@TheAndyGrahamFanClub I doubt dialling down criticism of the man who created the chilling divide and continues to widen it with every word out of his mouth, will ever heal the divide myself. Let's be the better people, behave with diplomacy, tact and decorum and try and heal the divide while him and his minions point and laugh.
I would also like to suggest as they build Space Force, that Elon Musk is amongst the first crew to Mars...
I meant dialling down the name calling and the general partisan politics that blights America and will blight us increasingly over this parliament and beyond.
I find it much harder to fathom how he managed to get the Republican nomination than why the general public voted for him, he offered hope (no matter how implausible that seems to us) and easy answers to much of what appears to ail the USA. Harris was a little too sneering, too antagonistic and too tied to the woke agenda that sits ill with much of the USA.
I think he will be disastrous for the USA ( not really my problem) but also disastrous for us & the rest of the world especially given his highly isolationist immigration & economic policies. Only time will tell where it leads & if he follows through on some of his more random outburst on the campaign trail.
I’m not saying that it’s good, but I’ve been obsessed by US politics since Trump came down his vulgar golden escalator in 2016. So forgive me if I’m only slightly interested in the anecdotal evidence of what a few Americans have said to one of our posters. I should say that I’m deeply impressed by the likes of Liz Cheney and the Never Trump Republicans who have chosen democracy over tribe.
The US has had the best recovery of any G7 economy bar none. There was a burst of inflation caused by supply chain issues following COVID. Since then, inflation has rapidly come down to the Fed’s target range. A soft landing has been achieved. Unemployment has been sustained at historically low levels.
Of course, some Americans are struggling economically. But the people who believe that the US is doing badly economically, still less relatively badly, are deluded by the right wing media ecosystem - Fox, OAN, etc.. The vast majority of people who voted for Trump are doing well economically compared with how they were doing in 2016 and 2020
People voted for Trump because of immigration. This is partly a real issue, but Trump blew up a very right wing deal on immigration negotiated in the Senate because he wanted the issue not a solution. But it’s also a lot about Americans not liking black and brown people - “They’re eating the cats and dogs”.
People voted for Trump because of “culture war” issues. They don’t like trans people, but they also don’t like gay people and many of them think a woman’s place is in the home.
Trump is a convicted felon and an adjudicated rapist. He has a history of racism from the Central Park 5 onwards. He incited an insurrection to try to overthrow the results of a democratic election. Voting for him in 2024 was a profound moral failure.
You’ve articulated facts in a way that Harris clearly was incapable of.
Trump convinced the electorate that the bad things were the fault of others. And the others could do their bad things because Biden and therefore Harris allowed it. And the democrats could not convince otherwise
But let’s face it partisan politics has never been so strong. The centre ground is a distant memory.
I also am fascinated by celebrities in politics. Voters obsess which way a celeb will endorse. Jennifer Lopez’s speech was toe curlingly sincere. And I just think an auto worker in Flint Michigan is not that bothered what a multi millionaire jet setting celebrity thinks about issues.
I can try. I heard her issues described this morning as 'the three Is.' Inflation, immigration and identity politics.
Inflation - people are worse off than there were four years ago. Not only did Harris not have anything substantive to say to those people, she also failed to differentiate herself from Biden's economic policies.
Immigration - Harris never explained why she was not responsible for the current situation at the southern border, nor what she would do differently as president. I think this helps explain the large number of latino voters who went for Trump.
Identity politics - Most Americans view identity politics as a luxury at best, and an absurdity at worst. They simply don't care about the issues that Harris and her campaign assumed they would. This helps to explain the stronger than usual support for Trump among women and African Americans. She had nothing to say to these people.
In the end it wasn't close, either in the Electoral College or in the popular vote. I think that if Harris had done one of half a dozen things differently she probably would have won. Picking Walz as her VP was a disaster. Not even having the semblance of a primary was a disaster. Closing her campaign describing Trump voters as Nazis and garbage was a disaster. Refusing substantive policy interviews was a disaster. Inviting paid performers to lecture voters at her rallies was a disaster.
It's my hope that the magnitude of these defeat will lead to some circumspection and readjustment by the Democrats. I had the same hope for the British media, but an hour or so of BBC radio this afternoon has disabused me of that notion.
