring to mind. However, I don't think that they have been as poor, and they have all shown in the past this season that they are fantastic players on their day. WDH hasn't. For me, he is clearly the weakest link in the XI. I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't think I will be. Nothing nasty in it at all.
WDH did have a poor game on Saturday. But it should be borne in mind that this lad is only twenty two years old and is playing in a tough position, where players tend to mature towards their late twenties, in a very tough league indeed. He has yet to receive the level of nurturing that another young prospect (Danny Rowe) has been afforded and has, by virtue of necessity, been pitched into the team when he is clearly not quite ready. We need to understand this before passing judgement on him. Under the circumstances it is probably greatly to his credit that he is able to make any sort of a fist of it at all. It should not be forgotten that in among all this he has given one or two very creditable performances as well (Crewe away, second half, springs to mind).
Given time, and a bit of patient and understanding coaching/guidance in life, he may well come good and turn into a decent prospect for our club. I hope so.
On Saturday WDH was poor but we didn't concede three goals solely because of his performance. He didn't give away the needless penalty, and to be honest he didn't get a lot of support from Pierre. Even allowing for his deficiencies, I think he is currently a better bet than Muller who tries to pass the ball more but is too slow and ponderous to do it effectively.
I suppose that, if the management team didn't inevitably still have an eye on the need to develop at least one young centre back in preparation for next season, we would have been more likely to have seen Sido in that position. He has always performed well when called upon to play there.
Anyone who saw Will's performance against Pompey in January (albeit as a sub for 30-40 minutes) would disagree that he's not up to playing at this level. We were under sustained pressure from one of the top teams in this league and he was outstanding. Maybe, just maybe, a young lad in his first season playing first team football, needs to build his confidence. Hard to do if people are on your back as soon as you make a mistake.
Let's be honest, half the team aren't firing on all cylinders at the moment.
Will's performance did not stand out to me as being any poorer than any of the starting eleven on Saturday to be fair. The midfield was non-existent and only Freeman, Woody and Thompson offered any threat. Cheltenham pressed very well, so hoofing the ball out of danger was inevitable. Perhaps as the newer cog in the machine, he looked more off the pace when our 'experienced' players decided to have a 'mare.
I'm not one to get on the back of players unnecessarily, but there's a difference between a drop in form (Gape atm, Blackman post spurs) where you can clearly see light at the end of the tunnel, and a player who I just don't think is up to it/ has never shown me anything to suggest he will be anytime soon.
It's twice as frustrating when you've got Sido on the bench, Muller not in the squad and Rowe out on loan.
WDH looks more likely to succeed at this level than Muller to me. He was very, very impressive at Crewe away.
Both are clearly a step down in quality from Pierre and Stewart, and I'm not yet convinced that either is ready to be one of our first choice centre backs next season.
@MindlessDrugHoover said:
And yet Muller has had a couple of mares (notably Exeter away). Shouldn't we be getting on his back too, if only for consistency's sake?
I agree Muller looks like he has a mistake in him atm, but it's much easier for someone to learn when to "get rid", when they've got a good touch and can pick a pass than it is to go from aimless hoofing to ball-playing.
Muller has also been noticeably better in the air and much less of a red card candidate than WDH whenever I've watched as well
@Username said:
If you had a bad day at every day you'd quickly lose your job, or at least get put on more menial duties.
Nonsense. Aside from the fact that I own the company, everyone has a bad day at work every now and then, it happens. Staff can't grow and learn without making mistakes so if your boss puts you on more menial duties when you have a bad day then he's a shit boss. Imagine if you had 4500 people shouting abuse at you for the way you hook the wheelie bin on to the back of the truck.
@WanderingDays It's nasty when you make accusations without any real substance or fact. Your initial post claimed all sorts of random acts of poor play that I hadn't witnessed despite watching the same game. I think you wanted to exagerate how bad you think WDH is as a player and that is nasty in my opinion.
I think we both agree he wasn't that good on Saturday but to go to the lengths you went to in your critisism is poor in the extreme. I suppose you'll either say you have a right to critisise or it's just 'banter' but I think as a supporter you are bang out of order.
@drcongo said:
Nonsense. Aside from the fact that I own the company, everyone has a bad day at work every now and then, it happens. Staff can't grow and learn without making mistakes so if your boss puts you on more menial duties when you have a bad day then he's a shit boss. Imagine if you had 4500 people shouting abuse at you for the way you hook the wheelie bin on to the back of the truck.
