@Guppys_Left_Leg said:
Still don't understand why the Derby fans are fixating on both ourselves and Middlesbrough.
I would have thought the £39 million bill to the HMRC was more of a pressing worry!!
Who the hell there decided to spend that money as freely as they must have done to run up that kind of debt
It’s all become totally emotional. It’s much easier to rage at Rob Couhig and Steve Gibson than the faceless HMRC.
And because deep down most of them know that they lauded Mel Morris and his antics, they can’t quite bring themselves to focus on him as the real cause of this. I’ve lost track of the number of times over the years I’ve been told that Mel’s Derby through and through.
Give up the stadium Mel and it’ll all be sorted. As soon as someone tries to separate the club and its home, alarm bells should start ringing.
I don't understand any of this financial stuff but it seems to me that the administrators are basically just carrying on the ethos of the football club.
They basically purely seem to be gambling on the promised land (i.e. a rich, presumably dumb, investor with more money than sense) and think that keeping their current assets as far as possible is the best way to do that.
Presumably the alternative, selling off their assets as best they can and then trying to make what's left viable, hasn't occurred to them?
If the gamble fails, it seems too late to resort to the alternative and I do fear for the short-term future of Derby County (although I believe that they will be deemed too big to fail by the EFL - partly I think out of embarrassment for their failings).
But to look beyond the auditors for blame for the current (as opposed to what got them into administration in the first place) mess seems bizarre.
@arnos_grove said:
It’s all become totally emotional. It’s much easier to rage at Rob Couhig and Steve Gibson than the faceless HMRC.
This is exactly it. My prediction is that Steve Gibson will withdraw soon, leaving Rob Couhig as the only enemy in town. And how long then before a bunch of Derby fans decide to buy tickets to the Wycombe terrace at some random home match and start some trouble?
I doubt Mr Couhig will be minded to take my advice. But nonetheless it is this: Be the bigger man. Make a statement now that you have made your point, highlighted the iniquity in the system and the corruption within Derby but you don't want to see the club fold so for the good of all are withdrawing your claim. Then turn your guns on the EFL and try to affect change in the rules and regulations, bringing supporters and owners of all the other properly run clubs with you. From villain to hero in one easy step.
The lazy false narratives about Wycombe surrounding this farago are annoying me. I started this post yesterday with the idea -
"Are these valid questions that an ordinary Wycombe fan could ask Radio Derby to pose?"
but as you can tell got a bit involved.
If the gasroom think it useful I could pick a good selection and suggest them as lines of enquiry that the Derby local media should be following.
Did Mel Morris make the choice of which Adminstators to appoint?
What past and current contacts does Mel Morris have with the Administators, personal, business and official?
Was the Adminstators original proof of serious interest from a prospective buyer demonstration of funds a sum of £100m?
When they first looked at the books £100m seemed to the Administrators to be sufficient funds for Derby to continue as a club. The Administrators own assessment was that Derby stood a very good chance of survival. What has changed?
Who has put the brake on to stop the Adminstrators try to negotiate / reach an agreed valuation for the claims of the two clubs which were most seriously and directly disadvantaged by the cheating by Derby County while Mel Morris was in charge there? Somebody is taking the decision not to do this. The claims have been lodged for a long time, just as cheating by Mel Morris' Derby has been known for a long time.
Why is it that the Adminstrators appear to view the claims by Middlesborough and Wycombe as worthless and yet prospective buyers appear to view them as deal breakers according to the Administators?
Both Middlesborough and Wycombe have an obvious interest in Derby continuing as a football club - they get nothing if Derby County FC are liquidated. I only have knowledge of Wycombe's claim, which seems to me to be very well founded. Mel Morris' Derby deliberately delayed submitting accounts at the end of the 20 /21 season, giving fatuous reasons and knowing that relegation to League One last season was inevitable if they properly submitted accounts. It turned out that Wycombe were the side that would be playing Championship football this season if they had not chosen to lie about the reason for not submitting accounts. What reason other than a diversion is there for pretending that Middlesborough and Wycombe want Derby to go bust?
Would I be right in thinking that the single biggest assest associated with Derby County FC is Pride Park which was valued by Mel Morris at £80m and now belongs to a company controlled by him?