Again this illustrates the fundamental problem with first past the post voting (yes I know the US system is a little more nuanced than that).
Trump has currently 50.9% of the votes but 100% of the power and f**k you if you don't like everything he stands for.
With control of both the Senate and Congress he'll just be able to do whatever he wants. Another day when I'm glad I don't live in the US. Sorry @Shev@floyd.
There's no other way to choose a Chief Executive when the executive is not part of the legislature is there? The President never has '100% of the power,' he always has to work with Congress, who can always frustrate his aims. Control of Congress for the next couple of years gives the GOP a chance to define themselves apart from Trump in preparation for 2028. We'll see if the GOP will do a better job at restraining the extremes of their party than the Democrats did.
If you don't like him you can express that in two years at the mid-terms, or in four years when you vote for a different candidate. It's literally what just happened.
I’m genuinely shocked by this @floyd . “[A] better job at restraining the extremes of their party than the Democrats did”. Can you name one “extremist” thing the Biden administration did?
Thank you. It’s helpful to try to understandas obviously reporting is limited over here.
Taking your three points
Inflation
looking from over here, it feels like the Biden administration managed the economy pretty well - with growth higher and inflation lower than most other Western countries. It was perhaps inevitable that the world economy would stumble post Covid and the West’s unnecessary provoking Russia leading to the Ukraine war and problems with energy started long before Biden. Is this really a case of Democrats abandoning ordinary people or simply a case of them being blamed for events out of their control
2 immigration
the issues in several Central American countries are lightly reported here. I understand they are quite severe. People are moving all over the world. What impact is this having on the average American in say Michegan? Is it really possible to do much to stop desperate people especially with such a massive unpopulated land border
3 identity politics
that phrase , a bit like “woke” seems to mean different things to different people with both sides of the political divide accusing the other of indulging in it. Could you expand on what you mean?
Food prices rose by something like a fifth, which makes a material impact on people’s lives. Whether there is a justifiable reason for the inflation, or whether it was worse in other countries doesn’t make it feel less bad.
By any metric the Biden/Harris/Walz ticket was one of the most socially extreme in American history. Harris is currently giving her concession speech, and she's coming across as much more genuine than she ever did during her campaign, partly because she can be herself rather than worry what the influential fringe of her party wants her to say.
To state the obvious the Democrats ran a terrible campaign, Biden should have been persuaded not to stand and bow out gracefully , then they should have had a proper run off to choose a candidate that would have wiped the floor with Trump , a Gavin Newsom (maybe with a little less baggage) type.
It's got to be more ingrained, It's not like T Rump ran any kind of clever nuanced campaign and got all the appointments and marginal calls right, he rejects things like truth, law and basic decency and people can either go with it or not, pointing to little things the other candidates do while he pisses on the process and anyone and everything seems like a get out clause to justify supporting him.
I guess if you run as the "decent" candidate option you have to be above reproach but let's have it right: If you don't mind that he's a liar, racist, rapist, serial litigator, insurrectionist, defaults on all loans and agreements, is hated by most people who were ever colleagues or friends and is disgusting at a very basic level AND you think that might all be fun it says more about the voter than the candidate. It's clear many people will suffer as a result of his leadership and I don't mean by a percentage inflation or a random stat or two.
From my chats with my American professional and personal friends in recent months (in Republican and Democrat states and with partisan voters and non) they all acknowledge who Trump is and his utter nonsense. They all have a dimmer view of him compared to 2016. But they all felt he represented a brighter future for them than Harris. That is how bad the Democrat campaign was. And the most common reason was that they felt that they were being sneered at as voters (even Democrat friends felt that was the vibe). And you can see that from social media over the past 24 hours. Referring to voters as stupid, racist, bigots etc etc is not going to win hearts and minds, it will create a siege mentality and strengthen Trump. The Brexit campaign was similar I guess. Don't listen to people fears (I don't care if they are unfounded, they are not unfounded to them) and you will see what happens.
For me the only option would be Harris, unless of course you cast your vote and decide to spoil it or just not vote at all.
Voting for Trump does not make you racist, stupid, bigoted and should certainly not mean you can be abused by non Trump supporters but your views are certainly not inline with mine. I would find it difficult maintaining a close friendship with someone who voted for Trump though I suspect I don't have any friends who would consider that if they were living in the US.