If it was a one off that argument might hold water.
If I turned up for work everyday and was decent enough day to day (training) , but when it mattered, ie presenting to bosses/ clients (match day), I then consistently couldn't hack it, to the detriment of the company, I'd soon get my job role changed, or at least get sent off for training. He needs to go out on loan and learn the trade/ prove he's good enough.
@bookertease said:
Oh. It's all WDH's* fault. If it wasn't for him we'd be in the automatic places by now and probably planning our trip to Wembley for the semi-finals
*Or is it Blackman/Sido/Luke/Woody/Thompson or whoever it is who is the target of some of our less-reflective fan base this week
I don't know what it is a minority seem to want an individual, a name, to pin their frustrations on.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
WanderingDays It's nasty when you make accusations without any real substance or fact. Your initial post claimed all sorts of random acts of poor play that I hadn't witnessed despite watching the same game. I think you wanted to exagerate how bad you think WDH is as a player and that is nasty in my opinion.
I think we both agree he wasn't that good on Saturday but to go to the lengths you went to in your critisism is poor in the extreme. I suppose you'll either say you have a right to critisise or it's just 'banter' but I think as a supporter you are bang out of order.
I didn't exaggerate. He was comfortably beaten or out of position multiple times throughout the game, and that contributed to 2 of their goals. It wasn't "banter" at all. What makes you think that your perceived version of events is somehow more valid than mine simply because you've taken a more positive outlook?
Also, I have never strongly criticised a player like this on here before (admittedly I haven't posted often), or on the Facebook page. It isn't something I'd do at all without good reason. In fact, I think most of the criticism on here of Thompson, Hayes, Gape, O'Nien, Sido and particularly Blackman has been way over the top this season. Just not so for WDH.
With the criticism of WDH and recently Muller and Southwell too, I know others have said it already, but it's worth repeating that these are all young players in their first season at the club. WDH is playing his first pro football and his appearances have been sporadic. Max has made just ten starts this season after a long injury layoff and is adapting to life in a new country and arguably a new style of football. This is Southwell's first season as pro too and he is another who has had first team opportunities limited by injury.
Obviously Muller and WDH are going to look a bit ropey next to Pierre and Stewart, but they're one of the best centre-back pairings in the division and we have rather been spoilt of late in that position with the likes of Mawson and McCarthy.
How many Wycombe players have had slow starts to life at Adams Park and gone on to be good or even great players for us? Brownie, Simmo, Paul McCarthy just to name a few off the top of my head. People writing Southwell off after 13 starts in a Wycombe shirt should perhaps think back to how Jermaine Easter had a slow start here, or how Stuart Beavon took over two seasons to get going in front of goal.
These guys may not be ready to be first team regulars just yet, but given the chance to learn and develop without being pounded for every mistake or bad performance, they could well reach that level in the near future. Fair criticism where it's due - getting on a player's back when they're having a bad game is one thing, but repeatedly targeting a player for abuse, including directly on social media is classless behaviour and I can't imagine in what way the people dishing out this venom think it's going to have anything other than a negative impact on the player and therefore the club.
But @Jonny_King if we are not losing and not yet definitely out of the play-offs some Gasroom posters have no outlet for their anger glands if we don't single somebody out.
but WDH has shown promise in several games as quite a few on here have pointed out. Agree with the comment about his performance against Portsmouth, he was outstanding when coming on early in that game. So to say he hasn't shown any promise is just plain incorrect.
@Wycombe85 said:
but WDH has shown promise in several games as quite a few on here have pointed out. Agree with the comment about his performance against Portsmouth, he was outstanding when coming on early in that game. So to say he hasn't shown any promise is just plain incorrect.
Admittedly I wasn't at Portsmouth, but I've been to pretty much every game in last 5/6 weeks.
There's a difference between making mistakes and just generally doing things badly.
Mistakes were what what Blackman was making, which often turned a decent performance into a poor one in one moment (but different for a keeper i know), you knew he could do better/ his form and luck would turn, was just a matter of time. The difference for me isn't that he's generally doing well with the odd slip up (Which is the category I have Muller in), it's that his general positioning, anticipation, physicality, decision making and most obviously distribution are all under par.
