I would be appalled if Greenwood played for us. What message would it send to the clubs ladies team? Luke McCormack I would prefer not to wear our shirt, but he didn't intentionally go out to kill someone, so I could just about live with that.
Your other example of a sex offender having served 3 years (must have been a serious offence for that term) then no, I would not want him anywhere near Adams Park.
In my opinion, convicted sex offenders should never be allowed into private homes unless they are accompanied at all times by a responsible fellow tradesman.
Fair enough @mooneyman . It’s a difficult and emotive issue how society should deal with people who have in the past committed horrible offences. An issue perhaps we all find difficult to face up to. I disagree with you but respect your honest opinion.
I am aware my view on this matter may not sync with many others but have tried to explain rationally where I am coming from. Honestly though bit sick of the abuse so I’ll leave it there.
How do you think society rehabilitates those who abuse? I mean, once they have served their time, they should surely expect to walk back into their former life no questions asked right? I’m not saying that I have the answers but this is clearly the most pressing question. I am sure that folk will understand how considered a line of reasoning this is.
A few years ago, I and some others set up a company offering services to motorists. One of the founder members turned out to have been a convicted sex offender, who had been given an 8 year sentence for grooming two 14 year old girls, of which he served 4 years 3 months, and was then released on licence. He had changed his name by deed poll, but the details of his conviction were available in the online archives of his local rag.
One of his victims, now aged 21, was back with him as his live in partner, so some similarity to the Greenwood saga - a case of Stockholm Syndrome, perhaps.
One of our competitors found out about all this, and started posting stuff online. This was damaging the reputation of our company, and we had to sever all ties, and remove his name from the Companies House records. His neighbours became aware of who he was, and started harassing him to the point where the Police arranged for him to move to a different town, 150 miles away. Two years ago, he contracted incurable cancer, and died, poetic justice some might say.
Surely his career in England is over ? I can't see another English team taking him because of the backlash they will rightly get. He has to move abroad, I assume the Saudis don't really care about that sort of stuff as they don't many things tbh !
What I've found is really depressing though, on Twitter. Pretty much all English Utd fans agree with the outcome, said it had to happen. But the majority of their " foreign" fans are appalled at the club, sending them abuse for ruining "their boy" and putting all the blame on the partner who should've just kept quiet. Some truly awful stuff on there.
@HolmerBlue - The Saudis are the easy target, let's all point the finger at the shocking attitudes that they have to women, but the fact is that the professional footballing community as a whole doesn't really concern itself with morals. The players are happy to go there, the owners of our clubs are happy to sell out to them, FIFA are happy for them to host the subset of events that their society will tolerate and it's not just football - the same goes for golf and boxing. I presume that tennis will follow at some point, can't think of any other sports that have the global stature that they would wish to buy, perhaps the Olympics although I suspect not given how integral the female participation has become. The point though is that it is not just the Saudis or the region as a whole that have this attitude, if you go to Latin America you will find the patriarchy is very much alive and well. I know Mexico extremely well and of the women in my wife's family and of her friends too about half have suffered at least as much and in most cases more than the victims in this case and those of them who have made too much noise about it are all estranged from their families. Professional life for them is also very hard, we have a paediatrician, a lawyer, a civil engineer and a teacher in that group and three out of the four have had to move from their jobs in order to escape harassment. You think that these comments that you are seeing from the foreign fans are awful, the truly awful thing is that those comments are informed by real life experience, they are merely standing up for societal norms as they see them. This country may seem light years ahead, but there are still loads of issues in politics, in professional sport and patriarchal attitudes persist within the population at large. One does not need to look very far into this thread to find that people would rather focus on the outcomes for the perpetrator rather than going through the unpleasant thought process around the lifetime of ambivalence that the other party will likely face when forming all types of personal or professional relationships with the opposite sex. Instead of asking first how the perpetrator will eventually be assimilated back into society, perhaps our prime concern should be how we can mend the psychological damage that this sort of abuse causes the victim, if indeed it is at all possible.
Can't see the KSA adopting our system anytime soon, where 98% of rapes go unpunished and the 2% who are convicted spend around 10 years in jail before becoming plumbers.
Although a lot of social media sources are. If you've ever watched anything to do with the Holocaust and then read the comments, it's truly depressing.
To be fair I would imagine it is almost impossible for a woman to get any help in law against a rich man in Saudi unless he had upset MBS so Greenwood would be alright there.
Apparently the Man U women's team (including the WC players) are all getting abuse for 'being involved in his removal though they probably had nowt to do with it.
Typically they prosecute their rape victims for adultery or promiscuity depending on their marital status, so very few women dare to compound their violation at the hands of the individual with a public assault at the hands of the state.
People do make this far more complicated than it should be.
ANY reasonable employee would sack Greenwood under gross misconduct clauses regardless of whether the case went to court or not. If his contract did not include wording along the lines of ‘actions that could bring the club (organisation) into disrepute’ or similar then whoever puts the contracts together at Man Utd should be given alternative employment.
