@Twizz said:
What if the shot for Bristol Rovers goes in the goal rather than hitting the bar .....
Now I'm feeling miserable.
That's the beauty of football isn't it. One single moment can shape such a long period of time.
You look at Southend's demise, Col Utd could well be going back to non league. Notts County are down there too. Would be a hell of a dog fight to get back out.
Our favourite younger brother Oxford took about 5 years to get out of there too.
Is there a chance Derby could be liquidated this season?
“Only if no buyer is serious in coming forward, or they run out of money in the new year. The problem with Derby is that the valuable company that owns the stadium is not in administration and not under their control.”
Why is that an issue?
“We only took on Wigan because we had control of all the club’s assets. There is no way I would have accepted that job without control over the stadium. Whoever buys Derby will have to deal with Mel Morris for the stadium. He could have put the stadium into administration, too, making the administrators’ lives much more straightforward. He has chosen to hold onto it, presumably because he thinks it’s his way of getting some of his money back. That’s another mistake, in my view. That money has gone. He just needs to accept that. And the stadium is worthless to anyone but the football team. The council would never let him build on it. It’s the same with the training ground. I don’t know why Quantuma (the administrators) didn’t insist on that. It’s a mystery only it can answer.”
This is from an Athletic article from December last year.
Is there a chance Derby could be liquidated this season?
“Only if no buyer is serious in coming forward, or they run out of money in the new year. The problem with Derby is that the valuable company that owns the stadium is not in administration and not under their control.”
Why is that an issue?
“We only took on Wigan because we had control of all the club’s assets. There is no way I would have accepted that job without control over the stadium. Whoever buys Derby will have to deal with Mel Morris for the stadium. He could have put the stadium into administration, too, making the administrators’ lives much more straightforward. He has chosen to hold onto it, presumably because he thinks it’s his way of getting some of his money back. That’s another mistake, in my view. That money has gone. He just needs to accept that. And the stadium is worthless to anyone but the football team. The council would never let him build on it. It’s the same with the training ground. I don’t know why Quantuma (the administrators) didn’t insist on that. It’s a mystery only it can answer.”
More and more I truly believe that all the stories about us and Middlesbrough are there to deflect from the real story.
This is as follows
Why has there seemingly been no formal offer for such 'a big club' since they went into admin in September?
The American looks odds on to buy then went quiet then ran away.
I suspect the following is the real story.
The sound of buying Derby does, on paper, look good, however once a prospective buyer sees the books they start running and don't stop.
Their liabilities are even bigger than has been reported. Has it been reported what deal MM has got the club on re the ground? What is their rent? What % of food sales etc do they have to handover?
How many left are likely to be under contract still next season on Championship wages with no relegation clauses in them?
What is the cost base of the club? I suspect their current overheads are higher than 2 possibly 3 Premier League teams.
All of the above would need addressing before they would be a viable operation / investment.
@micra said:
I’d always say Derby County were in breach of regulations rather than ‘was’. I hate the way the Aussies say England is trailing by 485 runs !
This is spot on.
It also points to a fundamental difference in perception of the entity that is a football club. In England we tend towards ‘were’ because ‘we’ think of it as a club to which ‘we’ plural belong. Other English speaking cultures may say ‘was’ as in ‘it’ an object. Interesting that in American sport the collective ‘team’ is used much broader than here (when we might mean club rather than just playing staff).
Just listened to Robs interview on bbc derby
by the way, boy is he impressive, lucky on so many levels to have him as chairman.
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and embezzled money. They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration with more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window, as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something as an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop pissing into the pot they don't possess to piss in?
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and embezzled money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something as an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop pissing into the pot they don't possess to piss in?
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and misappropriated money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop p1ssing into the pot they don't possess to p1ss in?
Jesus. This PPG thing is going to run and run isn't it? Wycombe forced the EFL to curtail the season and chose the method by which final placings were decided (why did Rob not just ask for first place? Another failing!) and then forced two 'better' teams to lose play-off games? Oh and Mel Morris owns the stadium and could solve Derby's problems immediately. Waaaaah! Let's just go back to PPG....
I've got no issue with a bit of light fishing for clicks - that's just the unfortunate reality of the industry these days - but you've got to stay within the facts. Their tweet states that the EFL voted to end the season early.
@Wendoverman said:
Strangely Derby fans think he is hopelessly muddled and there is no case.
If a video was released of Mel Morris dressed in a stereotypical robbers outfit with the Derby crest on it carrying a bag with swag written on it they'd still find a way to blame someone else
I should definitely check on the location of my tin hat before I post this but ...
