On point a - this is the million dollar question isn't it? Does Blooms get given "at least till the end of the season at minimum" if we are pulled into a genuine relegation fight?
Still trying to come to terms with last night. Need to get this off my chest! Apologies in advance for the dissertation.
An improved performance over the 90 minutes, three or four decent attacks but realistically zero goal threat and still average at best.
Defensively, we looked so much more assured and I think the agility of Pattenden, Forino and Boyes helps to protect Low and Tafa more. I don't see how we accomodate Keogh with the current other defenders we have. He needs to be surrounded by pace/agile players and we don't have that luxury.
Midfield was miles better defensively with Breckin playing alongside Scowen. However, offensively we created only one or two half chances for the first 80 minutes. Maybe two or three in last 10. It's been the same for weeks and is a real worry.
I think there is a decent footballer in Dale Taylor but I cannot work out what is best attribute is. He had a chance in the first half (I think) where he made an intelligent run, with just one defender to the side of him and a decent run at goal. A poor touch, followed by a lack of pace and the chance was gone. 3 goals in 20 appearances. We create very little for him but he also creates very little on his own. Lyle Taylor looked lively and like he might create something out of nothing.
We have a number of decent individuals but they all seem to play in a similar role. A plethora of centre backs and wide players but we're crying out for a centre forward and proper center midfielders in this system.
What is really noticeable is that when we drop into a back five, opposition have two men wide and one central. So it's 5 against 3 and neither of the wide centre backs are marking anyone. They then push a player into the gap between our wing back and one of the two midfielders. The wing back and wide centre back then start pointing at the player and the space to cover the oppo player. Neither go out to cover so that player just drives forward to the edge of our box. Breckin/Scowen eventually get across but that then leaves a gaping hole centrally for another of their players to walk into.
With a back four, you have 4 v 3 and then an extra midfielder/winger to cover that space and the player going into it. How our management team cannot see this is beyond me. It's so frustrating to watch it happening time and time again.
Additionally, there is such a huge gap between the defence/Scowen and the attackers, that we struggle to move from front to back but equally when we pump it long, it's easy for the opposition to get right back on top of us because our back three are so deep. They rarely get to the semi circle let alone the half way line. Under Ainsworth, we'd hit the ball long and then press OR we'd have two banks of four and sit a bit deeper and soak up pressure. We currently do neither, which is causing massive issues both in defence and attack.
Max was unprofessional, equally, that is given as a free kick 99.9% of the time. I would now expect players to be able to give a slight push to the keeper in the hope he falls over and drops the ball and no free kick is awarded for the rest of the season by all referees in all games. We ask for consistency, so now we know you can push the keeper lightly when he has the ball in his hands and if he drops it you can score without being penalised. Let's start slightly pushing the oppo keeper and see what happens. I think I know what will happen.
Until Potts and Vokes are back, I cannot see this system working. If they are out for another 6-8 weeks then we are in a relegation dog fight. It's time to do something different.
I would argue Pattenden is now first choice RWB. Offers more going forwards than Grimmer (I’d still have Grimmer as RCB), better defensively than McCarthy and far less erratic than KVY.
Viewed in isolation that might be a foul 99% of the time, but the ref was letting stuff like that go all game.
There was one incident late in 2nd half where Pattenden got his body in front of the attacker and then went down under the slightest contact which is normally always a foul but ref waved play on. He then got up, pressured the striker who did the exact same and went down softly and again ref again gave no foul.
Numerous other possible 50-50 fouls throughout the game weren't given so at least he was consistent.
Max regularly flops around when jostling with a striker rushing to get the ball out the net, hopefully this teaches him a valuable lesson.
I take that as a question. My answer - definitely.
As @Jonny says, Grimmer is at his best as the right sided centre back, KVY in his few appearances showed glimpses of skill but little else and Wheeler is best placed well forward towards the right touchline where his height and heading ability can be very effective.
Pattenden has played reasonably well. I don't think the management would play him if Grimmer, McCarthy and Vincent-Young were all fit or if even one of them was fully fit, I think he'd be benched.
I like Jasper, does the simple things well and works extremely hard.
I thought it was incredible how much potentially dangerous physical stuff Darren Drysdale let go. Jack Grimmer remarked on commentary that he’d always rated him because he let games flow and it was never “all about him”.
I agree with this. There were so many fouls by both teams that went unpunished. We all want to see the game flow but not at the expense of ignoring obvious offences.
