I'm not underestimating Trumps awfulness in fact what I'm saying is the man has so few scruples he would discard any policy that didn't fit his personal agenda once in the Whitehouse . A lot of his headline policies are plainly unworkable you don't state religion on your passport, it's totally impossible to deport that many people oh and I doubt very much if Mexico is going to pay a peso towards his wall.
Chris if the pro choice, gun controlling, supporter of gay marriage DC were dropped into US politics what party do you think he would end up in.
You dodged my question but I'll have a go at yours if we consider the labour party as effectively split his advocacy for social healthcare and stance on foreign wars probably makes him a Liberal democrat or should I say that hole where the lib dems used to be
Cameron is obviously a Republican, he believes in small government and trickle down economics. Obama is too much of a winner to go for the Lib Dems I'd have thought. I'd put him down as in the right of the Labour Party - not a Corbynite for sure. But this whole question just seems like a red herring.
A lot of Obama's policies turned out to be unworkable in the face of a Republican run Congress, but it doesn't mean that I'm not glad he's in power rather than Mitt Romney. I agree that Trump is unlikely to be able to actually build a wall if he's elected - but the very fact he says he wants to is a big, big difference between him and Clinton. I can just about see there not being a big difference between a moderate republican (if such a thing exists anymore - Kasich and Ryan are certainly no moderates) and Clinton; but when the other option is Trump...
I'm probably a bit late on this one, though I'm in the camp of being loath to hasten a coup of the even nastier wing of the Tory party/the UKIPs seizing power, and against the EU being a vehicle to further the demolition of the welfare state, public ownership of vital services and industry, and the corporatist TTIP charter which would do far more to erode democracy (never mind national sovereignty) than anything that the bureaucrats in Brussels would ever dream of.
In the case of voting to either chop my leg off or my arm off, I'll have to abstain.
I'm voting Remain because I think most farmers are tossers, and their big 'Leave' posters are defiling this glorious land.
I'm repeatedly seeing these arable arseholes on TV at the moment, sitting around in kitchens bigger than the average church claiming that they're potless because they only get 3 pence for every field of cabbages they grow because of EU quotas.
We don't need you. We can always eat pot noodles and foraged berries if it comes to it!
Farmers moan more than @trevor and @Wwfc2015_ put together. In fact, I suspect they ARE farmers!
I remember as a boy running for my life from a farmer who didn't like common kids using a public footpath that crossed his land and have you noticed how 90% of roadkill are protected badgers that appear in the early hours after farmer palmer out on his tractor
Once you cut away the sound bites and the partizan nature of rolling new networks, Clinton and Trump are basically indistinguishable. Both are New York liberal elites, both play on the fear of the great unknown 'other', both have been put into this position by a total lack of coherent or viable opposition.
Trump is awful, but his record doesn't include lying to the state department or costing American diplomats their lives. HRC is awful, but at least has some political experience, for better or for worse.
Utter rubbish @floyd . Clinton and Trump are not 'basically indistinguishable' - yes, they have some similarities such as both being multi-millionaires. But their politics are entirely different.
Sorry @Chris, your website really proves nothing. The problem is no one, Trump included, can really tell us what he believes about anything. Just as an example, he changed his mid five times in two days when talking about Roe Vs Wade. He is more than happy to support policy A on Monday and policy not-A on Tuesday. He is the king of political pragmatism.
All we know is that, until very recently at least, he was a financial supporter of Clinton, and a Democrat.
Aye, he's never held a political position so it's hard to see what his policies would be in practice. That's a distinct difference between the two (admittedly one that you acknowledge yourself).
But in the absence of that track record, why would you not judge him on what he says? In any case, saying you don't know what he really believes means you cannot with any justification say he will have the same policies as Clinton.
No I wouldn't judge him on what he says frankly. As I mentioned to Eric Plant, he's said what he's said to win the GOP nomination. He's played on the chaos in the Republican Party and the disillusionment with mainstream politics very well. Appallingly well.
To try and discern actual policy from his mouth is a goose chase without a goose. The media continue to let him slide by on hot takes and bluster, only perpetuating the problem. So, to work out where he stands politically, we have to look at his track record. And that track record has him standing basically shoulder to shoulder with Hillary.
Not speaking for anyone else here, but when calling it a Hobson's choice, it's not because I can't tell them apart, but because I would like neither of them in power. However, Trump is possibly the world's most loathsome human being. So there is that.