I'm struck by the difference in behaviour between Mel Morris and Steve Hayes. Am I right in thinking that Sharkey forgave all the debts incurred under his ownership and only passed back to us the debts he inherited?
@OakwoodExile. I think the difference was that Sharkey kept loaning the club money to pay it's debts, he then wrote off the accumulated debt owed to him. Morris has allowed Derby to build up massive debts to other parties and then walked away. Neither served their clubs well.
Anyone who attended the Trust meetings after Mr Hayes departed in a huff. Will be aware that it was announced it was very difficult to consolidate or understand who owed what and to whom, as Mr Hayes had merged a lot of the finances into one, as he owned both Wasps and Wanderers.
There was also doubt, if the so called rent the egg chasers were paying to play at Adam's Park, was correctly being funnelled to the Wanderers.
I think the words used, were the financial benefits of having those effalumps churning up our pitch, was at best 'neutral'.
Why aren’t they selling players to try and get this through to end of the season?
Why is there no mention of all the other deals they’ve done / work in progress with the already agreed creditors that need to be dealt with.
Why haven’t administrators talked to us to broker a deal?
I don’t understand the football creditor definition being down to the EFL to decide? Is that correct?
Administrators appear to now be actively blaming us to divert away from there incompetence and Derby previous boards.
Say sorry, admit you fucked up, negotiate with us & Boro and save Derby. If they can’t even do that then my opinion from earlier in the week is slowly changing based on the info that’s come to light since Monday.
I’m not saying that as Sharkey was good. I guess what I’m struggling towards is a kind of bare minimum for a morally decent owner. If you’re going to spend money chasing the dream then it should be your own money and you should leave the club with no more debt than when you bought it. For all the messiness, Sharkey more or less passed that test.
I wouldn’t apply the same test to someone who tried to run the club sustainably and failed.
@OakwoodExile said:
I should definitely check on the location of my tin hat before I post this but ...
I'm struck by the difference in behaviour between Mel Morris and Steve Hayes. Am I right in thinking that Sharkey forgave all the debts incurred under his ownership and only passed back to us the debts he inherited?
I think it's fair to say Hayes had fewer options, there weren't people queuing up to buy us, not that the ones queuing up to by Derby are particularly credible.
But yes, he limited his ask to a certain amount In line with roughly what we owed before he took over and agreed to take it interest free from future player sell on money, primarily because we didn't have a pot to piss in at the time.
This is still generous in his favour I believe, he expanded the cost base, made us pretty close to insolvent and therefore the debts were unrealistic to expect repayment for, and he dragged things out for months before agreeing a deal so he could sell Wasps first.
But in Derby terms if he had either kept the ground or tried to sell it to someone else, or mortgaged future income or borrowed tax money, or retained any other claims we could have been a fair bit worse off. He may have done, I don't know.
The trust also take credit for difficult decisions around the academy and player funding going forward that Derby don't seem to have woken up to.
@bluenotes said:
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and misappropriated money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop p1ssing into the pot they don't possess to p1ss in?
This was a post by one of their fans on their forum yesterday:
“Let's hope Quantuma aren't busy selling Tom and Jason for enough cash to see out the season.
This will not remove the two Swords of Damocles from above the prospective buyers.
And it will ensure League 1 football next season.
If we've not been liquidated by then.”
How can some of their fans still not see that selling their key players this window could be what helps save their club. They need to reset and if that means dropping down the leagues then so be it. Their wage bill must still be sky high.
It is amazing that we managed to survive before Rob C albeit with a threadbare squad and no Deli Alli purchase on the horizon. Kudos to the Trust, GA and Dobbo for keeping us limping on without stiffing local firms or not paying the taxman! .
Why aren’t they selling players to try and get this through to end of the season?
Why is there no mention of all the other deals they’ve done / work in progress with the already agreed creditors that need to be dealt with.
Why haven’t administrators talked to us to broker a deal?
I don’t understand the football creditor definition being down to the EFL to decide? Is that correct?
Administrators appear to now be actively blaming us to divert away from there incompetence and Derby previous boards.
Say sorry, admit you fucked up, negotiate with us & Boro and save Derby. If they can’t even do that then my opinion from earlier in the week is slowly changing based on the info that’s come to light since Monday.
Agreed. They own Jason Knight, Tom Lawrence, Krystian Bielik, Max Bird etc.
These are all players that would generate reasonable fees at Championship level.