I agree with you @Croider and from all of the clips that I've seen, I believe that Max (and prob the team) had been given warnings by the referee. As an ex-ref myself, I know that the last 10-15 mins of the games is the most stressful and that they often run out of patience quite quickly. Our players need to switch on and realise that whatever is wasted, is just being added on and then some this season and it's not like last season. Also when a player goes off, they are off for 30 seconds (at least) meaning we are down to 10 men at a point where our players are tired and just want the game to be over.
Do we also need to be concerned about our discipline as a team? As a team, we have collected 51 yellow cards after 24 games (including FA, League Cups and BSM Trophy). Max is only 1 yellow card away from a 1 match ban! I don't think I can ever recall a goalkeeper getting enough yellows for a game suspension?! I thought our timewasting and slowing down tactics went when GA left the building, why are we going back to those tactics?! There have been SO many times where we have LOST points playing this way and we keep making the same mistakes again and again!
With some much analyse going on these days, surely all teams know what "type" of referee they are going to get. There are some who are "up and coming" and will apply the letter of the law to the letter and there are some more experienced officials who will allow more challenges to go in and try to let things flow. Surely the week before a game, in training should also consider this?
@micra "Technically", he started the season as 5th choice right back - here's why: McCarthy's been injured since pre-season (1), Grimmer was on the right of a three on the opening day (2), (later becoming injured), so KVY played RWB (3), until he was injured, and replaced by Wheeler (4). When Wheeler was ill, and all the other three were all injured at the same time, Pattenden stepped in (5).
He has done wonderfully well, and improved significantly during his time in the side.
The good doctor posted a gif that kind of sums up what happened last night, if you feck about you deal with the consequences. The poster I was replying to was talking about the Tesco ketchup incident where someone else also caught up with the consequences of their actions.
I know forums tend towards extreme positions especially when results are not great but I do find the assault by some on Max a bit OTT. By common consent he has been one of the best players on the team for the last 18 months or so. He has made a couple of mistakes in recent games which I am sure he is well aware of and not happy about. We have all seen the GK delay picking up the ball trick to waste a few seconds at the end if a game a million times before ' Last night there was a variation as contact was made and then the ball squirmed out of his hands - a freak incident.
Max has earned and deserves our support through difficult times not our brickbats. Actually normally would perhaps make sense to give the reserve the cup game but in these circumstances, I would like to think Matt would have a quiet chat with Max, see how he is feeling and see whether Max would prefer a week off or to play on Saturday. If the latter his past performances mean he deserves the full support of whatever crowd decides to attend the game.
What is given when a player is judged to have dived?players booked and Free kick awarded isnt it?
so going on that bases if a goalkeeper is judged to have dived it stands to reasons Free kick is granted. Now, I am a little hazzy of where an indirect free kick is awarded over a penalty kick when certain offences occur in the penalty box hence the reason I wrote “penalty/indirect free kick”. Alternatively, the ref can play advantage because max dropped the ball. Which he did.
But you keep being you and filter out the bits you don’t want to read so you can score points. You can be very childish for a man of senior years, can’t you?
You mean the rule about a free kick being awarded if a player dives rule? That one?
Now I wasn’t 100% sure at the time of posting if it would be an indirect free kick or a “normal free kick” (which would result in a pen within the penalty area) which is why I also added the indirect free kick bit. 👍
I asked a simple question: under which law could a penalty have been awarded in the incident last night? The answer is there is no law that states it could have been a penalty. If you find that to be childish that’s your problem.
Theoretically yes if the referee considered it to have been simulation but he awarded a goal so the question is irrelevant.
Incidentally, here is Law 12 and I would maintain that the Barnsley player committed two of these offences:
‘A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
charges
jumps at
kicks or attempts to kick
pushes
strikes or attempts to strike (including head-butt)
And what comes about the "/" bit Alan? In the pen area, if a direct freekick is awarded, it becomes a pen. If its an indirect freekick it isn't. I wasn't 100% sure at the time of posting if it was direct, or indirect, so I gave both options as I'm not a fucking referee.
You said you wouldn’t have had any qualms if the referee had booked Max and awarded an indirect fk/penalty but he had awarded a goal. I wish he had awarded them a free kick because then we might have earned a point.
He would also been in his right, if Cosgrove had a brain fart or max recovered the ball, to call the play back to the offence and award an indirect freekick. But he choose to play advantage, allow the game to continue and awarded the resulting Goal. 100% Correctly.
Comments
On point a - this is the million dollar question isn't it? Does Blooms get given "at least till the end of the season at minimum" if we are pulled into a genuine relegation fight?
Under which law of the game could the referee have awarded a penalty for the incident?
Still trying to come to terms with last night. Need to get this off my chest! Apologies in advance for the dissertation.
An improved performance over the 90 minutes, three or four decent attacks but realistically zero goal threat and still average at best.