I'm surprised everyone's going on about WDH's distribution, it shouldn't his job make killer precision passes, the midfield should be coming short to pick up ye ball but if we do insist on hoofing it surely jj or Harriman should be playing those balls not the Cb's. I do agree defensively he looks concerning but if he's not ready he shouldn't play, when we've got sido on the bench who has years experience in this league I put the blame with ainsworth as he picks the team, as for beast and o'nien not playing because they were late I find that rediculous we can't afford to have our best players on the bench at this time in the season if we have any playoff aspirations.
Football is a young man's game. 22/23 can be 1/3 of the way through your career, so you pretty much have to be showing a fair amount at that age, especially at the level you're currently playing at.
Unfortunately for WDH, we've been absolutely blessed with centre backs in recent seasons, so he has a very hard comparison.
Pierre and Stewart are as good as anyone in this league, whilst I'm afraid Muller and Will are pure squad fill. Can either of them step up and improve? I don't know. I can't remember the last situation where a similar player came through and became a regular.
People will mention Brownie, but that was almost 25 years ago, and a different circumstance.
Interesting that @WanderingDays is not responding to well to my criticism of his views which I think are extremely harsh on a young player. Worth remembering when dishing out the abuse.
Amazing how many experts in the skills of a lower league centre back there are all of a sudden.
Probably a little bit over the top looking back on my remarks.....id been in the pub garden all day in that blistering sun......wdh like others on Saturday wernt really up to it............apologies for the vermin tone
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
Interesting that WanderingDays is not responding to well to my criticism of his views which I think are extremely harsh on a young player. Worth remembering when dishing out the abuse.
Amazing how many experts in the skills of a lower league centre back there are all of a sudden.
How am I not responding well to criticism? I've given calm, reasoned, and measured responses to all of your arguments. No malice or insult in my answers at all.
However, it is a bit hypocritical of you to say that I'm acting like an "expert in the skills of a lower league centre back", when you are seemingly trying to act exactly the same, but from a different perspective. I haven't got personal at all during this debate, but you have just done so by inferring that.
@Username said:
If I turned up for work everyday and was decent enough day to day (training) , but when it mattered, ie presenting to bosses/ clients (match day), I then consistently couldn't hack it, to the detriment of the company, I'd soon get my job role changed, or at least get sent off for training. He needs to go out on loan and learn the trade/ prove he's good enough.
Most people with a decent employer would get a reasonable probation period in a new job. This lad's barely had a run of games and is being dismissed. What's worse is that people actively seek him out online to get stuck in. What sort of arse would do that?
I shudder to think what would've become of Steve Brown in the age of online know-alls.
Comments
@WanderingDays Having seen WDH play a few times recently including Saturday I think you are being very economical with the truth and if I'm totally honest I think you are making alot of things up. The Cheltenham centre forward was a decent player at our level and caused both our centre halves problems. WDH wasn't 'skinned' three or four times and didn't lose 'an awful lot of headers'. The Cheltenham strikers were pacy and trying to beat them from a standing start was tough and he was out of position a couple of times trying this. I think he'd be looking for a bit more support from the midfield in those situations. You just see the single player.
He was by no means perfect and had a pretty poor game on Saturday. I just don't see him being as awful as you seem to have to make out to make some sort of point. I can see faults in his game like everyone else can. Your destruction of his game is nasty, pointless and ultimately just plain wrong.
Oh. It's all WDH's* fault. If it wasn't for him we'd be in the automatic places by now and probably planning our trip to Wembley for the semi-finals
*Or is it Blackman/Sido/Luke/Woody/Thompson or whoever it is who is the target of some of our less-reflective fan base this week
How are my observations of his game "nasty"? I'm simply saying what I have observed over the last few weeks. Again, I have never said anything personal against him or his attitude, I just don't think he is good enough and was trying to explain why.
Also, I have watched the whole team, and I know that other players have been very poor too recently. Harriman, Jacobson, Hayes, and Gape spring to mind. However, I don't think that they have been as poor, and they have all shown in the past this season that they are fantastic players on their day. WDH hasn't. For me, he is clearly the weakest link in the XI. I would love to be proven wrong, but I don't think I will be. Nothing nasty in it at all.
WDH did have a poor game on Saturday. But it should be borne in mind that this lad is only twenty two years old and is playing in a tough position, where players tend to mature towards their late twenties, in a very tough league indeed. He has yet to receive the level of nurturing that another young prospect (Danny Rowe) has been afforded and has, by virtue of necessity, been pitched into the team when he is clearly not quite ready. We need to understand this before passing judgement on him. Under the circumstances it is probably greatly to his credit that he is able to make any sort of a fist of it at all. It should not be forgotten that in among all this he has given one or two very creditable performances as well (Crewe away, second half, springs to mind).
