I read a few of the comments last night, and it would seem its mainly one bloke who just won't let it go, and pretty much gets ignored by everyone else. I get the impression there isn't going to be a big uprising.
The poster of the statement was (maybe still is?) involved in the Wycombe Wanderers foundation and community scheme, so it's not completely out of nowhere with no basis
I worked with him at WWFC community scheme around 12 years ago, and he was definitely still there till around COVID as I saw him at the ground midweek in his community kit numerous times. Not sure currently, but he does have an affiliation with the club and is a good guy who's done a lot in that community to try and bring them into WWFC
He may well be a good guy but doesn't mean he represents anyone else apart from himself or that he is right and the club wrong on this issue. His gripe may well be baseless - indeed that would be my guess.
I personally don't think there's any merit in the complaint against the club, particularly now JJ is a former player and the club is owned by a different person anyway, but I do think this is an actual group which was set up through official WWFC /WWFC foundationchannels.
How many people this actually represents I don't know, but its not just one person. I know he's recently been involved in organising football events with ~100 people in the Muslim community of HW so it could be a significant number. (Not that this necessarily translates into ticket sales/ actual supporters).
I don't think ownership of the club is relevant nor JJ current employment status.
We know that JJ is Jewish. He is entitled to hold whatever views he wishes in respect of the current issues in Israel and Gaza and to express reasonable views. I have seen no evidence that he has overstepped that mark.
Reading between the lines, I am guessing that this guy, purporting to represent football supporters of muslim faith but not having been chosen by them, has demanded that the club express a political opinion in respect of the Gaza situation and apologise for or otherwise sanction JJ for his views.
Unless you can show evidence that JJ has expressed unacceptable views, (which frankly on the evidence of his conduct during his long service with the club I very much doubt), I put this very much in the non-story box.
If a group is asking for a statement from the club and is now saying they can't support the club because of a lack of one, of course the ownership/ board matters as they would set out the direction of any statement. The fact they've recently changed means the current complaint isn't even with the people who were around at the time.
JJ made some ill advised comments (IMO), but definitely nothing extreme or beyond the pale, and as you say, he's allowed an opinion.
I very much doubt that this is a one man crusade (I've seen at least 4/5 different people comment in support in various places where this has been posted), so I think you've misread the between the lines there.
I do agree it's a non story though, was just sharing as it is WWFC related
It was the fact that the ownership has changed that I don't believe matters in this case. Regardless of ownership, WWFC the entity is unchanged and the current management inherits decisions made by the previous one.
It is not clear that this is a "group" or certainly not a significantly sized "group". They suggest they are speaking on behalf of a significant number of football supporters of muslim faith but there is no reason to believe that is the case.
The statement of this guy/group reads as very extreme and self-important which leads me to the conclusion that he/they have made equally extreme demands of the club. While it is unfortunate that any actual or potential supporter of the club becomes alienated, there are sadly occasions where it is impossible to avoid with the club acting reasonably.
Fine to post but to be taken with a large dollop of salt.
Would it be an example of modern life where if you are not expressly in support of an issue you are definitely against it? JJ's comments are ones from lived experience and I personally could never comment on how one person feels when I do not have that experience.
If the guy is saying that we are going to be boycotted as we don't support Palestine then I think we are screwed on that front.
Not sure how many actually saw the tweet that attracted controversy.
It was "Imagine taking to the streets and celebrating mass murder".
Clearly there are some who attended these marches in an anti Israel position, but many, dare I say most, attended to protest against the follow up impact on Palestinians.
I would like to think that the stance taken by the club and foundation is to be non political (except where political decisions directly impact their work or objectives) & non sectarian; whilst fully complying with the law of the land; e.g. Equalities Act, S26 of the Counter Terrorism & Security Act etc.
It is important that the club captain recognises that he will be seen as the representative of the club even when he is "off duty" and he therefore needs to consider this when making public comments (i personally do not think JJs comments re the Gaza marches/marchers crossed the line).
The problem here is the broad brush strokes used to paint an entire group as one thing. From JJ's tweet itself, to the whataboutism of most of the replies to it, through to this FB post. There were protests and marches _in Israel_ about their own country's reaction to October 7th, presumably JJ doesn't think they were celebrating mass murder. What happened on October 7th was grotesque, what has happened in retaliation to that is also grotesque, to complain about only one of those two things is also grotesque.
I’ve had one or two run-ins with people who have expressed outrage at the appearance of a Palestinian flag at Cosy Corner shopping parade. Having watched the horrifying pictures on news bulletins night after night of women and children being killed and maimed in Gaza, I suggested that it might not be unreasonable to think that the person(s) displaying the flag were protesting at that, rather than showing support for Hamas.