@floyd His political track record consists mainly of spending years arguing that a black man was not an American. That's quite enough for me to distinguish him from Clinton.
He says horrible, horrible things; Clinton doesn't. I've heard quite enough of him to know he isn't fit to be a politician. Whether he means what he says or not is largely irrelevant - just saying them is enough to be a disruptive presence in the world. And domestically - how must Muslims and Mexican Americans feel? He is encouraging prejudice and discrimination. The end result of what he says is the same whether he means it or not.
They are clearly different. Stick to your 'challenging opinion' that they are actually the same really if you want. But it's bollocks.
@Chris I think the point others and myself are making is that if Trump (god forbid) was elected backed by the majority of the Tea party and any other bigots that buy his nomination bid BS he will leave them sorely disappointed. Already as it looks like he has crossed the line he's started to cut the rhetoric.
Prior to his conversation to Republicanism he was a firm Democratic, a party donor and personal friend of the Clintons (they were guests of honour at his wedding).
Again don't get me wrong imo he is a nasty piece of work an opportunist that has played the race card outrageously.
Personally I would like Bernie Sanders to by some miracle get the democratic nomination and beat Trump policy wise I'm not on the same page as him but he is more ethically and morally sound than both Clinton and Trump combined.
@Morris_Ital wrote:
Personally I would like Bernie Sanders to by some miracle get the democratic nomination and beat Trump policy wise I'm not on the same page as him but he is more ethically and morally sound than both Clinton and Trump combined.
What's Bernie done to deserve being damned with such faint praise?!
@Morris_Ital I have friends with significantly different political views than mine, some of them might even be at my wedding when I get married. I'm well aware of Trump's past. Which is a mixed history of donations to both Republicans and Democrats. He was no firm Democrat.
But how can you be sure what Trump would be like if he wins? You say he's likely to revert to his previous 'Democratic' stance. Why is that any more likely than following through on his current positions? There's no doubt the guy is full of hot air, and says a lot of things. Literally a lot, he's always on Twitter saying something or other. But there's no evidence that he's stopped with the them and us rhetoric quite yet http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/donald-trump-gonzalo-curiel/485636/
He just isn't similar to Clinton. To think so minimises the danger that this man represents to the world.
@Chris Can i advise you to say sightly closer attention? Unless Trump has suddenly changed his mind about everything in the last 18 months, there is almost no difference between them.
The EU vision is not for me. Haven't gotten over the drama when the UK tax payer (aka us) had stump up an extra £1.57bn by 1 December 2014 to shore up the EU budget, If my memory serves me well, only other EU state to have a surplus was the Dutch as the rest of the main pack where in a deficit and need us to make more contributions to make up the short fall.
To take the pi55, France, Poland and Germany where all set to get a rebate from EU for their overall cock up of their economy.
Yes, we got eventually got a rebate and made yet more meaningless deals, GDP amendments, but what fiasco that was.
British taxpayers having to fork out for the failures of the EU must stop.
Would’ve been easier to send our HMRC team to Greece and put in place apparatus to collect taxes and show them how we do it in the UK.
its all so sad. We are on the verge of a truly global village and all we want to do is put up a big fence round our bit and sulk. All for the sake of a few quid/bucks/euros (that on balance is probably good value for money). Maaan.
(With apologies to our younger contributors who will not have the faintest idea what I'm on about)
@floyd Ha, I'm the one that needs to pay closer attention.
You know he campaigned for the Republican candidacy in 2012, which is more than 18 months ago? You know he has been questioning Obama's US citizenship since 2011, also more than 18 months ago? You know he attended the 1988 Republican convention, considerably more than 18 months ago?
Just because they are in a few photos smiling at each other doesn't make them similar politically.
@bookertease; My next door neighbour made punt on a dead cert, got it wrong and my wife has given his wife monies over the fence to pay their household bills.
Comments
@Chris - yes, I realised there's a clue in the heading. I'll slip away sulking.
@Chris - I really shouldn't speed-read! Your post had nothing to do with mine.
I'm not underestimating Trumps awfulness in fact what I'm saying is the man has so few scruples he would discard any policy that didn't fit his personal agenda once in the Whitehouse . A lot of his headline policies are plainly unworkable you don't state religion on your passport, it's totally impossible to deport that many people oh and I doubt very much if Mexico is going to pay a peso towards his wall.
