The thing is though the 50/50 draw was an exciting event that punctuated half time. An online draw just isn’t the same. The whole ritual of deciding how many to get, whether the fella would give you sequential numbers or a few from different parts of the book, even occasionally the first or last tickets, made it a fun part of the match day. Not to mention the eternal quandary whether to go for the one or the two pound tickets.
The 50/50 and the online draw aren’t mutually exclusive, we could have both.
We always hold the QBC draw in public, with independent people making the draw and as witnesses, to be completely open. Draw either held at monthly Trust meeting or pre match, as it will be on Boxing Day. It's open to all fans, you don't need to be a Trust member.
@AlanCecil Is it worth picking a match or two to really promote it? We could have people around the car park explaining it and signing people up. How about doing the draw on the pitch at half time to give it some spectacle?
We promote the QBC draw via Twitter, Facebook, Linked In, Trust member emails and at our stall at every home game where anyone can sign up.
As it is not directly fund raising for the Club we are not able to do the draw on the pitch at present but will work on that for the future as prize money grows.
That Last paragraph intrigues me, I might be reading too much into it but does “As it is not directly funding raising for the club we are not able to do the draw on the pitch” mean that you have asked to do it but someone has said no (if so the reason given was..?)or the logistics (or something else) of doing the draw there is prohibitive?
It’s like charity causes though. If I’m stopped in the street and asked to put a few bob in a bucket I will. If I’m asked to sign up for something I’m less inclined unless I’m really invested in that cause. The 50/50 captures home, away, neutral, Jonny Come Lately etc
So yes it’s a trick being missed at at time when I would have thought the trust would appreciate income.
This is the angle I was sort of coming from, though thanks @AlanCecil for taking the time to clarify etc.
I genuinely knew nothing about it, and I’m a season ticket holder soo sit in @TheAndyGrahamFanClub ’s corner of feeling there is a benefit to the visual presence.
Just a suggestion though if I may?
Lets say a game was selected to sell them as a matchday draw, you don’t actually need to have the pitch if you can’t get access to it. You could actually film the draw from anywhere as a ‘Facebook Live’. This is then recorded automatically and can be found online on Facebook at any time and you can even link to your website.
With the wifi at the stadium it’s totally doable and a modern way to do things too.
I appreciate not every 50/50 draw contestant uses Facebook, but it’s a start and a way forward and actually a hell of a lot of people who could buy a ticket are on Facebook.
An interesting post @Commoner and I’m one of the many who have given it the thumbs up. But I don’t understand how being in the Championship would be likely to be unsustainable.
Surely the Couhig stance from day one (whether openly stated or not) has been predicated on getting to and staying in the Championship? Gate income, food, drink and merchandise sales and the substantial “income” from the EFL (not sure how to describe it) for just being in the Championship should surely guarantee sustainability provided the owners and the majority of fans would be happy with mid-table and/or occasional flirtation with the playoffs.
The frustration of slow exiting from the ground is hardly a deterrent for away fans as it’s a one-off each season. Big away support guaranteed for most home games.
I don't really understand your last paragraph Alan. Surely the Trust still own 25% of the club, and in theory as part owners, are required to contribute that percentage of any capital spending by the Couhigs. Surely any 50/50 income would still effectively be club income?
Anyway thanks for your continued interaction with the Gasroom it is much appreciated by all of us. The Trust is lucky to have you on its Board.
As 25% owners, why can't we do it on the 25% of the pitch we own? If the Couhigs don't want it on their 75% then fair play but this really is ridiculous!
Do the balls get poured out the bag every once in a while and put back in? Just want to ensure my balls are not at the bottom, never to be seen again!!!
Pure uneducated guesswork! So, I thought I'd try and add some facts to my gut feeling. I do not believe that we can sustain Championship football on a low gate (less than 10k), even with the Championship TV money available. I also think it will be very difficult to sustain a place on gates of 12k-13k.
At best I think we could last a maximum of three seasons, more likely 2 and highly likely only the one. Not through lack of trying but just lack of money to sustain the income required to be competitive.
The lowest average crowd over the last 5-10 seasons in the championship is around 10k for completed non covid seasons.
Figures below for relegated clubs, average gate and attendance position from 1-24. I have listed the clubs in the finishing order 24th, then 23rd then 22nd.
Out of 15 relegations over those 5 seasons, 10 clubs had an average attendence 19th or below. 8 clubs 21st or below. Average gate of the team in 21st in attendence league over those 5 seasons is 12.5k. Our ground doesn't hold 12.5k!
There are 3 exceptions I can see. Brentford, Bournemouth and Luton. Brentford & Bournemouth are being bank rolled, we are not!