Defensively, we looked so much more assured and I think the agility of Pattenden, Forino and Boyes helps to protect Low and Tafa more. I don't see how we accomodate Keogh with the current other defenders we have. He needs to be surrounded by pace/agile players and we don't have that luxury.
Midfield was miles better defensively with Breckin playing alongside Scowen. However, offensively we created only one or two half chances for the first 80 minutes. Maybe two or three in last 10. It's been the same for weeks and is a real worry.
I think there is a decent footballer in Dale Taylor but I cannot work out what is best attribute is. He had a chance in the first half (I think) where he made an intelligent run, with just one defender to the side of him and a decent run at goal. A poor touch, followed by a lack of pace and the chance was gone. 3 goals in 20 appearances. We create very little for him but he also creates very little on his own. Lyle Taylor looked lively and like he might create something out of nothing.
We have a number of decent individuals but they all seem to play in a similar role. A plethora of centre backs and wide players but we're crying out for a centre forward and proper center midfielders in this system.
What is really noticeable is that when we drop into a back five, opposition have two men wide and one central. So it's 5 against 3 and neither of the wide centre backs are marking anyone. They then push a player into the gap between our wing back and one of the two midfielders. The wing back and wide centre back then start pointing at the player and the space to cover the oppo player. Neither go out to cover so that player just drives forward to the edge of our box. Breckin/Scowen eventually get across but that then leaves a gaping hole centrally for another of their players to walk into.
With a back four, you have 4 v 3 and then an extra midfielder/winger to cover that space and the player going into it. How our management team cannot see this is beyond me. It's so frustrating to watch it happening time and time again.
Additionally, there is such a huge gap between the defence/Scowen and the attackers, that we struggle to move from front to back but equally when we pump it long, it's easy for the opposition to get right back on top of us because our back three are so deep. They rarely get to the semi circle let alone the half way line. Under Ainsworth, we'd hit the ball long and then press OR we'd have two banks of four and sit a bit deeper and soak up pressure. We currently do neither, which is causing massive issues both in defence and attack.
Max was unprofessional, equally, that is given as a free kick 99.9% of the time. I would now expect players to be able to give a slight push to the keeper in the hope he falls over and drops the ball and no free kick is awarded for the rest of the season by all referees in all games. We ask for consistency, so now we know you can push the keeper lightly when he has the ball in his hands and if he drops it you can score without being penalised. Let's start slightly pushing the oppo keeper and see what happens. I think I know what will happen.
Until Potts and Vokes are back, I cannot see this system working. If they are out for another 6-8 weeks then we are in a relegation dog fight. It's time to do something different.
JJ instead of the suspended Boyes, surely?
Leave the dependable, sensible, Scowenesque Jasper alone !!! I’m sure that’s what you meant.
Clarification about suspensions.
Not sure what you mean by “technically” in this context. But to suggest that he’s fourth in line is outrageous.
He was probably behind KVY, McCarthy, Grimmer and maybe Wheels, not sure he would be now if they were all available.
Would he be ahead of Vincent-Young, McCarthy, Grimmer if they were all fit!!!
I would argue Pattenden is now first choice RWB. Offers more going forwards than Grimmer (I’d still have Grimmer as RCB), better defensively than McCarthy and far less erratic than KVY.
Viewed in isolation that might be a foul 99% of the time, but the ref was letting stuff like that go all game.
There was one incident late in 2nd half where Pattenden got his body in front of the attacker and then went down under the slightest contact which is normally always a foul but ref waved play on. He then got up, pressured the striker who did the exact same and went down softly and again ref again gave no foul.
Numerous other possible 50-50 fouls throughout the game weren't given so at least he was consistent.
Max regularly flops around when jostling with a striker rushing to get the ball out the net, hopefully this teaches him a valuable lesson.
Are you speaking some kind of code @StrongestTeam ?
Careful putting your arm around him, he might collapse on the spot and hurt something.
I take that as a question. My answer - definitely.
As @Jonny says, Grimmer is at his best as the right sided centre back, KVY in his few appearances showed glimpses of skill but little else and Wheeler is best placed well forward towards the right touchline where his height and heading ability can be very effective.
Pattenden has played reasonably well. I don't think the management would play him if Grimmer, McCarthy and Vincent-Young were all fit or if even one of them was fully fit, I think he'd be benched.
I like Jasper, does the simple things well and works extremely hard.
I thought it was incredible how much potentially dangerous physical stuff Darren Drysdale let go. Jack Grimmer remarked on commentary that he’d always rated him because he let games flow and it was never “all about him”.