Does Pride Park have any comparable value other than as a football ground?
Are there any other assests that the Administrators now control other than the value of the contracts of the current squad and future Championship TV monies and a commoditisation of the loyalty of their fans in terms of future gate receipts and sales?
As the person controlling the ownership of Pride Park Mel Morris would be the single biggest player in the fortunes and future of the pheonix club if Derby County are liquidated at the end of the season. Are Mel Morris' financial and status interests best served by liquidation of Derby County and blaming other entities for this outcome?
Mel Morris received a CBE from in the 2017 Birthday Honours list for services to business and charity. What is he doing at the moment for business and charity to deserve keeping that honour?
Was the Adminstators original proof of serious interest from a prospective buyer demonstration of funds a sum of £100m?
When they first looked at the books £100m seemed to the Administrators to be sufficient funds for Derby to continue as a club. The Administrators own assessment was that Derby stood a very good chance of survival. What has changed?
Given HMRC are owed £39 million why is there need for another £61 million on top of that sum to keep them going (if you work on the fact that neither ours or Middlesbrough's claims are legitimate?)
I doubt Mr Couhig will be minded to take my advice. But nonetheless it is this: Be the bigger man. Make a statement now that you have made your point, highlighted the iniquity in the system and the corruption within Derby but you don't want to see the club fold so for the good of all are withdrawing your claim.
The thing is, no one knows what an agreeable settlement would be with us as the administrators aren’t even talking to him. He could be asking for a symbolic figure of £1 for all we know, but as the administrators aren’t willing to sit down and discuss, everyone is guessing we’re asking for £6m because that’s the back of a fag packet calculation difference between starting in the championship vs League one.
Why should RC withdraw and be the bigger man when we all know it won’t play out like that. He won’t be seen as the bigger man, he’d be slandered as being a chancer who never had a claim in the first place by the very people currently trying to play chicken with him.
@Forest_Blue it was entirely different.
WW Football Club & Stadium were kept separate, so that if the Football Club had to be liquidated - which was a real prospect - FALL would still own the ground and a phoenix club, run by the Trust, could have somewhere to play.
MM sold off the Derby stadium to himself so he could increase the football club income to avoid falling foul of FFP, which Derby did anyway.
He could easily now transfer stadium ownership back if he so desired, but I expect he's holding on so he can recoup some money.
Derby County FC, like any other business, collects revenue on behalf of HMRC (PAYE, VAT, etc). That money should be ringfenced, and available to pay the subsequent tax bill. Spending that money elsewhere and not having the funds to pay the tax bill is tax fraud. DCFC problems go way beyond EFL P&S/FFP rule breaking, this is criminal/civil law territory.
The Administrators have suggested they can negotiate a reduction from HMRC. Past experience of HMRC seeking winding up orders on professional football clubs would suggest otherwise.
I can not understand how so may Derby fan think that the points deduction should be the end of their problems, and anything else is the fault someone else. DCFC overspent for years and the fans were happy to jump on board and enjoy the ride.
Derby fans have been complicit with their owner until he's got fed up with pulling his wallet out of his pocket and walked away. Blackpool fans boycotted their ground until their bad owner left.
On a Derby forum one contributor stated that Derby County are founder members of the football league, and in the same sentence, that the EFL are not fit for purpose.
Oh the irony!
@Forest_Blue . A bit different, I think.
One is a Supporters Trust keeping the ground (asset) from prospective buyers to then sell on.
The other is a an owner looking to sell it on for profit (potentially).
The ground should always be a part of the club or it may just become housing
@arnos_grove said:
It’s all become totally emotional. It’s much easier to rage at Rob Couhig and Steve Gibson than the faceless HMRC.
This is exactly it. My prediction is that Steve Gibson will withdraw soon, leaving Rob Couhig as the only enemy in town. And how long then before a bunch of Derby fans decide to buy tickets to the Wycombe terrace at some random home match and start some trouble?
I doubt Mr Couhig will be minded to take my advice. But nonetheless it is this: Be the bigger man. Make a statement now that you have made your point, highlighted the iniquity in the system and the corruption within Derby but you don't want to see the club fold so for the good of all are withdrawing your claim. Then turn your guns on the EFL and try to affect change in the rules and regulations, bringing supporters and owners of all the other properly run clubs with you. From villain to hero in one easy step.