Given time, and a bit of patient and understanding coaching/guidance in life, he may well come good and turn into a decent prospect for our club. I hope so.
On Saturday WDH was poor but we didn't concede three goals solely because of his performance. He didn't give away the needless penalty, and to be honest he didn't get a lot of support from Pierre. Even allowing for his deficiencies, I think he is currently a better bet than Muller who tries to pass the ball more but is too slow and ponderous to do it effectively.
I suppose that, if the management team didn't inevitably still have an eye on the need to develop at least one young centre back in preparation for next season, we would have been more likely to have seen Sido in that position. He has always performed well when called upon to play there.
Anyone who saw Will's performance against Pompey in January (albeit as a sub for 30-40 minutes) would disagree that he's not up to playing at this level. We were under sustained pressure from one of the top teams in this league and he was outstanding. Maybe, just maybe, a young lad in his first season playing first team football, needs to build his confidence. Hard to do if people are on your back as soon as you make a mistake.
Let's be honest, half the team aren't firing on all cylinders at the moment.
Will's performance did not stand out to me as being any poorer than any of the starting eleven on Saturday to be fair. The midfield was non-existent and only Freeman, Woody and Thompson offered any threat. Cheltenham pressed very well, so hoofing the ball out of danger was inevitable. Perhaps as the newer cog in the machine, he looked more off the pace when our 'experienced' players decided to have a 'mare.
I'm not one to get on the back of players unnecessarily, but there's a difference between a drop in form (Gape atm, Blackman post spurs) where you can clearly see light at the end of the tunnel, and a player who I just don't think is up to it/ has never shown me anything to suggest he will be anytime soon.
It's twice as frustrating when you've got Sido on the bench, Muller not in the squad and Rowe out on loan.
And yet Muller has had a couple of mares (notably Exeter away). Shouldn't we be getting on his back too, if only for consistency's sake?
@MindlessDrugHoover scapegoating does not work if we do it to all eleven.
WDH looks more likely to succeed at this level than Muller to me. He was very, very impressive at Crewe away.
Both are clearly a step down in quality from Pierre and Stewart, and I'm not yet convinced that either is ready to be one of our first choice centre backs next season.
I agree Muller looks like he has a mistake in him atm, but it's much easier for someone to learn when to "get rid", when they've got a good touch and can pick a pass than it is to go from aimless hoofing to ball-playing.
Muller has also been noticeably better in the air and much less of a red card candidate than WDH whenever I've watched as well
Nonsense. Aside from the fact that I own the company, everyone has a bad day at work every now and then, it happens. Staff can't grow and learn without making mistakes so if your boss puts you on more menial duties when you have a bad day then he's a shit boss. Imagine if you had 4500 people shouting abuse at you for the way you hook the wheelie bin on to the back of the truck.
@WanderingDays It's nasty when you make accusations without any real substance or fact. Your initial post claimed all sorts of random acts of poor play that I hadn't witnessed despite watching the same game. I think you wanted to exagerate how bad you think WDH is as a player and that is nasty in my opinion.
I think we both agree he wasn't that good on Saturday but to go to the lengths you went to in your critisism is poor in the extreme. I suppose you'll either say you have a right to critisise or it's just 'banter' but I think as a supporter you are bang out of order.
If it was a one off that argument might hold water.
If I turned up for work everyday and was decent enough day to day (training) , but when it mattered, ie presenting to bosses/ clients (match day), I then consistently couldn't hack it, to the detriment of the company, I'd soon get my job role changed, or at least get sent off for training. He needs to go out on loan and learn the trade/ prove he's good enough.
I don't know what it is a minority seem to want an individual, a name, to pin their frustrations on.
I didn't exaggerate. He was comfortably beaten or out of position multiple times throughout the game, and that contributed to 2 of their goals. It wasn't "banter" at all. What makes you think that your perceived version of events is somehow more valid than mine simply because you've taken a more positive outlook?
Also, I have never strongly criticised a player like this on here before (admittedly I haven't posted often), or on the Facebook page. It isn't something I'd do at all without good reason. In fact, I think most of the criticism on here of Thompson, Hayes, Gape, O'Nien, Sido and particularly Blackman has been way over the top this season. Just not so for WDH.