Picking up on the more general @DevC points, pretty much every employer (and I would expect an independent plumber to require a trade licence) would require a DBS check to be employed within that field. This should prevent sex offenders working as plumbers. But there are a number (not enough) of organisations that specialise in helping offenders back into employment. But (key point this) this does not mean they have the right to return to their previous sphere of employment if there is any potential risk of harm (and that can include adversely influencing football supporters).
The Greenwood situation doesn’t fit into that because legally he is not guilty. Fortunately morally (by pretty much ANY criteria) he is low-life vermin so no organisation with ANY moral fibre would touch him with a bargepole (no link intended).
So expect him at Bristol Rovers any day soon… (and I feel bad trying to make a light-hearted quip here)
Indeed @bookertease it is a moral issue more than a legal one. Man U made it look like they had none. He'll soon be on 100k a week playing for Stephen Gerrard in a far away land.
Seeing the title of this thread and then reading it and seeing all the people in it talking sense does make me feel good about being a woman here, lol. There's places with a lot more to say about women and a lot less respect in practice, believe you me .
FWIW, I don't think society treats either victims or criminals particularly responsibly in these kinda situations but that said, employers make judgments about people that wouldn't stand up in court all the time. Innocent until proven guilty Mason Greenwood may be, but if Man U reckon that given everything they know about him someone else will be a bigger asset then they're well within their rights to sack him and bring in that someone. And I don't think Mason Greenwood is honestly all that much of a victim here . We all saw the transcript and the consequences he's facing for that are that he's lost his ability to work at the top of one industry in one country in the near future, and he's still 21 , talented and famous . He'll be fine. People with far less of a reputation for good or for ill than Mason Greenwood are on the wrong side of that equation all the time, and if you're genuinely worried about people losing their jobs and ability to function in society for unjust reasons then I tend to think he's a bit of a distraction. It's the people getting sacked from minimum wage retail jobs for mishandling one stroppy customer that you want to worry about
Comments
Why, just why have you done this?
I regret even starting this thread....
We haven't even started Thomas Partey yet....
I would be appalled if Greenwood played for us. What message would it send to the clubs ladies team? Luke McCormack I would prefer not to wear our shirt, but he didn't intentionally go out to kill someone, so I could just about live with that.
Your other example of a sex offender having served 3 years (must have been a serious offence for that term) then no, I would not want him anywhere near Adams Park.
In my opinion, convicted sex offenders should never be allowed into private homes unless they are accompanied at all times by a responsible fellow tradesman.
Awful stuff this
Fair enough @mooneyman . It’s a difficult and emotive issue how society should deal with people who have in the past committed horrible offences. An issue perhaps we all find difficult to face up to. I disagree with you but respect your honest opinion.
I am aware my view on this matter may not sync with many others but have tried to explain rationally where I am coming from. Honestly though bit sick of the abuse so I’ll leave it there.
'abuse'
How do you think society rehabilitates those who abuse? I mean, once they have served their time, they should surely expect to walk back into their former life no questions asked right? I’m not saying that I have the answers but this is clearly the most pressing question. I am sure that folk will understand how considered a line of reasoning this is.
Sure you will
A few years ago, I and some others set up a company offering services to motorists. One of the founder members turned out to have been a convicted sex offender, who had been given an 8 year sentence for grooming two 14 year old girls, of which he served 4 years 3 months, and was then released on licence. He had changed his name by deed poll, but the details of his conviction were available in the online archives of his local rag.
One of his victims, now aged 21, was back with him as his live in partner, so some similarity to the Greenwood saga - a case of Stockholm Syndrome, perhaps.
One of our competitors found out about all this, and started posting stuff online. This was damaging the reputation of our company, and we had to sever all ties, and remove his name from the Companies House records. His neighbours became aware of who he was, and started harassing him to the point where the Police arranged for him to move to a different town, 150 miles away. Two years ago, he contracted incurable cancer, and died, poetic justice some might say.
Moral of the story: Keep it in your pants.
There’s a reasonable amount to unpack there, but what strikes me the most is that a better moral would be ‘don’t abuse children.’
Surely his career in England is over ? I can't see another English team taking him because of the backlash they will rightly get. He has to move abroad, I assume the Saudis don't really care about that sort of stuff as they don't many things tbh !
What I've found is really depressing though, on Twitter. Pretty much all English Utd fans agree with the outcome, said it had to happen. But the majority of their " foreign" fans are appalled at the club, sending them abuse for ruining "their boy" and putting all the blame on the partner who should've just kept quiet. Some truly awful stuff on there.
Not sure Saudi Arabia would suit Greenwood as they behead rapists. However, they do at least sedate the rapist before execution.
Ahh... maybe not then !
Perfect destination.