It is relatively easy for us, as outsiders, to question how & why Trump was successful & why after the brief honeymoon period Harris was so lacklustre; but we only need to look back at the Brexit campaign to see how easy it is for the populists to swing it in their favour when the incumbent runs a non campaign & ignores at best & belittles at worst the concerns of a decent sized chunk of the electorate.
Given that we are living in a glasshouse perhaps we shouldn't be throwing stones.
Er. no you can point out that there were problems with the democratic campaign and still be desperately disappointed that we’re facing another trump presidency.
Respectfully, I have friends that are Republicans I have friends that are Democrats, I have friends that are Labour I have friends that are Tory. To say you would find it hard to maintain a friendship with someone who voted Trump is quite sad to me. Statistics show in the US that inter-political relationships are on the slide and this cannot be good for any of us. I don't have to agree with my friends, but I have to agree they have the right to their opinion and I also have a duty as a friend to listen to their opinions and maybe even empathise. I might be shocked to find out I am wrong one day. Trump is a frontman, an odious one to me but a front man non the less, to a set of ideals that people believe in more than they believe in the others.
Interesting thought that the Americans will likely have had another election (if they bother to continue with such things) before our next election. Germany will likely vote again in 2025 with AFD likely to do well and Le Pen will likely challenge Macron in France in 2027. Netherlands and Italy have already elected "populist" leaders.
It does feel like as the higher educated generally better off people become more liberal, the "left behinds" across the western world are embracing "populism". Those of us who prefer a more liberal outlook better find away of addressing this trend if our view is to prevail.
Comments
To put in a sentence, the Democrats abandoned ordinary Americans, so ordinary Americans returned the favor.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub I doubt dialling down criticism of the man who created the chilling divide and continues to widen it with every word out of his mouth, will ever heal the divide myself. Let's be the better people, behave with diplomacy, tact and decorum and try and heal the divide while him and his minions point and laugh.
I would also like to suggest as they build Space Force, that Elon Musk is amongst the first crew to Mars...
I meant dialling down the name calling and the general partisan politics that blights America and will blight us increasingly over this parliament and beyond.
I find it much harder to fathom how he managed to get the Republican nomination than why the general public voted for him, he offered hope (no matter how implausible that seems to us) and easy answers to much of what appears to ail the USA. Harris was a little too sneering, too antagonistic and too tied to the woke agenda that sits ill with much of the USA.
I think he will be disastrous for the USA ( not really my problem) but also disastrous for us & the rest of the world especially given his highly isolationist immigration & economic policies. Only time will tell where it leads & if he follows through on some of his more random outburst on the campaign trail.
i Believe you are based in the States. Could you explain more. In what way do you feel the democrats have abandoned ordinary Americans?
I’m not saying that it’s good, but I’ve been obsessed by US politics since Trump came down his vulgar golden escalator in 2016. So forgive me if I’m only slightly interested in the anecdotal evidence of what a few Americans have said to one of our posters. I should say that I’m deeply impressed by the likes of Liz Cheney and the Never Trump Republicans who have chosen democracy over tribe.
The US has had the best recovery of any G7 economy bar none. There was a burst of inflation caused by supply chain issues following COVID. Since then, inflation has rapidly come down to the Fed’s target range. A soft landing has been achieved. Unemployment has been sustained at historically low levels.
Of course, some Americans are struggling economically. But the people who believe that the US is doing badly economically, still less relatively badly, are deluded by the right wing media ecosystem - Fox, OAN, etc.. The vast majority of people who voted for Trump are doing well economically compared with how they were doing in 2016 and 2020
People voted for Trump because of immigration. This is partly a real issue, but Trump blew up a very right wing deal on immigration negotiated in the Senate because he wanted the issue not a solution. But it’s also a lot about Americans not liking black and brown people - “They’re eating the cats and dogs”.
People voted for Trump because of “culture war” issues. They don’t like trans people, but they also don’t like gay people and many of them think a woman’s place is in the home.
Trump is a convicted felon and an adjudicated rapist. He has a history of racism from the Central Park 5 onwards. He incited an insurrection to try to overthrow the results of a democratic election. Voting for him in 2024 was a profound moral failure.