While I agree with you that the Israeli governments actions in Israel are grotesque, it is a viewpoint held by many in Israel itself that those actions are necessary and proportionate in order to eliminate the Hamas theat. I don't agree but I respect the right of others to hold and express contrary positions. It would be very hard for anyone to view Hamas actions on 7 October to be legitimate although again acceptable for anyone who does to hold and express those opinions. Of course if they are free to express those opinions, others are free to criticise them.
I've watched all sorts of videos on it, from both sides. Both sides with history experts about who owned the land, how early on in time, etc.
There's a reason they've not sorted it out in decades and decades isn't it.
Thank goodness we get to live somewhere where the most heated debates we have on a regular basis are about whether a target man is cumbersome, whether a holding midfielder actually is one, and whether we need an ex player to rejoin every summer for happiness.
Yes, some people in Israel think that that's the right response. And believe it or not, some people in Palestine believe that Oct 7th was the right response to ongoing ethnic cleansing. There are no winners here, just tens of thousands of dead civilians.
Of course if they are free to express those opinions, others are free to criticise them.
Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying picking a side in something so horrific is grotesque.
There being a large block of religious extremists in Israel who support a genocide is not a justification and they should be called out, in the same way that supporters of Hamas themselves (not a free Palestine generally) should be.
Wiping out Hamas with force is simply not possible. Every action Israel has taken since Oct 7th has just created new Hamas supporters and soldiers in the same way that the first Iraq war gave us al-Qaeda and the second gave us Islamic State. If you grow up in a refugee camp watching your school friends get slaughtered on a regular basis, you're going to grow up wanting to fight back.
I know. I did say 'quieter for a while' not 'bring lasting peace'. I've lived in the Middle East on and off for the last ten years and I've gone from 'Israel are the bad guys' to 'every fucking one of you are the bad guys!!!' Except Oman, of course, Oman is nice.
Comments
Covid was an unusual time and a lot of money was wasted.
The second example could be fixed if there was more investment.
There is plenty of accountability in the NHS.
I read a few of the comments last night, and it would seem its mainly one bloke who just won't let it go, and pretty much gets ignored by everyone else. I get the impression there isn't going to be a big uprising.
Based on no information, I have to say that was my expectation. Non story then.
The poster of the statement was (maybe still is?) involved in the Wycombe Wanderers foundation and community scheme, so it's not completely out of nowhere with no basis
How do you reach that conclusion?
I worked with him at WWFC community scheme around 12 years ago, and he was definitely still there till around COVID as I saw him at the ground midweek in his community kit numerous times. Not sure currently, but he does have an affiliation with the club and is a good guy who's done a lot in that community to try and bring them into WWFC
He may well be a good guy but doesn't mean he represents anyone else apart from himself or that he is right and the club wrong on this issue. His gripe may well be baseless - indeed that would be my guess.
I personally don't think there's any merit in the complaint against the club, particularly now JJ is a former player and the club is owned by a different person anyway, but I do think this is an actual group which was set up through official WWFC /WWFC foundationchannels.
How many people this actually represents I don't know, but its not just one person. I know he's recently been involved in organising football events with ~100 people in the Muslim community of HW so it could be a significant number. (Not that this necessarily translates into ticket sales/ actual supporters).
I don't think ownership of the club is relevant nor JJ current employment status.
We know that JJ is Jewish. He is entitled to hold whatever views he wishes in respect of the current issues in Israel and Gaza and to express reasonable views. I have seen no evidence that he has overstepped that mark.
Reading between the lines, I am guessing that this guy, purporting to represent football supporters of muslim faith but not having been chosen by them, has demanded that the club express a political opinion in respect of the Gaza situation and apologise for or otherwise sanction JJ for his views.
Unless you can show evidence that JJ has expressed unacceptable views, (which frankly on the evidence of his conduct during his long service with the club I very much doubt), I put this very much in the non-story box.
If a group is asking for a statement from the club and is now saying they can't support the club because of a lack of one, of course the ownership/ board matters as they would set out the direction of any statement. The fact they've recently changed means the current complaint isn't even with the people who were around at the time.
JJ made some ill advised comments (IMO), but definitely nothing extreme or beyond the pale, and as you say, he's allowed an opinion.
I very much doubt that this is a one man crusade (I've seen at least 4/5 different people comment in support in various places where this has been posted), so I think you've misread the between the lines there.
I do agree it's a non story though, was just sharing as it is WWFC related
It was the fact that the ownership has changed that I don't believe matters in this case. Regardless of ownership, WWFC the entity is unchanged and the current management inherits decisions made by the previous one.
It is not clear that this is a "group" or certainly not a significantly sized "group". They suggest they are speaking on behalf of a significant number of football supporters of muslim faith but there is no reason to believe that is the case.
