I shouldn’t be surprised, obviously, but the super bug is now infesting political debate, with recurring references to a Labour super majority. To his credit, James O’Brien has banned its use on his phone in programme.
Earlier in this thread the 1945 election was mentioned in which Wycombe returned a Labour MP. I was asked if I had voted to turn him out in 1951 and I didn't remember voting then as I was doing my National Service for two years. I find that the voting age didn't move to 18 until 1969 so I would not have been able to vote in 1951, although old enough to serve in the Forces. 395 National Servicemen were killed in action in the Korean War and Malaysia and Kenya. Now there is a suggestion to bring the voting age down further to 16 which is bound to stir up a big debate.
‘Super’-majority is a meaningless term. If you have a well disciplined party and a clear plan for government, a majority of 30 gives you as much power as a majority of 300.
On the voting age debate, I’ve always felt that if you’re old enough to pay tax, you’re old enough to get a vote on how it’s spent, and therefore 16 year olds should get a vote. There’s an awful lot of people of all ages who have no idea what a politician is, so let’s not pretend that’s limited solely to the younger age bracket
I agree age ain't nothing but a number, said a pop song. IQ is the number where it should be raised. We are now at the stage where manifestos have been launched and so parties are able to promise anything to anyone knowing full well they can backtrack on the 5th of July as it wasn't a manifesto promise it was an ambition. Not picking on anyone but Ashworth this morning with his 650000 new jobs in the clean energy / manufacturing sector. All based upon technologies that don't exist or barely exist in sectors that cannot be driven (ie clean energy steel where you can get an electric blast furnace you just need an incredible amount of power to do it). We are years away from these jobs being a reality but (some) voters will genuinely believe that come the end of July they could part of that revolution. And there will be plenty more of where that comes from in the next 3 weeks. To turn this country around into a manufacturing base will take generations of renewal in infrastructure, education, banking, planning law, etc etc and all the time other countries will remain a generation ahead of us.
The voice of reality, @TheAndyGrahamFanClub. And such arguments can no doubt be applied to the Big Ideas (if any, examples welcome) of pretty well any of the other main parties so it shouldn’t deter us from registering our total dissatisfaction (can’t think of a publishable stronger term!) with the present incumbents.
There was a caller on James O’Brien’s show this morning - Mike in Chaponne (?) in France - who referred to something to do with Deform UK voters in the political thread/section of his football club forum. In response, he’d posted a link to a video titled Led by Donkeys, featuring Farage and, as O’Brien was characteristically quick to point out, himself. I don’t think that has appeared on the Gasroom but I’ll probably look for it on YouTube later.
Any comments in the meantime would be greatly appreciated.
Incredible. The man is undeniably and dangerously charismatic and politically astute (up to a point) but honestly…..
A family member (who shall be nameless) turned up yesterday wearing a T shirt with a Hebrew inscription. I’ve advised them not to wear it if they get anywhere near their preferred political leader.
I find the level of stupid to be incredibly strong amongst a vast swathe of the electorate as well as the lobby fodder that most parties have put forward as candidates.
This is particularly noticeable on X especially amongst those who self identify as Reform supporters or candidates.
Most do not or cannot understand that:
a) Reform is NOT a party in the conventional sense but a private limited company owned by Farage & Tice where you are making a donation to their bank account rather than purchasing a membership.
b) Farage is a member of the establishment/elite, went to public school, was a commodities trader etc. he is not some cheeky chappy down the pub or your mate.
c) Our problems are not caused by asylum seekers or most migrants (the exception being Eastern European/Russian gangsters using the UK property market to launder their money - but that's ok as they are "investing in the UK & also paid Farage & Johnson lot's of money); it is the rich & the gross inequality in the distribution of wealth.
d) National economics is not like your household budget (thank Thatcher for that gem of stupidity), you cannot print money, control interest rates etc.
e) State debt/borrowing isn't a bad thing; ask the Tories as they more than tripled our debt in 14 years...
f) The UK is suffering a crisis of corporate greed, unaccountability & failure of governance.
g) More than most politicians, the Tories have lined their & their mates pockets at our expense
I'm a huge fan of aspirational ideas, we have to start somewhere as you rightly say. But deliverables and strive for sadly need to be pointed out to the broader voter. But we live in a society of immediate gratification, the Amazon effect, so telling someone that there can be 650000 new jobs in the green economy within 10 years will win few votes. Missing out the time element of that aspiration might win votes but the flip side is that in a year's time some voters will say 'what happened to the jobs, you can't trust any politicians'.
We are a long way from trusting politicians sadly so I guess we are just carrying on down the same path.