I never really venture into football twitter because it's awful, but there seems to be quite a lot of sane replies to that MP's tweets, some from Derby fans, and very little WWFC blaming.
Transfermarkt's player valuations are best taken with a pinch of salt (although they're probably still more accurate than Derby's), but these are their values of the players under contract beyond this summer:
Krystian Bielik - £4.5m
Max Bird - £3.6m
Jason Knight - £5.4m
Louie Sibley - £2.7m
Kamil Jozwiak - £3.15m
Jack Stretton - £225k
They also have Rooney on a rumoured/reported 90k a week. Regardless of merits as a manager etc shouldn't he be the first to move on if they are seriously looking to stay in business?
@YorkshireBlue said:
They also have Rooney on a rumoured/reported 90k a week. Regardless of merits as a manager etc shouldn't he be the first to move on if they are seriously looking to stay in business?
If the links to Everton are true then the admin would have pushed him out the door a lot faster than Colleen could muster ........
Comments
Irrational personal dislikes of key figures running Wycombe on the gasroom?
Surely not?
That's the beauty of football isn't it. One single moment can shape such a long period of time.
You look at Southend's demise, Col Utd could well be going back to non league. Notts County are down there too. Would be a hell of a dog fight to get back out.
Our favourite younger brother Oxford took about 5 years to get out of there too.
Doesn't bear thinking about where we'd be now.
This is from an Athletic article fom December 21.
But I'm sure we're still the villains.
This is from an Athletic article from December last year.
And we're still the villains?
More and more I truly believe that all the stories about us and Middlesbrough are there to deflect from the real story.
This is as follows
Why has there seemingly been no formal offer for such 'a big club' since they went into admin in September?
The American looks odds on to buy then went quiet then ran away.
I suspect the following is the real story.
The sound of buying Derby does, on paper, look good, however once a prospective buyer sees the books they start running and don't stop.
Their liabilities are even bigger than has been reported. Has it been reported what deal MM has got the club on re the ground? What is their rent? What % of food sales etc do they have to handover?
How many left are likely to be under contract still next season on Championship wages with no relegation clauses in them?
What is the cost base of the club? I suspect their current overheads are higher than 2 possibly 3 Premier League teams.
All of the above would need addressing before they would be a viable operation / investment.
It also points to a fundamental difference in perception of the entity that is a football club. In England we tend towards ‘were’ because ‘we’ think of it as a club to which ‘we’ plural belong. Other English speaking cultures may say ‘was’ as in ‘it’ an object. Interesting that in American sport the collective ‘team’ is used much broader than here (when we might mean club rather than just playing staff).
Just listened to Robs interview on bbc derby
by the way, boy is he impressive, lucky on so many levels to have him as chairman.
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and embezzled money. They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration with more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window, as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something as an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop pissing into the pot they don't possess to piss in?
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and embezzled money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something as an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop pissing into the pot they don't possess to piss in?
Derby County have assembled and maintained a Championship level squad that they could not afford any other way, using borrowed money and misappropriated money.
They continue to operate and play using the majority of that squad in administration using more borrowed money. These actions have been, and continue to be
to the detriment of every Championship club that operate in a fair and proper manner.
The contracts of that squad, appear to be the only tangible assets that they own, and should have been put on the market at the beginning of the transfer window,
as a means of attempting to clear their debts. This has not happened. At the end of the transfer window those contracts are effectively worth nothing.
I can understand that the Administrators are trying to hold together something an entity that can be sold on, but in reality is there anything left to sell?
At which point do Derby County stop p1ssing into the pot they don't possess to p1ss in?
(
Jesus. This PPG thing is going to run and run isn't it? Wycombe forced the EFL to curtail the season and chose the method by which final placings were decided (why did Rob not just ask for first place? Another failing!) and then forced two 'better' teams to lose play-off games? Oh and Mel Morris owns the stadium and could solve Derby's problems immediately. Waaaaah! Let's just go back to PPG....
I've got no issue with a bit of light fishing for clicks - that's just the unfortunate reality of the industry these days - but you've got to stay within the facts. Their tweet states that the EFL voted to end the season early.
Strangely Derby fans think he is hopelessly muddled and there is no case.
If a video was released of Mel Morris dressed in a stereotypical robbers outfit with the Derby crest on it carrying a bag with swag written on it they'd still find a way to blame someone else
Anyone know what Salford City's finances are like? How have they managed to sign Matt Smith?!
I suspect 'murky,' would be the right adjective.