Have to disagree. To me Gibson's case is tenuous even though the EFL have given it credibility. Ours is pretty solid based on the public announcement that they acted in a deliberate manner to avoid a penalty and this was at the direct expensive of Wycombe Wanderers. To me that cash should have been ours and let's face it £5m to us sets up our future.
The argument that you are only punishing the fans does not work to me. A simple example. We lose v Torquay in 2014 and are relegated to non league - you are only punishing the fans. As fans we don't have any say in who we sign, who we play, who manages, we are simply viewers of triumph and disaster. We may vocalise our pleasure and distain for decisions but at the end of the day we are largely impotent. We celebrate the signing of an England international on crazy wages you had better know it comes at a cost but at the end of the day you can't change that decision.
@arnos_grove said:
It’s all become totally emotional. It’s much easier to rage at Rob Couhig and Steve Gibson than the faceless HMRC.
This is exactly it. My prediction is that Steve Gibson will withdraw soon, leaving Rob Couhig as the only enemy in town. And how long then before a bunch of Derby fans decide to buy tickets to the Wycombe terrace at some random home match and start some trouble?
I doubt Mr Couhig will be minded to take my advice. But nonetheless it is this: Be the bigger man. Make a statement now that you have made your point, highlighted the iniquity in the system and the corruption within Derby but you don't want to see the club fold so for the good of all are withdrawing your claim. Then turn your guns on the EFL and try to affect change in the rules and regulations, bringing supporters and owners of all the other properly run clubs with you. From villain to hero in one easy step.
Have to disagree. To me Gibson's case is tenuous even though the EFL have given it credibility.
I dunno, it’s a case that’s has been going on for 18+ months and was meant to go to arbitration but Derby county via Mel Morris (let’s not pretend they should be looked at as separate entities while he was running the club) dodged and delayed that process until they went into administration.
Where have we seen that dodging and delaying tactic before? ?
"We repeat that we have no wish to see Derby County cease to exist. We only want to be dealt with fairly and can only conclude that you are currently choosing to use ourselves, the EFL and Wycombe Wanderers as scapegoats for your failure to conclude what should have been a relatively simple task of bringing Derby County out of administration. We hope that you will have the courtesy to respond to this open letter unlike our previous correspondence which remains unanswered."
Derby fans believe he should get none of those answers and is just trying to find out how much money they've got. This really is madness. MM is the fourth in the list of people who will be the 'bad guys' when they make the film. Rob is third. They really cannot see the wood for the trees they keep planting themselves.
“ You met with Steve Gibson in November 2021. It was agreed at the meeting there would be a continued dialogue between you and Mr Gibson.”
I’m sure it’s all written in the correct way but the only thing I can object to in Steve Gibsons letter is him talking about himself in the 3rd person.
It's a bit like 'Yes, everything has turned to **** but we've got our country back...' or 'I'll have the vaccine now I am in A&E...' or 'Except for the constant lying he is doing a good job.' The whole world is going mad.
If they didn't like him before they certainly won't now but all of that is spot on. They've done sod all for months are now trying to win popularity contests and whip up hate rather than make progress.
Not sure if Boro's case might be less tight than ours but their valuation seemed to be way off as denying them a chance at a go in the play offs isn't the same thing as denying them a promised spot in the Prem. They could still easily have lost in the play offs.
@Wendoverman said:
The East Midlands derby at the weekend should be feisty both inside and outside the ground.
'He left you to die! He left you to die! Melvyn Morris! He left you to die!'
Have seen that the Forest fans have bought a load of fake notes to shower the home fans with. I expect it to get pretty nasty, as mentioned previously the Forest forum is not sympathetic to the cause
I know it’s petty but someone’s doing a good job of finding their most sanctimonious posters and retweeting their piss take comments at us when our relegation was confirmed.
The longer this goes on the more I am of the view that Quantama are aiming for a "Cram" exit from this administration. what I mean by this is they are looking to cram down the settlement as much as they can to make the decaying corpse club as attractive as possible to a purchaser.