As for Farage I have little to add. All the evidence is out there in the public domain. I would like to think that his popularity is down to weakness in others and people seeing him as nothing like the status quo. But we thought that about Corbyn.
I agree with what you say but we do have to start somewhere and deliverables and timescales are important to lay out for the recipients. Highlighting the ‘do nothing’ position would help and in my opinion, that would be much worse.
More importantly there will be a lengthy transition and telling the truth regarding timescales is imperative. We all know that such big projects will face delays and difficulties but as long as the people (the stakeholders), are kept up to pace, I believe we can get there. We have certainly learnt lessons from the Tories in how not to run major projects (HS2).
We cannot be dependant on Russians etc to supply our basic needs.
We need to educate people that to overhaul pretty much every aspect of our country’s infrastructure takes years and therefore promises of change and reform will take years too. People might be more inclined to support change if they comprehended it.
Oh and wouldn’t cross party support on ANY issue be lovely and mature.
Cross party support would be a very mature and good thing to see but I very much doubt that it will happen in my lifetime. I really detest seeing politicians sinking to the depths just to discredit their opposition, even if they actually know that what is being proposed would benefit the people of our country.
In the toxic world of bi-partisan politics one party could come up with an idea that would solve an issue and others would decry and undermine it as it’s not THEIR idea. And I think this more than anything turns young people off politics.
Even on specific, potentially controversial issues such as HS2, rejoining the EU, or the death penalty there is consensus between the two main parties.
Thinking bigger picture, in terms of ideology they both support the status quo, liberal capitalism, and the model of economic growth forever.
There is no extreme difference between the parties - intentionally on behalf of Labour. They are fighting the election on competence rather than policy.
In the last couple of days before Parliament was dissolved, the Regulations bringing this into effect were passed, so whoever is in power on 5 July will be able to continue the good work.
Comments
I shouldn’t be surprised, obviously, but the super bug is now infesting political debate, with recurring references to a Labour super majority. To his credit, James O’Brien has banned its use on his phone in programme.
Earlier in this thread the 1945 election was mentioned in which Wycombe returned a Labour MP. I was asked if I had voted to turn him out in 1951 and I didn't remember voting then as I was doing my National Service for two years. I find that the voting age didn't move to 18 until 1969 so I would not have been able to vote in 1951, although old enough to serve in the Forces. 395 National Servicemen were killed in action in the Korean War and Malaysia and Kenya. Now there is a suggestion to bring the voting age down further to 16 which is bound to stir up a big debate.
If anything the voting age should be raised not lowered.
‘Super’-majority is a meaningless term. If you have a well disciplined party and a clear plan for government, a majority of 30 gives you as much power as a majority of 300.
Oh I can’t wait for when the manifesto’s are geared to 16 year olds….
I’m fully on board with lowing the voting age. I have a 16 year old and she’s more politically aware than the vast majority of those of voting age.
You’d welcome a moove in that direction.
Hope I’ve beaten your edit!
Even after your post it took me a while to spot my typo.
As in the cattle are lowing, the baby awakes.
On the voting age debate, I’ve always felt that if you’re old enough to pay tax, you’re old enough to get a vote on how it’s spent, and therefore 16 year olds should get a vote. There’s an awful lot of people of all ages who have no idea what a politician is, so let’s not pretend that’s limited solely to the younger age bracket
I agree age ain't nothing but a number, said a pop song. IQ is the number where it should be raised. We are now at the stage where manifestos have been launched and so parties are able to promise anything to anyone knowing full well they can backtrack on the 5th of July as it wasn't a manifesto promise it was an ambition. Not picking on anyone but Ashworth this morning with his 650000 new jobs in the clean energy / manufacturing sector. All based upon technologies that don't exist or barely exist in sectors that cannot be driven (ie clean energy steel where you can get an electric blast furnace you just need an incredible amount of power to do it). We are years away from these jobs being a reality but (some) voters will genuinely believe that come the end of July they could part of that revolution. And there will be plenty more of where that comes from in the next 3 weeks. To turn this country around into a manufacturing base will take generations of renewal in infrastructure, education, banking, planning law, etc etc and all the time other countries will remain a generation ahead of us.
But you have to start somewhere.
The voice of reality, @TheAndyGrahamFanClub. And such arguments can no doubt be applied to the Big Ideas (if any, examples welcome) of pretty well any of the other main parties so it shouldn’t deter us from registering our total dissatisfaction (can’t think of a publishable stronger term!) with the present incumbents.
There was a caller on James O’Brien’s show this morning - Mike in Chaponne (?) in France - who referred to something to do with Deform UK voters in the political thread/section of his football club forum. In response, he’d posted a link to a video titled Led by Donkeys, featuring Farage and, as O’Brien was characteristically quick to point out, himself. I don’t think that has appeared on the Gasroom but I’ll probably look for it on YouTube later.