Class of 92 very quiet on topic of Derby ! Almost like they've got their own house to sort first......
I should definitely check on the location of my tin hat before I post this but ...
I'm struck by the difference in behaviour between Mel Morris and Steve Hayes. Am I right in thinking that Sharkey forgave all the debts incurred under his ownership and only passed back to us the debts he inherited?
@OakwoodExile. I think the difference was that Sharkey kept loaning the club money to pay it's debts, he then wrote off the accumulated debt owed to him. Morris has allowed Derby to build up massive debts to other parties and then walked away. Neither served their clubs well.
Anyone who attended the Trust meetings after Mr Hayes departed in a huff. Will be aware that it was announced it was very difficult to consolidate or understand who owed what and to whom, as Mr Hayes had merged a lot of the finances into one, as he owned both Wasps and Wanderers.
There was also doubt, if the so called rent the egg chasers were paying to play at Adam's Park, was correctly being funnelled to the Wanderers.
I think the words used, were the financial benefits of having those effalumps churning up our pitch, was at best 'neutral'.
Administrators and now MP trying to blame us, EFL and Middlesborough.
Why aren’t they selling players to try and get this through to end of the season?
Why is there no mention of all the other deals they’ve done / work in progress with the already agreed creditors that need to be dealt with.
Why haven’t administrators talked to us to broker a deal?
I don’t understand the football creditor definition being down to the EFL to decide? Is that correct?
Administrators appear to now be actively blaming us to divert away from there incompetence and Derby previous boards.
Say sorry, admit you fucked up, negotiate with us & Boro and save Derby. If they can’t even do that then my opinion from earlier in the week is slowly changing based on the info that’s come to light since Monday.
I’m not saying that as Sharkey was good. I guess what I’m struggling towards is a kind of bare minimum for a morally decent owner. If you’re going to spend money chasing the dream then it should be your own money and you should leave the club with no more debt than when you bought it. For all the messiness, Sharkey more or less passed that test.
I wouldn’t apply the same test to someone who tried to run the club sustainably and failed.
I think it's fair to say Hayes had fewer options, there weren't people queuing up to buy us, not that the ones queuing up to by Derby are particularly credible.
But yes, he limited his ask to a certain amount In line with roughly what we owed before he took over and agreed to take it interest free from future player sell on money, primarily because we didn't have a pot to piss in at the time.
This is still generous in his favour I believe, he expanded the cost base, made us pretty close to insolvent and therefore the debts were unrealistic to expect repayment for, and he dragged things out for months before agreeing a deal so he could sell Wasps first.
But in Derby terms if he had either kept the ground or tried to sell it to someone else, or mortgaged future income or borrowed tax money, or retained any other claims we could have been a fair bit worse off. He may have done, I don't know.
The trust also take credit for difficult decisions around the academy and player funding going forward that Derby don't seem to have woken up to.
This was a post by one of their fans on their forum yesterday:
“Let's hope Quantuma aren't busy selling Tom and Jason for enough cash to see out the season.
This will not remove the two Swords of Damocles from above the prospective buyers.
And it will ensure League 1 football next season.
If we've not been liquidated by then.”
How can some of their fans still not see that selling their key players this window could be what helps save their club. They need to reset and if that means dropping down the leagues then so be it. Their wage bill must still be sky high.
It is amazing that we managed to survive before Rob C albeit with a threadbare squad and no Deli Alli purchase on the horizon. Kudos to the Trust, GA and Dobbo for keeping us limping on without stiffing local firms or not paying the taxman! .
Agreed. They own Jason Knight, Tom Lawrence, Krystian Bielik, Max Bird etc.
These are all players that would generate reasonable fees at Championship level.
I never really venture into football twitter because it's awful, but there seems to be quite a lot of sane replies to that MP's tweets, some from Derby fans, and very little WWFC blaming.
Transfermarkt's player valuations are best taken with a pinch of salt (although they're probably still more accurate than Derby's), but these are their values of the players under contract beyond this summer:
Krystian Bielik - £4.5m
Max Bird - £3.6m
Jason Knight - £5.4m
Louie Sibley - £2.7m
Kamil Jozwiak - £3.15m
Jack Stretton - £225k
Almost £20m's worth of players
They also have Rooney on a rumoured/reported 90k a week. Regardless of merits as a manager etc shouldn't he be the first to move on if they are seriously looking to stay in business?
If the links to Everton are true then the admin would have pushed him out the door a lot faster than Colleen could muster ........