With the criticism of WDH and recently Muller and Southwell too, I know others have said it already, but it's worth repeating that these are all young players in their first season at the club. WDH is playing his first pro football and his appearances have been sporadic. Max has made just ten starts this season after a long injury layoff and is adapting to life in a new country and arguably a new style of football. This is Southwell's first season as pro too and he is another who has had first team opportunities limited by injury.
Obviously Muller and WDH are going to look a bit ropey next to Pierre and Stewart, but they're one of the best centre-back pairings in the division and we have rather been spoilt of late in that position with the likes of Mawson and McCarthy.
How many Wycombe players have had slow starts to life at Adams Park and gone on to be good or even great players for us? Brownie, Simmo, Paul McCarthy just to name a few off the top of my head. People writing Southwell off after 13 starts in a Wycombe shirt should perhaps think back to how Jermaine Easter had a slow start here, or how Stuart Beavon took over two seasons to get going in front of goal.
These guys may not be ready to be first team regulars just yet, but given the chance to learn and develop without being pounded for every mistake or bad performance, they could well reach that level in the near future. Fair criticism where it's due - getting on a player's back when they're having a bad game is one thing, but repeatedly targeting a player for abuse, including directly on social media is classless behaviour and I can't imagine in what way the people dishing out this venom think it's going to have anything other than a negative impact on the player and therefore the club.
But @Jonny_King if we are not losing and not yet definitely out of the play-offs some Gasroom posters have no outlet for their anger glands if we don't single somebody out.
I can see issues with Southwell and Muller, but also promise, hence why they've not got the same stick WDH has.
Richard DeHavilland...please note. Wycombe fans are vermin, known fact, don't let it bother you son.
but WDH has shown promise in several games as quite a few on here have pointed out. Agree with the comment about his performance against Portsmouth, he was outstanding when coming on early in that game. So to say he hasn't shown any promise is just plain incorrect.
Admittedly I wasn't at Portsmouth, but I've been to pretty much every game in last 5/6 weeks.
There's a difference between making mistakes and just generally doing things badly.
Mistakes were what what Blackman was making, which often turned a decent performance into a poor one in one moment (but different for a keeper i know), you knew he could do better/ his form and luck would turn, was just a matter of time. The difference for me isn't that he's generally doing well with the odd slip up (Which is the category I have Muller in), it's that his general positioning, anticipation, physicality, decision making and most obviously distribution are all under par.
I'm surprised everyone's going on about WDH's distribution, it shouldn't his job make killer precision passes, the midfield should be coming short to pick up ye ball but if we do insist on hoofing it surely jj or Harriman should be playing those balls not the Cb's. I do agree defensively he looks concerning but if he's not ready he shouldn't play, when we've got sido on the bench who has years experience in this league I put the blame with ainsworth as he picks the team, as for beast and o'nien not playing because they were late I find that rediculous we can't afford to have our best players on the bench at this time in the season if we have any playoff aspirations.
I often see this "young" business thrown around.
Football is a young man's game. 22/23 can be 1/3 of the way through your career, so you pretty much have to be showing a fair amount at that age, especially at the level you're currently playing at.
Unfortunately for WDH, we've been absolutely blessed with centre backs in recent seasons, so he has a very hard comparison.
Pierre and Stewart are as good as anyone in this league, whilst I'm afraid Muller and Will are pure squad fill. Can either of them step up and improve? I don't know. I can't remember the last situation where a similar player came through and became a regular.
People will mention Brownie, but that was almost 25 years ago, and a different circumstance.
Interesting that @WanderingDays is not responding to well to my criticism of his views which I think are extremely harsh on a young player. Worth remembering when dishing out the abuse.
Amazing how many experts in the skills of a lower league centre back there are all of a sudden.
Probably a little bit over the top looking back on my remarks.....id been in the pub garden all day in that blistering sun......wdh like others on Saturday wernt really up to it............apologies for the vermin tone
How am I not responding well to criticism? I've given calm, reasoned, and measured responses to all of your arguments. No malice or insult in my answers at all.
However, it is a bit hypocritical of you to say that I'm acting like an "expert in the skills of a lower league centre back", when you are seemingly trying to act exactly the same, but from a different perspective. I haven't got personal at all during this debate, but you have just done so by inferring that.
Most people with a decent employer would get a reasonable probation period in a new job. This lad's barely had a run of games and is being dismissed. What's worse is that people actively seek him out online to get stuck in. What sort of arse would do that?
I shudder to think what would've become of Steve Brown in the age of online know-alls.