And if that’s “sneering” so fucking be it
You’ve articulated facts in a way that Harris clearly was incapable of.
Trump convinced the electorate that the bad things were the fault of others. And the others could do their bad things because Biden and therefore Harris allowed it. And the democrats could not convince otherwise
But let’s face it partisan politics has never been so strong. The centre ground is a distant memory.
I also am fascinated by celebrities in politics. Voters obsess which way a celeb will endorse. Jennifer Lopez’s speech was toe curlingly sincere. And I just think an auto worker in Flint Michigan is not that bothered what a multi millionaire jet setting celebrity thinks about issues.
Harris is very obviously a centrist on the right of the Democratic Party
I can try. I heard her issues described this morning as 'the three Is.' Inflation, immigration and identity politics.
Inflation - people are worse off than there were four years ago. Not only did Harris not have anything substantive to say to those people, she also failed to differentiate herself from Biden's economic policies.
Immigration - Harris never explained why she was not responsible for the current situation at the southern border, nor what she would do differently as president. I think this helps explain the large number of latino voters who went for Trump.
Identity politics - Most Americans view identity politics as a luxury at best, and an absurdity at worst. They simply don't care about the issues that Harris and her campaign assumed they would. This helps to explain the stronger than usual support for Trump among women and African Americans. She had nothing to say to these people.
In the end it wasn't close, either in the Electoral College or in the popular vote. I think that if Harris had done one of half a dozen things differently she probably would have won. Picking Walz as her VP was a disaster. Not even having the semblance of a primary was a disaster. Closing her campaign describing Trump voters as Nazis and garbage was a disaster. Refusing substantive policy interviews was a disaster. Inviting paid performers to lecture voters at her rallies was a disaster.
It's my hope that the magnitude of these defeat will lead to some circumspection and readjustment by the Democrats. I had the same hope for the British media, but an hour or so of BBC radio this afternoon has disabused me of that notion.
Again this illustrates the fundamental problem with first past the post voting (yes I know the US system is a little more nuanced than that).
Trump has currently 50.9% of the votes but 100% of the power and f**k you if you don't like everything he stands for.
With control of both the Senate and Congress he'll just be able to do whatever he wants. Another day when I'm glad I don't live in the US. Sorry @Shev @floyd.
There's no other way to choose a Chief Executive when the executive is not part of the legislature is there? The President never has '100% of the power,' he always has to work with Congress, who can always frustrate his aims. Control of Congress for the next couple of years gives the GOP a chance to define themselves apart from Trump in preparation for 2028. We'll see if the GOP will do a better job at restraining the extremes of their party than the Democrats did.
If you don't like him you can express that in two years at the mid-terms, or in four years when you vote for a different candidate. It's literally what just happened.
I’m genuinely shocked by this @floyd . “[A] better job at restraining the extremes of their party than the Democrats did”. Can you name one “extremist” thing the Biden administration did?
Thank you. It’s helpful to try to understandas obviously reporting is limited over here.
Taking your three points
looking from over here, it feels like the Biden administration managed the economy pretty well - with growth higher and inflation lower than most other Western countries. It was perhaps inevitable that the world economy would stumble post Covid and the West’s unnecessary provoking Russia leading to the Ukraine war and problems with energy started long before Biden. Is this really a case of Democrats abandoning ordinary people or simply a case of them being blamed for events out of their control
2 immigration
the issues in several Central American countries are lightly reported here. I understand they are quite severe. People are moving all over the world. What impact is this having on the average American in say Michegan? Is it really possible to do much to stop desperate people especially with such a massive unpopulated land border
3 identity politics
that phrase , a bit like “woke” seems to mean different things to different people with both sides of the political divide accusing the other of indulging in it. Could you expand on what you mean?
Food prices rose by something like a fifth, which makes a material impact on people’s lives. Whether there is a justifiable reason for the inflation, or whether it was worse in other countries doesn’t make it feel less bad.
By any metric the Biden/Harris/Walz ticket was one of the most socially extreme in American history. Harris is currently giving her concession speech, and she's coming across as much more genuine than she ever did during her campaign, partly because she can be herself rather than worry what the influential fringe of her party wants her to say.
I enjoy the cut and thrust of political discourse, but it's not why i use the Gasroom. I'm off to watch last night's highlights again.