Any comments in the meantime would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfyiSk8Rjc8
I imagine it was this video. Led By Donkeys make lots of excellent videos.
Incredible. The man is undeniably and dangerously charismatic and politically astute (up to a point) but honestly…..
A family member (who shall be nameless) turned up yesterday wearing a T shirt with a Hebrew inscription. I’ve advised them not to wear it if they get anywhere near their preferred political leader.
Is it me?
I find the level of stupid to be incredibly strong amongst a vast swathe of the electorate as well as the lobby fodder that most parties have put forward as candidates.
This is particularly noticeable on X especially amongst those who self identify as Reform supporters or candidates.
Most do not or cannot understand that:
a) Reform is NOT a party in the conventional sense but a private limited company owned by Farage & Tice where you are making a donation to their bank account rather than purchasing a membership.
b) Farage is a member of the establishment/elite, went to public school, was a commodities trader etc. he is not some cheeky chappy down the pub or your mate.
c) Our problems are not caused by asylum seekers or most migrants (the exception being Eastern European/Russian gangsters using the UK property market to launder their money - but that's ok as they are "investing in the UK & also paid Farage & Johnson lot's of money); it is the rich & the gross inequality in the distribution of wealth.
d) National economics is not like your household budget (thank Thatcher for that gem of stupidity), you cannot print money, control interest rates etc.
e) State debt/borrowing isn't a bad thing; ask the Tories as they more than tripled our debt in 14 years...
f) The UK is suffering a crisis of corporate greed, unaccountability & failure of governance.
g) More than most politicians, the Tories have lined their & their mates pockets at our expense
I'm a huge fan of aspirational ideas, we have to start somewhere as you rightly say. But deliverables and strive for sadly need to be pointed out to the broader voter. But we live in a society of immediate gratification, the Amazon effect, so telling someone that there can be 650000 new jobs in the green economy within 10 years will win few votes. Missing out the time element of that aspiration might win votes but the flip side is that in a year's time some voters will say 'what happened to the jobs, you can't trust any politicians'.
We are a long way from trusting politicians sadly so I guess we are just carrying on down the same path.
As for Farage I have little to add. All the evidence is out there in the public domain. I would like to think that his popularity is down to weakness in others and people seeing him as nothing like the status quo. But we thought that about Corbyn.
I agree with what you say but we do have to start somewhere and deliverables and timescales are important to lay out for the recipients. Highlighting the ‘do nothing’ position would help and in my opinion, that would be much worse.
More importantly there will be a lengthy transition and telling the truth regarding timescales is imperative. We all know that such big projects will face delays and difficulties but as long as the people (the stakeholders), are kept up to pace, I believe we can get there. We have certainly learnt lessons from the Tories in how not to run major projects (HS2).
We cannot be dependant on Russians etc to supply our basic needs.
We need to educate people that to overhaul pretty much every aspect of our country’s infrastructure takes years and therefore promises of change and reform will take years too. People might be more inclined to support change if they comprehended it.
Oh and wouldn’t cross party support on ANY issue be lovely and mature.
Cross party support would be a very mature and good thing to see but I very much doubt that it will happen in my lifetime. I really detest seeing politicians sinking to the depths just to discredit their opposition, even if they actually know that what is being proposed would benefit the people of our country.
There is cross party support for most things.
In the toxic world of bi-partisan politics one party could come up with an idea that would solve an issue and others would decry and undermine it as it’s not THEIR idea. And I think this more than anything turns young people off politics.
Our parliament is set up to operate like this. The opposition literally have to oppose!
Which means it is totally broken.
Quite, but it’s the only one we’ve got!
One possible twist in this election cycle could see Tories and UKIP calling for PR.
I voted for it back in 2012 but Cameron did the dirty on the Lib Dems, chose not to whip it and here we are.
Even on specific, potentially controversial issues such as HS2, rejoining the EU, or the death penalty there is consensus between the two main parties.
Thinking bigger picture, in terms of ideology they both support the status quo, liberal capitalism, and the model of economic growth forever.
There is no extreme difference between the parties - intentionally on behalf of Labour. They are fighting the election on competence rather than policy.
This issue, which I posted about some time ago, had and still has cross party support: Beating the Parking Scammers: Your Help Requested (gasroom.org)
In the last couple of days before Parliament was dissolved, the Regulations bringing this into effect were passed, so whoever is in power on 5 July will be able to continue the good work.
Unless you're Keir Starmer of course, the man who wouldn't even call for an inquiry into Michelle Mone's yacht.
Anyone else on here got family members planning to vote for Deform UK ?