The statement of this guy/group reads as very extreme and self-important which leads me to the conclusion that he/they have made equally extreme demands of the club. While it is unfortunate that any actual or potential supporter of the club becomes alienated, there are sadly occasions where it is impossible to avoid with the club acting reasonably.
Fine to post but to be taken with a large dollop of salt.
Ne’er the twain shall meet, I’m afraid.
Would it be an example of modern life where if you are not expressly in support of an issue you are definitely against it? JJ's comments are ones from lived experience and I personally could never comment on how one person feels when I do not have that experience.
If the guy is saying that we are going to be boycotted as we don't support Palestine then I think we are screwed on that front.
Not sure how many actually saw the tweet that attracted controversy.
It was "Imagine taking to the streets and celebrating mass murder".
Clearly there are some who attended these marches in an anti Israel position, but many, dare I say most, attended to protest against the follow up impact on Palestinians.
Maybe also the prior decades of human rights abuses, ethnic cleansing, war crimes and apartheid too?
I would like to think that the stance taken by the club and foundation is to be non political (except where political decisions directly impact their work or objectives) & non sectarian; whilst fully complying with the law of the land; e.g. Equalities Act, S26 of the Counter Terrorism & Security Act etc.
It is important that the club captain recognises that he will be seen as the representative of the club even when he is "off duty" and he therefore needs to consider this when making public comments (i personally do not think JJs comments re the Gaza marches/marchers crossed the line).
The problem here is the broad brush strokes used to paint an entire group as one thing. From JJ's tweet itself, to the whataboutism of most of the replies to it, through to this FB post. There were protests and marches _in Israel_ about their own country's reaction to October 7th, presumably JJ doesn't think they were celebrating mass murder. What happened on October 7th was grotesque, what has happened in retaliation to that is also grotesque, to complain about only one of those two things is also grotesque.
I’ve had one or two run-ins with people who have expressed outrage at the appearance of a Palestinian flag at Cosy Corner shopping parade. Having watched the horrifying pictures on news bulletins night after night of women and children being killed and maimed in Gaza, I suggested that it might not be unreasonable to think that the person(s) displaying the flag were protesting at that, rather than showing support for Hamas.
I actually disagree there @drcongo .
While I agree with you that the Israeli governments actions in Israel are grotesque, it is a viewpoint held by many in Israel itself that those actions are necessary and proportionate in order to eliminate the Hamas theat. I don't agree but I respect the right of others to hold and express contrary positions. It would be very hard for anyone to view Hamas actions on 7 October to be legitimate although again acceptable for anyone who does to hold and express those opinions. Of course if they are free to express those opinions, others are free to criticise them.
I've watched all sorts of videos on it, from both sides. Both sides with history experts about who owned the land, how early on in time, etc.
There's a reason they've not sorted it out in decades and decades isn't it.
Thank goodness we get to live somewhere where the most heated debates we have on a regular basis are about whether a target man is cumbersome, whether a holding midfielder actually is one, and whether we need an ex player to rejoin every summer for happiness.
Yes, some people in Israel think that that's the right response. And believe it or not, some people in Palestine believe that Oct 7th was the right response to ongoing ethnic cleansing. There are no winners here, just tens of thousands of dead civilians.
Of course if they are free to express those opinions, others are free to criticise them.
Yes, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying picking a side in something so horrific is grotesque.
Yes, we're very lucky to live in the colonial power that actually caused all this shit in the first place.
There being a large block of religious extremists in Israel who support a genocide is not a justification and they should be called out, in the same way that supporters of Hamas themselves (not a free Palestine generally) should be.
There will never be peace in the Middle East but wiping out Hamas would make things a bit quieter for a while.
If there was a way of doing that without killing 10,000s of innocents then this would be true.
The reality is it isn't, so the attempt to do so is simply creating many many more fervent anti-israel people for generations to come.
Wiping out Hamas with force is simply not possible. Every action Israel has taken since Oct 7th has just created new Hamas supporters and soldiers in the same way that the first Iraq war gave us al-Qaeda and the second gave us Islamic State. If you grow up in a refugee camp watching your school friends get slaughtered on a regular basis, you're going to grow up wanting to fight back.
This is well worth a read btw: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/4/10/how-britain-destroyed-the-palestinian-homeland
I know. I did say 'quieter for a while' not 'bring lasting peace'. I've lived in the Middle East on and off for the last ten years and I've gone from 'Israel are the bad guys' to 'every fucking one of you are the bad guys!!!' Except Oman, of course, Oman is nice.
What should Israel do?
Go nuclear. There'll be moans from the usual suspects but eventually it'll all die down.