There are problems galore with this approach as firstly HMRC are highly unlikely to waive any of the debt as they will not want to set a precedent that gets rolled out in every administration and winding up petition hearing from now on, secondly whilst MFC & WWFC have indicated they are prepared to discuss/negotiate this does not mean they will settle for nothing and this approach has never been tried with a football administration because if you do not settle preferential & football creditors 100% & non-football creditors 25% of their debt you are liable to an additional 15ponit deduction. I assume they are trying to convince the EFL to waive this but the EFL have to satisfy the other 71 members not just Derby so suspect that will be a very short conversation.
I hear on the grapevine that none of the big insolvency practitioners was prepared to touch DCFC with a barge pole as the likelihood of it wnding in liquidation was too high due to lack of saleable (non-footballing) assets to cover costs etc.
Comments
It’s all become totally emotional. It’s much easier to rage at Rob Couhig and Steve Gibson than the faceless HMRC.
And because deep down most of them know that they lauded Mel Morris and his antics, they can’t quite bring themselves to focus on him as the real cause of this. I’ve lost track of the number of times over the years I’ve been told that Mel’s Derby through and through.
Give up the stadium Mel and it’ll all be sorted. As soon as someone tries to separate the club and its home, alarm bells should start ringing.
I don't understand any of this financial stuff but it seems to me that the administrators are basically just carrying on the ethos of the football club.
They basically purely seem to be gambling on the promised land (i.e. a rich, presumably dumb, investor with more money than sense) and think that keeping their current assets as far as possible is the best way to do that.
Presumably the alternative, selling off their assets as best they can and then trying to make what's left viable, hasn't occurred to them?
If the gamble fails, it seems too late to resort to the alternative and I do fear for the short-term future of Derby County (although I believe that they will be deemed too big to fail by the EFL - partly I think out of embarrassment for their failings).
But to look beyond the auditors for blame for the current (as opposed to what got them into administration in the first place) mess seems bizarre.
This is exactly it. My prediction is that Steve Gibson will withdraw soon, leaving Rob Couhig as the only enemy in town. And how long then before a bunch of Derby fans decide to buy tickets to the Wycombe terrace at some random home match and start some trouble?
I doubt Mr Couhig will be minded to take my advice. But nonetheless it is this: Be the bigger man. Make a statement now that you have made your point, highlighted the iniquity in the system and the corruption within Derby but you don't want to see the club fold so for the good of all are withdrawing your claim. Then turn your guns on the EFL and try to affect change in the rules and regulations, bringing supporters and owners of all the other properly run clubs with you. From villain to hero in one easy step.
The lazy false narratives about Wycombe surrounding this farago are annoying me. I started this post yesterday with the idea -
"Are these valid questions that an ordinary Wycombe fan could ask Radio Derby to pose?"
but as you can tell got a bit involved.
If the gasroom think it useful I could pick a good selection and suggest them as lines of enquiry that the Derby local media should be following.
Did Mel Morris make the choice of which Adminstators to appoint?
What past and current contacts does Mel Morris have with the Administators, personal, business and official?
Was the Adminstators original proof of serious interest from a prospective buyer demonstration of funds a sum of £100m?
When they first looked at the books £100m seemed to the Administrators to be sufficient funds for Derby to continue as a club. The Administrators own assessment was that Derby stood a very good chance of survival. What has changed?
Who has put the brake on to stop the Adminstrators try to negotiate / reach an agreed valuation for the claims of the two clubs which were most seriously and directly disadvantaged by the cheating by Derby County while Mel Morris was in charge there? Somebody is taking the decision not to do this. The claims have been lodged for a long time, just as cheating by Mel Morris' Derby has been known for a long time.
Why is it that the Adminstrators appear to view the claims by Middlesborough and Wycombe as worthless and yet prospective buyers appear to view them as deal breakers according to the Administators?
Both Middlesborough and Wycombe have an obvious interest in Derby continuing as a football club - they get nothing if Derby County FC are liquidated. I only have knowledge of Wycombe's claim, which seems to me to be very well founded. Mel Morris' Derby deliberately delayed submitting accounts at the end of the 20 /21 season, giving fatuous reasons and knowing that relegation to League One last season was inevitable if they properly submitted accounts. It turned out that Wycombe were the side that would be playing Championship football this season if they had not chosen to lie about the reason for not submitting accounts. What reason other than a diversion is there for pretending that Middlesborough and Wycombe want Derby to go bust?
