It's either yes or no for me. Still undecided which isn't an option on your poll
Not sure if anything will break through the current bluster and scaremongering to give me a better idea but then maybe the simple fact is no-one knows what will happen either way. Politicians could improve greatly but just admitting they don't know the answer to some things.
Scary thing in the US is that Trump is in some ways a much less scary proposition than the other option Clinton.
Meanwhile to the subject in hand, pretty clear that there would be significant initial economic impact at least and possible long term damage, and as always it will be the poorer sections of society who pay with their jobs. Potential damage to long term security, especially if it lead to an EU break up and significant damage to social cohesion a) if it lead to further right politicians gaining power b) when the less educated section of the Brexit vote (the demographics split that BRexiters are dominant amongst the old and the less well educated) realise that the EU is not the source of all their woes c) if worker protections are dissipated by our new right wing masters. And the killer point that frankly the other 27 countries all want to preserve the existence of the EU and hence have to make it clear to their populations that leaving EU is bad news and hence have to make us fail. So the idea of them giving us all we want is just naïve.
All this downside for what appears to be no real upside, once you clear away the bluster, apart from a fear of nasty foreigners.
Hi @Chris . You are right. It's way to big a topic for this forum but for all Trumps bluster and fury Clinton has a pretty horrible record in office and is up against some real pressure about her email usage whilst there and since. Seems a bit of a Hobsons Choice to me to be honest and one I'm happy not to have to decide on.
Thanks for writing alot of words giving one side of the EU debate @DevC . All these assumptions and guesswork must have you excited for each new bulletin.
Your killer point is an interesting one. I'm not sure all or even most of the other 27 countries want to preserve the EU and any EU leader who comes out and tell us to vote to stay in must know they are only helping justify the exit argument of being told what to do. Even Obama has come under fire for giving an opinion. For what it is worth I think the EU will break up in time anyway. Other countries will vote and one will vote out and that will set the cards falling.
I have no idea which way I'll vote and have three weeks to decide. The most dissapointing aspect is though politicians have never been more hysterical about a subject and this has lead to far too much rubbish being spoken. Politics will suffer for years to come and confidence in those who lead will be very hard to get back. I'm simply not sure anyone will be able to tell me anything to help me decide. Even someone just saying I don't know would help.
Trump has said he would ban Muslims from entering the US, would use torture, would build a wall to keep out Mexicans, and would use nuclear weapons against ISIS.
Clinton has a 'pretty horrible record in office' (she's too hawkish for me, but no more so than the current regime, which is pretty obvious considering she was a significant part of the current regime) and used a privately hosted email server for some official communications (something that senior Conservative party officials and politicians did during the coalition government). What is it about her potential presidency that scares you?
@Chris You asked for an expansion of 'in some ways' and I gave it to you. You are more than entitled to your opinion but I don't really see much difference between the two candidates. Trump won't be allowed to do the sound bite moments you mention and Clinton has history near the job that worries me. I don't trust someone who should have left her husband for what he did but played the long game to use the name to get to where she is today. What else has she or could she overlook for her own gain? Of course you can argue the other side of all these points and that's fine. I don't have to decide and I'm not really that bothered in the debate if it's with people with as little influence as me.
I'm still not sure what it is about her potential presidency that would scare you - you've explained why you wouldn't want her to be president but I don't think anything that supports your earlier statement Scary thing in the US is that Trump is in some ways a much less scary proposition than the other option Clinton. when Trump could be a genuinely destabilising leader and Clinton represents continuity.
I remember "politics are not welcome here" from the old gasroom.
But I ignored that then and will do so now so here are my thoughts.
On the EU referendum I'm still undecided a lot of vested interests seem to want to scare me into voting remain and a lot of scary people want me to vote to leave.
Trump and Clinton were old friends the Clintons went to his wedding a few years back. Trump has played to the prejudice of the American right in order to get the nomination but in office he and Hillary would I believe be quite similar just paying off their campaign backers. People over here don't realise that in many ways the democratic party is to the right of Cameron.
@Chris As I've said you are entitled to an opinion and I've given you mine. I don't think Trump will be able to do the sound bite stuff that bothers you and it does scare me that the US presidency becomes a family title and Clinton played the long game on this when she could have got out of her marriage. Two differing points of view but I think we are agreed that neither should be given the job and that is probably the scariest part of it all. Why aren't good people going for these jobs?