@HolmerBlue - The Saudis are the easy target, let's all point the finger at the shocking attitudes that they have to women, but the fact is that the professional footballing community as a whole doesn't really concern itself with morals. The players are happy to go there, the owners of our clubs are happy to sell out to them, FIFA are happy for them to host the subset of events that their society will tolerate and it's not just football - the same goes for golf and boxing. I presume that tennis will follow at some point, can't think of any other sports that have the global stature that they would wish to buy, perhaps the Olympics although I suspect not given how integral the female participation has become. The point though is that it is not just the Saudis or the region as a whole that have this attitude, if you go to Latin America you will find the patriarchy is very much alive and well. I know Mexico extremely well and of the women in my wife's family and of her friends too about half have suffered at least as much and in most cases more than the victims in this case and those of them who have made too much noise about it are all estranged from their families. Professional life for them is also very hard, we have a paediatrician, a lawyer, a civil engineer and a teacher in that group and three out of the four have had to move from their jobs in order to escape harassment. You think that these comments that you are seeing from the foreign fans are awful, the truly awful thing is that those comments are informed by real life experience, they are merely standing up for societal norms as they see them. This country may seem light years ahead, but there are still loads of issues in politics, in professional sport and patriarchal attitudes persist within the population at large. One does not need to look very far into this thread to find that people would rather focus on the outcomes for the perpetrator rather than going through the unpleasant thought process around the lifetime of ambivalence that the other party will likely face when forming all types of personal or professional relationships with the opposite sex. Instead of asking first how the perpetrator will eventually be assimilated back into society, perhaps our prime concern should be how we can mend the psychological damage that this sort of abuse causes the victim, if indeed it is at all possible.
Can't see the KSA adopting our system anytime soon, where 98% of rapes go unpunished and the 2% who are convicted spend around 10 years in jail before becoming plumbers.
I'll stop you at "twitter".
It really is a cesspit.
Although a lot of social media sources are. If you've ever watched anything to do with the Holocaust and then read the comments, it's truly depressing.
To be fair I would imagine it is almost impossible for a woman to get any help in law against a rich man in Saudi unless he had upset MBS so Greenwood would be alright there.
Apparently the Man U women's team (including the WC players) are all getting abuse for 'being involved in his removal though they probably had nowt to do with it.
Typically they prosecute their rape victims for adultery or promiscuity depending on their marital status, so very few women dare to compound their violation at the hands of the individual with a public assault at the hands of the state.
People do make this far more complicated than it should be.
ANY reasonable employee would sack Greenwood under gross misconduct clauses regardless of whether the case went to court or not. If his contract did not include wording along the lines of ‘actions that could bring the club (organisation) into disrepute’ or similar then whoever puts the contracts together at Man Utd should be given alternative employment.
Picking up on the more general @DevC points, pretty much every employer (and I would expect an independent plumber to require a trade licence) would require a DBS check to be employed within that field. This should prevent sex offenders working as plumbers. But there are a number (not enough) of organisations that specialise in helping offenders back into employment. But (key point this) this does not mean they have the right to return to their previous sphere of employment if there is any potential risk of harm (and that can include adversely influencing football supporters).
The Greenwood situation doesn’t fit into that because legally he is not guilty. Fortunately morally (by pretty much ANY criteria) he is low-life vermin so no organisation with ANY moral fibre would touch him with a bargepole (no link intended).
So expect him at Bristol Rovers any day soon… (and I feel bad trying to make a light-hearted quip here)
Indeed @bookertease it is a moral issue more than a legal one. Man U made it look like they had none. He'll soon be on 100k a week playing for Stephen Gerrard in a far away land.
Plus probaby having agreed a substantial pay off from United to pack his bags!
Seeing the title of this thread and then reading it and seeing all the people in it talking sense does make me feel good about being a woman here, lol. There's places with a lot more to say about women and a lot less respect in practice, believe you me .
FWIW, I don't think society treats either victims or criminals particularly responsibly in these kinda situations but that said, employers make judgments about people that wouldn't stand up in court all the time. Innocent until proven guilty Mason Greenwood may be, but if Man U reckon that given everything they know about him someone else will be a bigger asset then they're well within their rights to sack him and bring in that someone. And I don't think Mason Greenwood is honestly all that much of a victim here . We all saw the transcript and the consequences he's facing for that are that he's lost his ability to work at the top of one industry in one country in the near future, and he's still 21 , talented and famous . He'll be fine. People with far less of a reputation for good or for ill than Mason Greenwood are on the wrong side of that equation all the time, and if you're genuinely worried about people losing their jobs and ability to function in society for unjust reasons then I tend to think he's a bit of a distraction. It's the people getting sacked from minimum wage retail jobs for mishandling one stroppy customer that you want to worry about
Gawd...looks like even Saudi Arabia think his transfer would make them look bad!
That must make him reflect
Can see this becoming a massive debate again in a few years.
If he goes to Germany/Spain etc and does well, questions will be asked around should he ever get selected to represent England.
Off to Roma according to some reports
Mason isn't going to Saudi Arabia. They think he's too damaging to their pro-women image.
Was surprised not to see him on the bench for the horse punters today.