Luton would be the aspiration and the only outlier. They are now in their 4th season in the 2nd tier, currently 13th but only 6 points above the relegation zone. Average gate is just over 10k across those four seasons. Now the reverend has gone, it will be interesting to see where they finish. I think they are a bigger club than us, and we would struggle to match their average attendance.
I'd put yo-yo clubs of Wigan and Blackpool in the same bracket as Luton. They will get 2-3k more than us in L1 currently.
Comparable clubs to us - Rotherham, Burton, Doncaster, Yeovil - have not managed more than 2 consecutive seasons in Championship over last 10 seasons. Only Rotherham have managed 3 seasons or more. Rotherham also have a much higher average gate than us the last 5 seasons.
MK Dons had one season but they shouldn't exist at all!
History seems to suggest that clubs of our size are just not big enough to sustain Championship football in the current financial climate. Although I believe it is still possible for us to get promoted again and have a good go at staying up, I just don't see it lasting.
Surely the best half- time entertainment has to be the chip shot, by an average - often slightly drunk - punter selected at random from the crowd, from X metres away into the open boot of a car, to win said car!
Agreed. And getting all those kids along to the game, and letting them experience the rush of playing on a proper pitch, surely has a good chance of producing at least a percentage of said kids as converts for life?
No idea why this was stopped. I don’t know how it worked, presumably the kids and their families all got free tickets, was that the problem? “No freebies” in the Couhig era…
While I think its fantastic we're not Isthmian with 500 gates anymore, losing £3m a season keeps me up at night.
I'd rather we stopped pushing so aggressively for the Championship, if its a choice between haemorrhaging money at the current rate, or mid table mediocrity for a few years.
@OxfordBlue , it is a pretty bold assumption that WWFC can be break even financially while sustainably achieving mid table "mediocrity" in Lg1. Therein lies the ongoing problem - there is almost certainly no happy break even alternative whether "fan owned" or "privately owned"
I'm not sure @OxfordBlue said we could break even but he did say we should spend less and accept mid table mediocrity.
For us to break even we would be looking at a wage bill of about 2 million per season in Lge1, if we went down to Lge2 then I expect this would have to be as low as 1 million with reduced gates and income.
Even with all the huge increases in season tickets, food and merchandise it would be very difficult to run this club at break even. The sale of players for big sums could help balance the books but we do not play a style of football that gains large transfer fees or creates interest in our players or manager. Oxford have not been as successful as us in recent times but they have gained millions from good cup runs and the sale of players. The sale of players alone has been worth 10 million to Oxford since 2019/20, in that same period we gained around £1.25 Million.
We have had an amazing three years and Gareth and the Couhigs have been at the forefront of that. I just hope the Couhigs stop this crazy spending as ultimately it is the clubs debt not theirs. I would also like to see more realistic pricing as for many it's killing the interest in the club.
Unless someone comes in and bank roles us with their own money then this club will always lose money at any realistic level. It's why football is broken.
I suspect the only plan @peterparrotface in the competitive environment that exists in Lg1, Lg2 (and the NL) for a club the size of WWFC is a succession of owners spending their money until they get bored/skint and we move on to the next one. Pretty much like most smaller Lg1 clubs/nearly all Lg2 clubs.
Take no pleasure in that but I fear its where the reality is.
Maybe Mehmeti and/or Forino can attract a big enough fee to kick the can down the road a year or two.
Here's your regular reminder that Dev makes zero financial contribution towards the future of Wycombe Wanderers whilst continuing to lecture us all on a daily basis about it
Interesting comparison between us and Oxford, @wwfcblue . In terms of value and possible sale, I feel that the club needs to be/is better off in L1, as the draw and "riches" of the Championship (then the dream and stupendous riches of Premier League) is but one step away.
Comments
The thing is though the 50/50 draw was an exciting event that punctuated half time. An online draw just isn’t the same. The whole ritual of deciding how many to get, whether the fella would give you sequential numbers or a few from different parts of the book, even occasionally the first or last tickets, made it a fun part of the match day. Not to mention the eternal quandary whether to go for the one or the two pound tickets.
The 50/50 and the online draw aren’t mutually exclusive, we could have both.
Thanks for the response Alan and understand your reasoning. However I just thought the 50/50 was open to a more captive audience.
Thank you and @Lloyd2084 too.
We always hold the QBC draw in public, with independent people making the draw and as witnesses, to be completely open. Draw either held at monthly Trust meeting or pre match, as it will be on Boxing Day. It's open to all fans, you don't need to be a Trust member.
@AlanCecil Is it worth picking a match or two to really promote it? We could have people around the car park explaining it and signing people up. How about doing the draw on the pitch at half time to give it some spectacle?
We promote the QBC draw via Twitter, Facebook, Linked In, Trust member emails and at our stall at every home game where anyone can sign up.