It's been a dreadful campaign by both sides, it really has. The over the top scaremongering from the Remain camp has been embarrassing at times, whilst the Leave camp seem to have no substance to their argument other than it may help cut down immigration, which in my view is only a very small part of the whole debate. Definitely Remain for me, I just can't see how leaving and the uncertainty that it will bring will in anyway benefit the UK either in the short or long term. Just my opinion of course!
US political parties (at least before the last few years of polarisation largely because of the rise of the right wing Tea Party movement in the Republicans) always contained members with a wider spectrum of beliefs than UK political parties. A Democrat in a southern state might be more traditionally 'right-wing' than a Republican in New England. It's too simple to say the Democrats are to the right of Cameron - Sanders certainly isn't (but then Sanders wasn't even a Democrat a couple of years ago).
Trump is an interesting one, as he was once considered a Democrat. He isn't a traditional conservative Republican with religious values at the heart of his policies. Trump spent a ridiculous amount of time insisting Obama shouldn't be President as he wasn't born in the USA - even after Obama produced his Hawaiian birth certificate. Trump is a publicity seeker who would do anything to get elected - he's not a politician and has no experience of running anything except his businesses. And that's a whole other story. It's worth watching the documentary You've been Trumped about the construction of Trump's Scottish golf course, and reading about the Trump University debacle.
There is no indication that the presidencies of Trump or Clinton would be alike. For one, there is an open seat on the Supreme Court (appointed to by the president) which will shift the balance of judges to either 5 conservative and 4 liberal or vice versa. That will have a long lasting impact on US politics beyond the presidencies of the current nominees. And that's without even looking at the stated policies of the two, which just aren't comparable.
@Right_in_the_Middle Actually I'm quite looking forward to the election of the first female POTUS - she's not my ideal candidate but I think she'll do a good job.
Despite many rational reasons for voting leave I'm remain, mainly due to the people leading the leave campaign. Boris, Neil Hamilton and their ilk are horrific people.
If we're discussing politics, I think one of the most important subjects for debate should be TTIP. Encouraged to read the attached article in the Independent this morning.
without going through all of the political reasons for why or not anything that has the greasy turgid riders of the apocolypse of Galloway; Farage; Gove and Hunt (never mind their pets IDS and Boris) trying to persuade me that I should believe in what ever it is they do is an immediate reason to disappoint Mr Pugin and vote to stay in
The thing with Clinton's emails though, is that no matter how many times she asked for a properly encrypted Blackberry with end to end encryption through government servers (like many / most of Obama's cabinet have), she wasn't given one.
On the flip side, Trump has long funded both Clintons. I'd agree with @Right_in_the_Middle that it's Hobson's choice.
@drcongo I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories but I did wonder for some time if Trump had come up with this plan with the Clintons to sabotage the Republican nomination and ensure Hillary's ascension to the Oval Office
@eric_plant - gosh, that's a good 'un. @DevC - I did read your lengthy post above and understood quite a bit of it. You didn't say you were referring to "Leave" but I worked that out.
As a self-confessed pedantic old fart, I do wish you (and others) would use the correct past tense spelling of 'lead' - ie 'led'. Academics suggest that the confusion arises from the respective tense spellings of 'read'.
This thread should be in the "Not Football" category, shouldn't it. I don't really do politics.
Stand corrected I honestly thought Hunt was an outie as he seems more Gove'esque if that's a term in his outlook of ignoring what ever anyone else thinks, I know he's a right Berkshire though. IDS can take his pony as fourth rider then
Comments
The third option is in case Donald Trump fancies voting I guess.
The third option is for the few Gasroom users who have turned up from the Facebook group.
It's either yes or no for me. Still undecided which isn't an option on your poll
Not sure if anything will break through the current bluster and scaremongering to give me a better idea but then maybe the simple fact is no-one knows what will happen either way. Politicians could improve greatly but just admitting they don't know the answer to some things.
Scary thing in the US is that Trump is in some ways a much less scary proposition than the other option Clinton.
I'm not sure I want to open this can of worms, but please explain these 'in some ways'.
I suspect you might wait a while, Chris.