I agree with this. There were so many fouls by both teams that went unpunished. We all want to see the game flow but not at the expense of ignoring obvious offences.
I agree with you @Croider and from all of the clips that I've seen, I believe that Max (and prob the team) had been given warnings by the referee. As an ex-ref myself, I know that the last 10-15 mins of the games is the most stressful and that they often run out of patience quite quickly. Our players need to switch on and realise that whatever is wasted, is just being added on and then some this season and it's not like last season. Also when a player goes off, they are off for 30 seconds (at least) meaning we are down to 10 men at a point where our players are tired and just want the game to be over.
Do we also need to be concerned about our discipline as a team? As a team, we have collected 51 yellow cards after 24 games (including FA, League Cups and BSM Trophy). Max is only 1 yellow card away from a 1 match ban! I don't think I can ever recall a goalkeeper getting enough yellows for a game suspension?! I thought our timewasting and slowing down tactics went when GA left the building, why are we going back to those tactics?! There have been SO many times where we have LOST points playing this way and we keep making the same mistakes again and again!
With some much analyse going on these days, surely all teams know what "type" of referee they are going to get. There are some who are "up and coming" and will apply the letter of the law to the letter and there are some more experienced officials who will allow more challenges to go in and try to let things flow. Surely the week before a game, in training should also consider this?
@micra "Technically", he started the season as 5th choice right back - here's why: McCarthy's been injured since pre-season (1), Grimmer was on the right of a three on the opening day (2), (later becoming injured), so KVY played RWB (3), until he was injured, and replaced by Wheeler (4). When Wheeler was ill, and all the other three were all injured at the same time, Pattenden stepped in (5).
He has done wonderfully well, and improved significantly during his time in the side.
The good doctor posted a gif that kind of sums up what happened last night, if you feck about you deal with the consequences. The poster I was replying to was talking about the Tesco ketchup incident where someone else also caught up with the consequences of their actions.
I know forums tend towards extreme positions especially when results are not great but I do find the assault by some on Max a bit OTT. By common consent he has been one of the best players on the team for the last 18 months or so. He has made a couple of mistakes in recent games which I am sure he is well aware of and not happy about. We have all seen the GK delay picking up the ball trick to waste a few seconds at the end if a game a million times before ' Last night there was a variation as contact was made and then the ball squirmed out of his hands - a freak incident.
Max has earned and deserves our support through difficult times not our brickbats. Actually normally would perhaps make sense to give the reserve the cup game but in these circumstances, I would like to think Matt would have a quiet chat with Max, see how he is feeling and see whether Max would prefer a week off or to play on Saturday. If the latter his past performances mean he deserves the full support of whatever crowd decides to attend the game.
.
What is given when a player is judged to have dived?players booked and Free kick awarded isnt it?
so going on that bases if a goalkeeper is judged to have dived it stands to reasons Free kick is granted. Now, I am a little hazzy of where an indirect free kick is awarded over a penalty kick when certain offences occur in the penalty box hence the reason I wrote “penalty/indirect free kick”. Alternatively, the ref can play advantage because max dropped the ball. Which he did.
But you keep being you and filter out the bits you don’t want to read so you can score points. You can be very childish for a man of senior years, can’t you?
You mean the rule about a free kick being awarded if a player dives rule? That one?
Now I wasn’t 100% sure at the time of posting if it would be an indirect free kick or a “normal free kick” (which would result in a pen within the penalty area) which is why I also added the indirect free kick bit. 👍
I asked a simple question: under which law could a penalty have been awarded in the incident last night? The answer is there is no law that states it could have been a penalty. If you find that to be childish that’s your problem.
Could it have been an indirect free kick? (the bit you ignored)
Theoretically yes if the referee considered it to have been simulation but he awarded a goal so the question is irrelevant.
Incidentally, here is Law 12 and I would maintain that the Barnsley player committed two of these offences:
‘A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
And what comes about the "/" bit Alan? In the pen area, if a direct freekick is awarded, it becomes a pen. If its an indirect freekick it isn't. I wasn't 100% sure at the time of posting if it was direct, or indirect, so I gave both options as I'm not a fucking referee.
Sometimes, Al, you have to stop digging.
It wasn’t careless, reckless or excessive force.
Max chose to fall over.
You said you wouldn’t have had any qualms if the referee had booked Max and awarded an indirect fk/penalty but he had awarded a goal. I wish he had awarded them a free kick because then we might have earned a point.
He would also been in his right, if Cosgrove had a brain fart or max recovered the ball, to call the play back to the offence and award an indirect freekick. But he choose to play advantage, allow the game to continue and awarded the resulting Goal. 100% Correctly.