JFC.
“the West’s unnecessary provoking Russia leading to the Ukraine war”
“By any metric the Biden/Harris/Walz ticket was one of the most socially extreme in American history”
i despair
To state the obvious the Democrats ran a terrible campaign, Biden should have been persuaded not to stand and bow out gracefully , then they should have had a proper run off to choose a candidate that would have wiped the floor with Trump , a Gavin Newsom (maybe with a little less baggage) type.
It's got to be more ingrained, It's not like T Rump ran any kind of clever nuanced campaign and got all the appointments and marginal calls right, he rejects things like truth, law and basic decency and people can either go with it or not, pointing to little things the other candidates do while he pisses on the process and anyone and everything seems like a get out clause to justify supporting him.
I guess if you run as the "decent" candidate option you have to be above reproach but let's have it right: If you don't mind that he's a liar, racist, rapist, serial litigator, insurrectionist, defaults on all loans and agreements, is hated by most people who were ever colleagues or friends and is disgusting at a very basic level AND you think that might all be fun it says more about the voter than the candidate. It's clear many people will suffer as a result of his leadership and I don't mean by a percentage inflation or a random stat or two.
From my chats with my American professional and personal friends in recent months (in Republican and Democrat states and with partisan voters and non) they all acknowledge who Trump is and his utter nonsense. They all have a dimmer view of him compared to 2016. But they all felt he represented a brighter future for them than Harris. That is how bad the Democrat campaign was. And the most common reason was that they felt that they were being sneered at as voters (even Democrat friends felt that was the vibe). And you can see that from social media over the past 24 hours. Referring to voters as stupid, racist, bigots etc etc is not going to win hearts and minds, it will create a siege mentality and strengthen Trump. The Brexit campaign was similar I guess. Don't listen to people fears (I don't care if they are unfounded, they are not unfounded to them) and you will see what happens.
They might say that’s the reason but I just don’t buy it.
To be clear, I agree with this:
Don't listen to people fears (I don't care if they are unfounded, they are not unfounded to them)
And not this:
The most common reason was that they felt that they were being sneered at as voters
Any decent person could never vote for Trump.
For me the only option would be Harris, unless of course you cast your vote and decide to spoil it or just not vote at all.
Voting for Trump does not make you racist, stupid, bigoted and should certainly not mean you can be abused by non Trump supporters but your views are certainly not inline with mine. I would find it difficult maintaining a close friendship with someone who voted for Trump though I suspect I don't have any friends who would consider that if they were living in the US.
It is relatively easy for us, as outsiders, to question how & why Trump was successful & why after the brief honeymoon period Harris was so lacklustre; but we only need to look back at the Brexit campaign to see how easy it is for the populists to swing it in their favour when the incumbent runs a non campaign & ignores at best & belittles at worst the concerns of a decent sized chunk of the electorate.
Given that we are living in a glasshouse perhaps we shouldn't be throwing stones.
Er. no you can point out that there were problems with the democratic campaign and still be desperately disappointed that we’re facing another trump presidency.
Respectfully, I have friends that are Republicans I have friends that are Democrats, I have friends that are Labour I have friends that are Tory. To say you would find it hard to maintain a friendship with someone who voted Trump is quite sad to me. Statistics show in the US that inter-political relationships are on the slide and this cannot be good for any of us. I don't have to agree with my friends, but I have to agree they have the right to their opinion and I also have a duty as a friend to listen to their opinions and maybe even empathise. I might be shocked to find out I am wrong one day. Trump is a frontman, an odious one to me but a front man non the less, to a set of ideals that people believe in more than they believe in the others.
So the Democrats were sneering...while the Trump campaign offered voters a positive vision of the future?
I am so out of the loop.
It’s ok, Trump was sneering at other people.
Interesting thought that the Americans will likely have had another election (if they bother to continue with such things) before our next election. Germany will likely vote again in 2025 with AFD likely to do well and Le Pen will likely challenge Macron in France in 2027. Netherlands and Italy have already elected "populist" leaders.
It does feel like as the higher educated generally better off people become more liberal, the "left behinds" across the western world are embracing "populism". Those of us who prefer a more liberal outlook better find away of addressing this trend if our view is to prevail.