Meanwhile to the subject in hand, pretty clear that there would be significant initial economic impact at least and possible long term damage, and as always it will be the poorer sections of society who pay with their jobs. Potential damage to long term security, especially if it lead to an EU break up and significant damage to social cohesion a) if it lead to further right politicians gaining power b) when the less educated section of the Brexit vote (the demographics split that BRexiters are dominant amongst the old and the less well educated) realise that the EU is not the source of all their woes c) if worker protections are dissipated by our new right wing masters. And the killer point that frankly the other 27 countries all want to preserve the existence of the EU and hence have to make it clear to their populations that leaving EU is bad news and hence have to make us fail. So the idea of them giving us all we want is just naïve.
All this downside for what appears to be no real upside, once you clear away the bluster, apart from a fear of nasty foreigners.
Agree with all of that.
I'm voting out and nothing will make me change my mind not even WWIII Mr Cameron.
What's your main reasons for doing so @robin ?
Hi @Chris . You are right. It's way to big a topic for this forum but for all Trumps bluster and fury Clinton has a pretty horrible record in office and is up against some real pressure about her email usage whilst there and since. Seems a bit of a Hobsons Choice to me to be honest and one I'm happy not to have to decide on.
Thanks for writing alot of words giving one side of the EU debate @DevC . All these assumptions and guesswork must have you excited for each new bulletin.
Your killer point is an interesting one. I'm not sure all or even most of the other 27 countries want to preserve the EU and any EU leader who comes out and tell us to vote to stay in must know they are only helping justify the exit argument of being told what to do. Even Obama has come under fire for giving an opinion. For what it is worth I think the EU will break up in time anyway. Other countries will vote and one will vote out and that will set the cards falling.
I have no idea which way I'll vote and have three weeks to decide. The most dissapointing aspect is though politicians have never been more hysterical about a subject and this has lead to far too much rubbish being spoken. Politics will suffer for years to come and confidence in those who lead will be very hard to get back. I'm simply not sure anyone will be able to tell me anything to help me decide. Even someone just saying I don't know would help.
You don't know - (about this and so many things)
Glad to be of help.
Trump has said he would ban Muslims from entering the US, would use torture, would build a wall to keep out Mexicans, and would use nuclear weapons against ISIS.
Clinton has a 'pretty horrible record in office' (she's too hawkish for me, but no more so than the current regime, which is pretty obvious considering she was a significant part of the current regime) and used a privately hosted email server for some official communications (something that senior Conservative party officials and politicians did during the coalition government). What is it about her potential presidency that scares you?
@Chris You asked for an expansion of 'in some ways' and I gave it to you. You are more than entitled to your opinion but I don't really see much difference between the two candidates. Trump won't be allowed to do the sound bite moments you mention and Clinton has history near the job that worries me. I don't trust someone who should have left her husband for what he did but played the long game to use the name to get to where she is today. What else has she or could she overlook for her own gain? Of course you can argue the other side of all these points and that's fine. I don't have to decide and I'm not really that bothered in the debate if it's with people with as little influence as me.
I'm still not sure what it is about her potential presidency that would scare you - you've explained why you wouldn't want her to be president but I don't think anything that supports your earlier statement Scary thing in the US is that Trump is in some ways a much less scary proposition than the other option Clinton. when Trump could be a genuinely destabilising leader and Clinton represents continuity.
I remember "politics are not welcome here" from the old gasroom.
But I ignored that then and will do so now so here are my thoughts.
On the EU referendum I'm still undecided a lot of vested interests seem to want to scare me into voting remain and a lot of scary people want me to vote to leave.
Trump and Clinton were old friends the Clintons went to his wedding a few years back. Trump has played to the prejudice of the American right in order to get the nomination but in office he and Hillary would I believe be quite similar just paying off their campaign backers. People over here don't realise that in many ways the democratic party is to the right of Cameron.
@Chris As I've said you are entitled to an opinion and I've given you mine. I don't think Trump will be able to do the sound bite stuff that bothers you and it does scare me that the US presidency becomes a family title and Clinton played the long game on this when she could have got out of her marriage. Two differing points of view but I think we are agreed that neither should be given the job and that is probably the scariest part of it all. Why aren't good people going for these jobs?