Chris if the pro choice, gun controlling, supporter of gay marriage DC were dropped into US politics what party do you think he would end up in.
I think as a British man he'd be very unlikely to succeed in either party. If Obama was in British politics, which party would he be in?
You dodged my question but I'll have a go at yours if we consider the labour party as effectively split his advocacy for social healthcare and stance on foreign wars probably makes him a Liberal democrat or should I say that hole where the lib dems used to be
Cameron is obviously a Republican, he believes in small government and trickle down economics. Obama is too much of a winner to go for the Lib Dems I'd have thought. I'd put him down as in the right of the Labour Party - not a Corbynite for sure. But this whole question just seems like a red herring.
A lot of Obama's policies turned out to be unworkable in the face of a Republican run Congress, but it doesn't mean that I'm not glad he's in power rather than Mitt Romney. I agree that Trump is unlikely to be able to actually build a wall if he's elected - but the very fact he says he wants to is a big, big difference between him and Clinton. I can just about see there not being a big difference between a moderate republican (if such a thing exists anymore - Kasich and Ryan are certainly no moderates) and Clinton; but when the other option is Trump...
Whatever happens...watching one lot of Tories calling another load of Tories liars has been most amusing.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/david-cameron-democrat-in-disguise
Okay we'll have to disagree but it makes a change to discuss something other than football
I'm probably a bit late on this one, though I'm in the camp of being loath to hasten a coup of the even nastier wing of the Tory party/the UKIPs seizing power, and against the EU being a vehicle to further the demolition of the welfare state, public ownership of vital services and industry, and the corporatist TTIP charter which would do far more to erode democracy (never mind national sovereignty) than anything that the bureaucrats in Brussels would ever dream of.
In the case of voting to either chop my leg off or my arm off, I'll have to abstain.
I'm voting Remain because I think most farmers are tossers, and their big 'Leave' posters are defiling this glorious land.
I'm repeatedly seeing these arable arseholes on TV at the moment, sitting around in kitchens bigger than the average church claiming that they're potless because they only get 3 pence for every field of cabbages they grow because of EU quotas.
We don't need you. We can always eat pot noodles and foraged berries if it comes to it!
Farmers moan more than @trevor and @Wwfc2015_ put together. In fact, I suspect they ARE farmers!
I remember as a boy running for my life from a farmer who didn't like common kids using a public footpath that crossed his land and have you noticed how 90% of roadkill are protected badgers that appear in the early hours after farmer palmer out on his tractor
Once you cut away the sound bites and the partizan nature of rolling new networks, Clinton and Trump are basically indistinguishable. Both are New York liberal elites, both play on the fear of the great unknown 'other', both have been put into this position by a total lack of coherent or viable opposition.
Trump is awful, but his record doesn't include lying to the state department or costing American diplomats their lives. HRC is awful, but at least has some political experience, for better or for worse.
I guess we all get the leaders we deserve.
I don't think there's much about what Trump has had to say about Muslims, Mexico, combatting terrorism, warfare that could be described as liberal
I never said he didn't know how to secure the GOP nomination.
Utter rubbish @floyd . Clinton and Trump are not 'basically indistinguishable' - yes, they have some similarities such as both being multi-millionaires. But their politics are entirely different.
http://presidential-candidates.insidegov.com/compare/40-70/Hillary-Clinton-vs-Donald-Trump
Sorry @Chris, your website really proves nothing. The problem is no one, Trump included, can really tell us what he believes about anything. Just as an example, he changed his mid five times in two days when talking about Roe Vs Wade. He is more than happy to support policy A on Monday and policy not-A on Tuesday. He is the king of political pragmatism.
All we know is that, until very recently at least, he was a financial supporter of Clinton, and a Democrat.
Aye, he's never held a political position so it's hard to see what his policies would be in practice. That's a distinct difference between the two (admittedly one that you acknowledge yourself).
But in the absence of that track record, why would you not judge him on what he says? In any case, saying you don't know what he really believes means you cannot with any justification say he will have the same policies as Clinton.
No I wouldn't judge him on what he says frankly. As I mentioned to Eric Plant, he's said what he's said to win the GOP nomination. He's played on the chaos in the Republican Party and the disillusionment with mainstream politics very well. Appallingly well.
To try and discern actual policy from his mouth is a goose chase without a goose. The media continue to let him slide by on hot takes and bluster, only perpetuating the problem. So, to work out where he stands politically, we have to look at his track record. And that track record has him standing basically shoulder to shoulder with Hillary.
