I’m loving that French guy in the pool. He’s got to be the coolest of the lot. Comes out, polite wave to the crowd, shy grin, jumps in the water, gold with Olympic record. Collects medal, goes off for a lie-down, comes out a couple of hours later, another gold, another Olympic record... Not showy. No arrogance. Just living his dream.
These issues are rarely simple. The on-going problems between the IOC and IBA is likely to be part of it. The IBA doing one decision and the IOC countering that decision was never going to help. And any complex issue handled without clarity usually ends in a mess.
At the end of the day I feel sorry for both athletes. A situation that is not of their own making but at the end of the day. The Algerian wasn't brilliant before and it is not the same as Caster Semenya where races with her were ridiculous. The media are making it sound like a fella put on a dress and changed his name to Shirley before entering the boxing contest. It is not that at all. The administrators of sport need to be clear and consistent on these issues, we need less reasons for people to get angry not more.
Important too to remember Khelif isn't trans as keeps being stated on Twitter. As you say, complicated situation and it's the athletes stuck in the middle of it all who ultimately suffer.
This whole transgender issue for athletes is a load of bollox (or lack thereof).
If you are born with XX chromasomes, you are female. If born with XY chromasomes, you are male. You can have bits added or removed by plastic surgery, and wave all the rainbow flags you want, but none of that changes your biological sex, any more than my cat can become a dog.
Males generally have greater skeletal muscle mass than females, and therefore will be able to hit harder in sports like boxing. The IOC really needs to sort this out.
The argument regarding the Algerian boxer has totally spilled out into protecting women's sport. I totally agree with that, bang average men becoming top women in the same season is not on. But this is a medical anomaly that is rare and difficult to create rules around. She's not that brilliant. She's not clearing the field with every fight. Her record is not great. If she was winning every fight in 46 seconds it would be a different argument.
If it only it was that simple. People are born with XXY chromosomes (Klinefelter syndrome), and there are various other medical conditions that mean XX individuals can be men and XY individuals can be women. Of course, these are exceedingly rare - but it is categorically wrong to deny that these people exist.
Yes but the point is it's far more complicated and nuanced than certain people are making it out to be, and it should be treated sensitively out of respect to all concerned.
Read some of the commentary around it and you'd be forgiven for thinking that a bloke decided he was female one day, whacked a pair of boxing gloves on and started beating up women
Sigh ... most topics on here are more complex than they seem, but I wasn't about to write a tediously long essay, listing all the rare exceptions.
The point I was trying to make, is that anyone born male should not be permitted to compete against women in individual or team sports, under any governing body.
In the case of Imane Khelif, she was born female, but she and another Chinese boxer failed an IBF gender elegibility test last year. This suggests that they may have been taking testosterone-boosting drugs, or similar, and the question remains as to why the IOC chose to ignore the IBF ruling.
Summary: an organisation for reasons unknown made a ruling and another organisation did not follow suit - @bargepole‘s list of questions about this episode is limited to the organisation that did not follow suit.
He retweeted an explainer yesterday that was very good.
I have sympathy for the girl who quit saying she doesn't want to be hit hard in the face by someone bigger and stronger, for that reason I won't be trying to enter an Olympic boxing tournament.
I wasn't trying to be transphobic. If people want to identify and dress as a different gender, that's fine, everyone should be free to live their lives however they want.
But the point was, that you can't change your biological gender, and biological males should not compete in womens' sports.
The counterpoint being that the IBF have not made their findings known to anyone and this is a woman who has competed extensively without any issue until that IBF intervention, yet now all and sundry are questioning the poor girl’s credentials very publicly on the basis of fcuk-all
Think that sums it up pretty well, should there be different categories - probably but nobody seemed to care last week and people who should know better are writing and posting unrelated things they pretty clearly know aren't true in this case.
But the widely reported fact that Imane Khelif was born female seems to make the point you seem to want to make somewhat odd.
And as I understand it your argument is the same as the IOCs argument - they were born female, shown as female on their passport and therefore should be able to compete as female.
The whole issue of biological and sexual identity is remarkably complex and nuanced and deserves a great deal of care and sensitivity when discussed. Resorting to simplistic ‘you are what you are born as’ arguments is lazy, wilfully ignorant and disrespectful.
I wasn't trying to 'gaslight' anyone, I was merely stating a scientific fact. Most sporting governing bodies do not allow biological males to compete in womens' sports, although there is some ambiguity with the FA, which the Government are urging them to clarify.
As for the esteemed Doc seeing off people far brighter than me, my official Mensa score puts me in the top 0.03% of the population, so that seems vanishingly unlikely.
@bargepole for all your laudable attempts to avoid writing tediously long missives, to throw a Mensa score into the ring as if it is armour against mistaking the policy decisions of governing bodies for scientific fact, it’s dismal stuff.
Comments
London 2012 was a magical time wasn’t it? And you can see what the Olympics are doing for France and Paris.
I know the cost is eye watering but it does show the power of sport. At a time when division is the norm it’s nice to have a bit of unity on the TV.
I’m loving that French guy in the pool. He’s got to be the coolest of the lot. Comes out, polite wave to the crowd, shy grin, jumps in the water, gold with Olympic record. Collects medal, goes off for a lie-down, comes out a couple of hours later, another gold, another Olympic record... Not showy. No arrogance. Just living his dream.
Just been reading that there is controversy over Imane Khelif. Did these controversies only surface now or were they present during the last Olympics?
It’s certainly been a hot topic over the past few years, with that transgender swimmer competing in the women’s events until recently.
These issues are rarely simple. The on-going problems between the IOC and IBA is likely to be part of it. The IBA doing one decision and the IOC countering that decision was never going to help. And any complex issue handled without clarity usually ends in a mess.