It's been a dreadful campaign by both sides, it really has. The over the top scaremongering from the Remain camp has been embarrassing at times, whilst the Leave camp seem to have no substance to their argument other than it may help cut down immigration, which in my view is only a very small part of the whole debate. Definitely Remain for me, I just can't see how leaving and the uncertainty that it will bring will in anyway benefit the UK either in the short or long term. Just my opinion of course!
US political parties (at least before the last few years of polarisation largely because of the rise of the right wing Tea Party movement in the Republicans) always contained members with a wider spectrum of beliefs than UK political parties. A Democrat in a southern state might be more traditionally 'right-wing' than a Republican in New England. It's too simple to say the Democrats are to the right of Cameron - Sanders certainly isn't (but then Sanders wasn't even a Democrat a couple of years ago).
Trump is an interesting one, as he was once considered a Democrat. He isn't a traditional conservative Republican with religious values at the heart of his policies. Trump spent a ridiculous amount of time insisting Obama shouldn't be President as he wasn't born in the USA - even after Obama produced his Hawaiian birth certificate. Trump is a publicity seeker who would do anything to get elected - he's not a politician and has no experience of running anything except his businesses. And that's a whole other story. It's worth watching the documentary You've been Trumped about the construction of Trump's Scottish golf course, and reading about the Trump University debacle.
There is no indication that the presidencies of Trump or Clinton would be alike. For one, there is an open seat on the Supreme Court (appointed to by the president) which will shift the balance of judges to either 5 conservative and 4 liberal or vice versa. That will have a long lasting impact on US politics beyond the presidencies of the current nominees. And that's without even looking at the stated policies of the two, which just aren't comparable.
@Right_in_the_Middle Actually I'm quite looking forward to the election of the first female POTUS - she's not my ideal candidate but I think she'll do a good job.
Despite many rational reasons for voting leave I'm remain, mainly due to the people leading the leave campaign. Boris, Neil Hamilton and their ilk are horrific people.
Good for you @Chris . I'd love to see the first female POTUS too. I just think all females deserve someone better.
If we're discussing politics, I think one of the most important subjects for debate should be TTIP. Encouraged to read the attached article in the Independent this morning.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/corbyn-has-rejected-ttip-even-as-he-campaigns-to-remain-and-the-eu-needs-to-listen-a7063176.html
@DJTaylor Hang on, this doesn't appear to be under "a fear of nasty foreigners" so can't be worth reading.
without going through all of the political reasons for why or not anything that has the greasy turgid riders of the apocolypse of Galloway; Farage; Gove and Hunt (never mind their pets IDS and Boris) trying to persuade me that I should believe in what ever it is they do is an immediate reason to disappoint Mr Pugin and vote to stay in
The thing with Clinton's emails though, is that no matter how many times she asked for a properly encrypted Blackberry with end to end encryption through government servers (like many / most of Obama's cabinet have), she wasn't given one.
On the flip side, Trump has long funded both Clintons. I'd agree with @Right_in_the_Middle that it's Hobson's choice.
@crabbie Hunt is pro remain
@drcongo I'm not usually one for conspiracy theories but I did wonder for some time if Trump had come up with this plan with the Clintons to sabotage the Republican nomination and ensure Hillary's ascension to the Oval Office
@eric_plant You're not alone: http://blackbag.gawker.com/is-donald-trump-running-a-false-flag-campaign-to-help-h-1723925057
@eric_plant - gosh, that's a good 'un.
@DevC - I did read your lengthy post above and understood quite a bit of it. You didn't say you were referring to "Leave" but I worked that out.
As a self-confessed pedantic old fart, I do wish you (and others) would use the correct past tense spelling of 'lead' - ie 'led'. Academics suggest that the confusion arises from the respective tense spellings of 'read'.
This thread should be in the "Not Football" category, shouldn't it. I don't really do politics.
I think the answer to the question in that headline is 'no', as does the author of the article.
I also think that anyone who thinks there is no difference between Trump and Clinton is significantly underestimating the awfulness of Trump.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/feb/17/central-park-five-donald-trump-jogger-rape-case-new-york
Stand corrected I honestly thought Hunt was an outie as he seems more Gove'esque if that's a term in his outlook of ignoring what ever anyone else thinks, I know he's a right Berkshire though. IDS can take his pony as fourth rider then