Would I be right in thinking that the single biggest assest associated with Derby County FC is Pride Park which was valued by Mel Morris at £80m and now belongs to a company controlled by him?
Does Pride Park have any comparable value other than as a football ground?
Are there any other assests that the Administrators now control other than the value of the contracts of the current squad and future Championship TV monies and a commoditisation of the loyalty of their fans in terms of future gate receipts and sales?
As the person controlling the ownership of Pride Park Mel Morris would be the single biggest player in the fortunes and future of the pheonix club if Derby County are liquidated at the end of the season. Are Mel Morris' financial and status interests best served by liquidation of Derby County and blaming other entities for this outcome?
Mel Morris received a CBE from in the 2017 Birthday Honours list for services to business and charity. What is he doing at the moment for business and charity to deserve keeping that honour?
Err…isn’t that what the Wycombe Wanderers Supporters Trust did when they sold the club and kept the stadium separate?
Given HMRC are owed £39 million why is there need for another £61 million on top of that sum to keep them going (if you work on the fact that neither ours or Middlesbrough's claims are legitimate?)
Something really doesn't sit right
@aloysius Roving bands of foam-flecked Rams fans heading for Wycombe intent on causing harm to the peace of the drumless terrace?
The thing is, no one knows what an agreeable settlement would be with us as the administrators aren’t even talking to him. He could be asking for a symbolic figure of £1 for all we know, but as the administrators aren’t willing to sit down and discuss, everyone is guessing we’re asking for £6m because that’s the back of a fag packet calculation difference between starting in the championship vs League one.
Why should RC withdraw and be the bigger man when we all know it won’t play out like that. He won’t be seen as the bigger man, he’d be slandered as being a chancer who never had a claim in the first place by the very people currently trying to play chicken with him.
@Forest_Blue it was entirely different.
WW Football Club & Stadium were kept separate, so that if the Football Club had to be liquidated - which was a real prospect - FALL would still own the ground and a phoenix club, run by the Trust, could have somewhere to play.
MM sold off the Derby stadium to himself so he could increase the football club income to avoid falling foul of FFP, which Derby did anyway.
He could easily now transfer stadium ownership back if he so desired, but I expect he's holding on so he can recoup some money.
Derby County FC, like any other business, collects revenue on behalf of HMRC (PAYE, VAT, etc). That money should be ringfenced, and available to pay the subsequent tax bill. Spending that money elsewhere and not having the funds to pay the tax bill is tax fraud. DCFC problems go way beyond EFL P&S/FFP rule breaking, this is criminal/civil law territory.
The Administrators have suggested they can negotiate a reduction from HMRC. Past experience of HMRC seeking winding up orders on professional football clubs would suggest otherwise.
I can not understand how so may Derby fan think that the points deduction should be the end of their problems, and anything else is the fault someone else. DCFC overspent for years and the fans were happy to jump on board and enjoy the ride.
Derby fans have been complicit with their owner until he's got fed up with pulling his wallet out of his pocket and walked away. Blackpool fans boycotted their ground until their bad owner left.
On a Derby forum one contributor stated that Derby County are founder members of the football league, and in the same sentence, that the EFL are not fit for purpose.
Oh the irony!
@Forest_Blue . A bit different, I think.
One is a Supporters Trust keeping the ground (asset) from prospective buyers to then sell on.
The other is a an owner looking to sell it on for profit (potentially).
The ground should always be a part of the club or it may just become housing
Have to disagree. To me Gibson's case is tenuous even though the EFL have given it credibility. Ours is pretty solid based on the public announcement that they acted in a deliberate manner to avoid a penalty and this was at the direct expensive of Wycombe Wanderers. To me that cash should have been ours and let's face it £5m to us sets up our future.
The argument that you are only punishing the fans does not work to me. A simple example. We lose v Torquay in 2014 and are relegated to non league - you are only punishing the fans. As fans we don't have any say in who we sign, who we play, who manages, we are simply viewers of triumph and disaster. We may vocalise our pleasure and distain for decisions but at the end of the day we are largely impotent. We celebrate the signing of an England international on crazy wages you had better know it comes at a cost but at the end of the day you can't change that decision.