At the end of the day I feel sorry for both athletes. A situation that is not of their own making but at the end of the day. The Algerian wasn't brilliant before and it is not the same as Caster Semenya where races with her were ridiculous. The media are making it sound like a fella put on a dress and changed his name to Shirley before entering the boxing contest. It is not that at all. The administrators of sport need to be clear and consistent on these issues, we need less reasons for people to get angry not more.
Important too to remember Khelif isn't trans as keeps being stated on Twitter. As you say, complicated situation and it's the athletes stuck in the middle of it all who ultimately suffer.
This whole transgender issue for athletes is a load of bollox (or lack thereof).
If you are born with XX chromasomes, you are female. If born with XY chromasomes, you are male. You can have bits added or removed by plastic surgery, and wave all the rainbow flags you want, but none of that changes your biological sex, any more than my cat can become a dog.
Males generally have greater skeletal muscle mass than females, and therefore will be able to hit harder in sports like boxing. The IOC really needs to sort this out.
The argument regarding the Algerian boxer has totally spilled out into protecting women's sport. I totally agree with that, bang average men becoming top women in the same season is not on. But this is a medical anomaly that is rare and difficult to create rules around. She's not that brilliant. She's not clearing the field with every fight. Her record is not great. If she was winning every fight in 46 seconds it would be a different argument.
If it only it was that simple. People are born with XXY chromosomes (Klinefelter syndrome), and there are various other medical conditions that mean XX individuals can be men and XY individuals can be women. Of course, these are exceedingly rare - but it is categorically wrong to deny that these people exist.
Yes but the point is it's far more complicated and nuanced than certain people are making it out to be, and it should be treated sensitively out of respect to all concerned.
Read some of the commentary around it and you'd be forgiven for thinking that a bloke decided he was female one day, whacked a pair of boxing gloves on and started beating up women
Interesting to see that you agree with the IOC allowing Imane Khelif to box
I’m crying about a lovely lady bouncing on a trampoline
Just saw my first ‘live’ GB gold. Quite an achievement watching American coverage.
Another good story.
London 2012 - 21 Yrs Old - Illness and Injury stopped her from competing
Rio 2016 - 25 Yrs Old - Silver
Tokyo 2020 - 30 Yrs Old - Bronze
Paris 2024 - 33 Yrs Old - Gold
33 is ancient in trampoline terms. Only two of the field of 15 were over 26
Steve Bunce has talked a lot of sense on Imane Khelif https://x.com/BeardedGenius/status/1819341190216425709
Nothing is as simple as @bargepole unfortunately.
Plus she wrote a dissertation about the sounds dinosaurs made! What a woman
I misread that as Steve Bruce and was incredibly confused as to why he was wading into this topic! But yes, very well said by Mr Bunce
Sigh ... most topics on here are more complex than they seem, but I wasn't about to write a tediously long essay, listing all the rare exceptions.
The point I was trying to make, is that anyone born male should not be permitted to compete against women in individual or team sports, under any governing body.
In the case of Imane Khelif, she was born female, but she and another Chinese boxer failed an IBF gender elegibility test last year. This suggests that they may have been taking testosterone-boosting drugs, or similar, and the question remains as to why the IOC chose to ignore the IBF ruling.
Summary: an organisation for reasons unknown made a ruling and another organisation did not follow suit - @bargepole‘s list of questions about this episode is limited to the organisation that did not follow suit.
If that was the point you were trying to make, maybe you shouldn't have gone off on your little transphobic rant like an audition for the Daily Mail.
He retweeted an explainer yesterday that was very good.
I have sympathy for the girl who quit saying she doesn't want to be hit hard in the face by someone bigger and stronger, for that reason I won't be trying to enter an Olympic boxing tournament.
I wasn't trying to be transphobic. If people want to identify and dress as a different gender, that's fine, everyone should be free to live their lives however they want.
But the point was, that you can't change your biological gender, and biological males should not compete in womens' sports.
The counterpoint being that the IBF have not made their findings known to anyone and this is a woman who has competed extensively without any issue until that IBF intervention, yet now all and sundry are questioning the poor girl’s credentials very publicly on the basis of fcuk-all
Think that sums it up pretty well, should there be different categories - probably but nobody seemed to care last week and people who should know better are writing and posting unrelated things they pretty clearly know aren't true in this case.
But the widely reported fact that Imane Khelif was born female seems to make the point you seem to want to make somewhat odd.
And as I understand it your argument is the same as the IOCs argument - they were born female, shown as female on their passport and therefore should be able to compete as female.
The whole issue of biological and sexual identity is remarkably complex and nuanced and deserves a great deal of care and sensitivity when discussed. Resorting to simplistic ‘you are what you are born as’ arguments is lazy, wilfully ignorant and disrespectful.
Which I guess is no surprise
"You can.......wave all the rainbow flags you want"
You picked the wrong person to gaslight I'm afraid. The Doc has seen off far brighter than you over the years
This is the whole point that Buncey was making. No evidence to stop her competing as a woman. It just seems some people are doubling down now.
I wasn't trying to 'gaslight' anyone, I was merely stating a scientific fact. Most sporting governing bodies do not allow biological males to compete in womens' sports, although there is some ambiguity with the FA, which the Government are urging them to clarify.
As for the esteemed Doc seeing off people far brighter than me, my official Mensa score puts me in the top 0.03% of the population, so that seems vanishingly unlikely.
But do keep posting your fantasies, Eric.
@bargepole for all your laudable attempts to avoid writing tediously long missives, to throw a Mensa score into the ring as if it is armour against mistaking the policy decisions of governing bodies for scientific fact, it’s dismal stuff.