As it is not directly fund raising for the Club we are not able to do the draw on the pitch at present but will work on that for the future as prize money grows.
That Last paragraph intrigues me, I might be reading too much into it but does “As it is not directly funding raising for the club we are not able to do the draw on the pitch” mean that you have asked to do it but someone has said no (if so the reason given was..?)or the logistics (or something else) of doing the draw there is prohibitive?
would you mind expanding on it please?
It’s like charity causes though. If I’m stopped in the street and asked to put a few bob in a bucket I will. If I’m asked to sign up for something I’m less inclined unless I’m really invested in that cause. The 50/50 captures home, away, neutral, Jonny Come Lately etc
So yes it’s a trick being missed at at time when I would have thought the trust would appreciate income.
This is the angle I was sort of coming from, though thanks @AlanCecil for taking the time to clarify etc.
I genuinely knew nothing about it, and I’m a season ticket holder soo sit in @TheAndyGrahamFanClub ’s corner of feeling there is a benefit to the visual presence.
Just a suggestion though if I may?
Lets say a game was selected to sell them as a matchday draw, you don’t actually need to have the pitch if you can’t get access to it. You could actually film the draw from anywhere as a ‘Facebook Live’. This is then recorded automatically and can be found online on Facebook at any time and you can even link to your website.
With the wifi at the stadium it’s totally doable and a modern way to do things too.
I appreciate not every 50/50 draw contestant uses Facebook, but it’s a start and a way forward and actually a hell of a lot of people who could buy a ticket are on Facebook.
An interesting post @Commoner and I’m one of the many who have given it the thumbs up. But I don’t understand how being in the Championship would be likely to be unsustainable.
Surely the Couhig stance from day one (whether openly stated or not) has been predicated on getting to and staying in the Championship? Gate income, food, drink and merchandise sales and the substantial “income” from the EFL (not sure how to describe it) for just being in the Championship should surely guarantee sustainability provided the owners and the majority of fans would be happy with mid-table and/or occasional flirtation with the playoffs.
The frustration of slow exiting from the ground is hardly a deterrent for away fans as it’s a one-off each season. Big away support guaranteed for most home games.
I don't really understand your last paragraph Alan. Surely the Trust still own 25% of the club, and in theory as part owners, are required to contribute that percentage of any capital spending by the Couhigs. Surely any 50/50 income would still effectively be club income?
Anyway thanks for your continued interaction with the Gasroom it is much appreciated by all of us. The Trust is lucky to have you on its Board.
As 25% owners, why can't we do it on the 25% of the pitch we own? If the Couhigs don't want it on their 75% then fair play but this really is ridiculous!
Do the balls get poured out the bag every once in a while and put back in? Just want to ensure my balls are not at the bottom, never to be seen again!!!
Pure uneducated guesswork! So, I thought I'd try and add some facts to my gut feeling. I do not believe that we can sustain Championship football on a low gate (less than 10k), even with the Championship TV money available. I also think it will be very difficult to sustain a place on gates of 12k-13k.
At best I think we could last a maximum of three seasons, more likely 2 and highly likely only the one. Not through lack of trying but just lack of money to sustain the income required to be competitive.
The lowest average crowd over the last 5-10 seasons in the championship is around 10k for completed non covid seasons.
Figures below for relegated clubs, average gate and attendance position from 1-24. I have listed the clubs in the finishing order 24th, then 23rd then 22nd.
21/22 - Posh - 10k - 22nd, Barnsley 12.7k - 19th, Derby 23k - 3rd . 24th was Bournemouth, 23rd Luton - 9.8k.
19/20 - Hull 11.5k - 22nd, Wigan 10.6 - 23rd, Charlton 18.1k - 13th. 24th was Luton - 10k.
18/19 - Ipswich - 17.7k - 14th , Bolton 14.6k - 16th , Rotherham 9.8k - 24th.
17/18 - Sunderland 27.6k - 4th, Burton 4.6k - 24th, Barnsley - 13k - 21st.
16/17 - Rotherham 9.7k - 23rd, Wigan 11.7k - 21st, Blackburn - 12.6k - 19th. 24th was Burton - 5.6k.
Out of 15 relegations over those 5 seasons, 10 clubs had an average attendence 19th or below. 8 clubs 21st or below. Average gate of the team in 21st in attendence league over those 5 seasons is 12.5k. Our ground doesn't hold 12.5k!
There are 3 exceptions I can see. Brentford, Bournemouth and Luton. Brentford & Bournemouth are being bank rolled, we are not!
Luton would be the aspiration and the only outlier. They are now in their 4th season in the 2nd tier, currently 13th but only 6 points above the relegation zone. Average gate is just over 10k across those four seasons. Now the reverend has gone, it will be interesting to see where they finish. I think they are a bigger club than us, and we would struggle to match their average attendance.