Not speaking for anyone else here, but when calling it a Hobson's choice, it's not because I can't tell them apart, but because I would like neither of them in power. However, Trump is possibly the world's most loathsome human being. So there is that.
@floyd His political track record consists mainly of spending years arguing that a black man was not an American. That's quite enough for me to distinguish him from Clinton.
He says horrible, horrible things; Clinton doesn't. I've heard quite enough of him to know he isn't fit to be a politician. Whether he means what he says or not is largely irrelevant - just saying them is enough to be a disruptive presence in the world. And domestically - how must Muslims and Mexican Americans feel? He is encouraging prejudice and discrimination. The end result of what he says is the same whether he means it or not.
They are clearly different. Stick to your 'challenging opinion' that they are actually the same really if you want. But it's bollocks.
@Chris I think the point others and myself are making is that if Trump (god forbid) was elected backed by the majority of the Tea party and any other bigots that buy his nomination bid BS he will leave them sorely disappointed. Already as it looks like he has crossed the line he's started to cut the rhetoric.
Prior to his conversation to Republicanism he was a firm Democratic, a party donor and personal friend of the Clintons (they were guests of honour at his wedding).
Again don't get me wrong imo he is a nasty piece of work an opportunist that has played the race card outrageously.
Personally I would like Bernie Sanders to by some miracle get the democratic nomination and beat Trump policy wise I'm not on the same page as him but he is more ethically and morally sound than both Clinton and Trump combined.
How come a poll on the EU referendum finishes off being a discussion on the U.S. elections ? Are so many really not that bothered ?
What's Bernie done to deserve being damned with such faint praise?!
@Morris_Ital I have friends with significantly different political views than mine, some of them might even be at my wedding when I get married. I'm well aware of Trump's past. Which is a mixed history of donations to both Republicans and Democrats. He was no firm Democrat.
But how can you be sure what Trump would be like if he wins? You say he's likely to revert to his previous 'Democratic' stance. Why is that any more likely than following through on his current positions? There's no doubt the guy is full of hot air, and says a lot of things. Literally a lot, he's always on Twitter saying something or other. But there's no evidence that he's stopped with the them and us rhetoric quite yet http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/06/donald-trump-gonzalo-curiel/485636/
He just isn't similar to Clinton. To think so minimises the danger that this man represents to the world.
@Chris Can i advise you to say sightly closer attention? Unless Trump has suddenly changed his mind about everything in the last 18 months, there is almost no difference between them.
@floyd so he's saying completely the opposite to what he actually believes then? And a lot of those things are despicable, and racist?
And you're still undecided as to which you'd least like to see win?
The EU vision is not for me. Haven't gotten over the drama when the UK tax payer (aka us) had stump up an extra £1.57bn by 1 December 2014 to shore up the EU budget, If my memory serves me well, only other EU state to have a surplus was the Dutch as the rest of the main pack where in a deficit and need us to make more contributions to make up the short fall.
To take the pi55, France, Poland and Germany where all set to get a rebate from EU for their overall cock up of their economy.
Yes, we got eventually got a rebate and made yet more meaningless deals, GDP amendments, but what fiasco that was.
British taxpayers having to fork out for the failures of the EU must stop.
Would’ve been easier to send our HMRC team to Greece and put in place apparatus to collect taxes and show them how we do it in the UK.
I'm a firm out.
its all so sad. We are on the verge of a truly global village and all we want to do is put up a big fence round our bit and sulk. All for the sake of a few quid/bucks/euros (that on balance is probably good value for money). Maaan.
(With apologies to our younger contributors who will not have the faintest idea what I'm on about)
@floyd Ha, I'm the one that needs to pay closer attention.
You know he campaigned for the Republican candidacy in 2012, which is more than 18 months ago? You know he has been questioning Obama's US citizenship since 2011, also more than 18 months ago? You know he attended the 1988 Republican convention, considerably more than 18 months ago?
Just because they are in a few photos smiling at each other doesn't make them similar politically.
This article includes a history of his campaign donations http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/07/28/426888268/donald-trumps-flipping-political-donations - he never was a committed Democrat.
You say there is almost no difference between them, but I see few points of similarity, other than both being famous and very wealthy.
@bookertease; My next door neighbour made punt on a dead cert, got it wrong and my wife has given his wife monies over the fence to pay their household bills.
Thanks love.