I'd put yo-yo clubs of Wigan and Blackpool in the same bracket as Luton. They will get 2-3k more than us in L1 currently.
Comparable clubs to us - Rotherham, Burton, Doncaster, Yeovil - have not managed more than 2 consecutive seasons in Championship over last 10 seasons. Only Rotherham have managed 3 seasons or more. Rotherham also have a much higher average gate than us the last 5 seasons.
MK Dons had one season but they shouldn't exist at all!
History seems to suggest that clubs of our size are just not big enough to sustain Championship football in the current financial climate. Although I believe it is still possible for us to get promoted again and have a good go at staying up, I just don't see it lasting.
I miss the 50/50. Never won it but a mate won £1600 at one of the cup matches - proper excitement.
Quite odd that the club can’t be arsed but is blocking the Trust doing on-pitch promotion.
I, like many others I suspect, are never going to sign up for online draws, but would definitely impulse buy a ticket.
I used to "impulse" buy a ticket or two every match. Remember when half time was fun?
I agree with all this. Can't believe they got rid of it
Kids penalties in the actual goals is the promised land of half time entertainment.
Without fail the away crowds would get behind the kids at their end and they’d often get some of the biggest cheers of the day.
Surely the best half- time entertainment has to be the chip shot, by an average - often slightly drunk - punter selected at random from the crowd, from X metres away into the open boot of a car, to win said car!
Proper jeapody in that one ...
@AlanCecil. Well that's me signed up for £4 per month ...
Agreed. And getting all those kids along to the game, and letting them experience the rush of playing on a proper pitch, surely has a good chance of producing at least a percentage of said kids as converts for life?
No idea why this was stopped. I don’t know how it worked, presumably the kids and their families all got free tickets, was that the problem? “No freebies” in the Couhig era…
Last time I saw that was at Northampton. Possibly the finest half-time entertainment ever.
Even if you couldn’t get a car, getting the ball some sort of receptacle for a prize would be tremendous scenes.
The thinking is that if you are providing on the pitch half time entertainment then less people in bars/kiosks spending money.
While I think its fantastic we're not Isthmian with 500 gates anymore, losing £3m a season keeps me up at night.
I'd rather we stopped pushing so aggressively for the Championship, if its a choice between haemorrhaging money at the current rate, or mid table mediocrity for a few years.
@OxfordBlue , it is a pretty bold assumption that WWFC can be break even financially while sustainably achieving mid table "mediocrity" in Lg1. Therein lies the ongoing problem - there is almost certainly no happy break even alternative whether "fan owned" or "privately owned"
I'd take League 2 versus losing 3M a year.
What’s your plan Dev? Enjoy it while it lasts?
I'm not sure @OxfordBlue said we could break even but he did say we should spend less and accept mid table mediocrity.
For us to break even we would be looking at a wage bill of about 2 million per season in Lge1, if we went down to Lge2 then I expect this would have to be as low as 1 million with reduced gates and income.
Even with all the huge increases in season tickets, food and merchandise it would be very difficult to run this club at break even. The sale of players for big sums could help balance the books but we do not play a style of football that gains large transfer fees or creates interest in our players or manager. Oxford have not been as successful as us in recent times but they have gained millions from good cup runs and the sale of players. The sale of players alone has been worth 10 million to Oxford since 2019/20, in that same period we gained around £1.25 Million.
We have had an amazing three years and Gareth and the Couhigs have been at the forefront of that. I just hope the Couhigs stop this crazy spending as ultimately it is the clubs debt not theirs. I would also like to see more realistic pricing as for many it's killing the interest in the club.
Unless someone comes in and bank roles us with their own money then this club will always lose money at any realistic level. It's why football is broken.
I suspect the only plan @peterparrotface in the competitive environment that exists in Lg1, Lg2 (and the NL) for a club the size of WWFC is a succession of owners spending their money until they get bored/skint and we move on to the next one. Pretty much like most smaller Lg1 clubs/nearly all Lg2 clubs.
Take no pleasure in that but I fear its where the reality is.
Maybe Mehmeti and/or Forino can attract a big enough fee to kick the can down the road a year or two.
Here's your regular reminder that Dev makes zero financial contribution towards the future of Wycombe Wanderers whilst continuing to lecture us all on a daily basis about it
In what way is he lecturing us? Seems like a perfectly reasonable opinion.
Interesting comparison between us and Oxford, @wwfcblue . In terms of value and possible sale, I feel that the club needs to be/is better off in L1, as the draw and "riches" of the Championship (then the dream and stupendous riches of Premier League) is but one step away.