I dunno, it’s a case that’s has been going on for 18+ months and was meant to go to arbitration but Derby county via Mel Morris (let’s not pretend they should be looked at as separate entities while he was running the club) dodged and delayed that process until they went into administration.
Where have we seen that dodging and delaying tactic before? ?
Statement from Derby’s administrator. Nothing new as usual. No mention of ‘Uncle Mel’ either - who appointed them of course. https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2022/01/an-update-from-the-joint-administrators-of-derby-county-football-club
https://www.mfc.co.uk/news/an-open-letter-from-steve-gibson-to-the-joint-administrators-of-derby-county-fc
Open letter to derbys admin from Gibson.
In the style of Harry hill, there’s only one way to solve this……FIGHT!
"We repeat that we have no wish to see Derby County cease to exist. We only want to be dealt with fairly and can only conclude that you are currently choosing to use ourselves, the EFL and Wycombe Wanderers as scapegoats for your failure to conclude what should have been a relatively simple task of bringing Derby County out of administration. We hope that you will have the courtesy to respond to this open letter unlike our previous correspondence which remains unanswered."
Nail firmly on head
Gibson's fifth point highlights that its in the interest of the Administrators to drag this out as long as they can to increase their fees.
Derby fans believe he should get none of those answers and is just trying to find out how much money they've got. This really is madness. MM is the fourth in the list of people who will be the 'bad guys' when they make the film. Rob is third. They really cannot see the wood for the trees they keep planting themselves.
“ You met with Steve Gibson in November 2021. It was agreed at the meeting there would be a continued dialogue between you and Mr Gibson.”
I’m sure it’s all written in the correct way but the only thing I can object to in Steve Gibsons letter is him talking about himself in the 3rd person.
That's a great letter from Gibson
The East Midlands derby at the weekend should be feisty both inside and outside the ground.
'He left you to die! He left you to die! Melvyn Morris! He left you to die!'
I’m listening to BBC Derby. They seem quite angry about Gibson’s letter saying the questions he’s asking are none of his business.
I’ve had to switch off now as a fan has just appeared on air to read out his poem about the situation ?
It's a bit like 'Yes, everything has turned to **** but we've got our country back...' or 'I'll have the vaccine now I am in A&E...' or 'Except for the constant lying he is doing a good job.' The whole world is going mad.
If they didn't like him before they certainly won't now but all of that is spot on. They've done sod all for months are now trying to win popularity contests and whip up hate rather than make progress.
Not sure if Boro's case might be less tight than ours but their valuation seemed to be way off as denying them a chance at a go in the play offs isn't the same thing as denying them a promised spot in the Prem. They could still easily have lost in the play offs.
Have seen that the Forest fans have bought a load of fake notes to shower the home fans with. I expect it to get pretty nasty, as mentioned previously the Forest forum is not sympathetic to the cause
Should also be linked that as well as Derbys Admins and Steve Gibson’s letters, the EFL has released a statement too.
https://www.efl.com/news/2022/january/derby-county-update/
Also very good given their limits
The replies on twitter are something else. Deluded.
I know it’s petty but someone’s doing a good job of finding their most sanctimonious posters and retweeting their piss take comments at us when our relegation was confirmed.
Not much ‘football family’ bonhomie back then.
The longer this goes on the more I am of the view that Quantama are aiming for a "Cram" exit from this administration. what I mean by this is they are looking to cram down the settlement as much as they can to make the
decaying corpseclub as attractive as possible to a purchaser.There are problems galore with this approach as firstly HMRC are highly unlikely to waive any of the debt as they will not want to set a precedent that gets rolled out in every administration and winding up petition hearing from now on, secondly whilst MFC & WWFC have indicated they are prepared to discuss/negotiate this does not mean they will settle for nothing and this approach has never been tried with a football administration because if you do not settle preferential & football creditors 100% & non-football creditors 25% of their debt you are liable to an additional 15ponit deduction. I assume they are trying to convince the EFL to waive this but the EFL have to satisfy the other 71 members not just Derby so suspect that will be a very short conversation.
I hear on the grapevine that none of the big insolvency practitioners was prepared to touch DCFC with a barge pole as the likelihood of it wnding in liquidation was too high due to lack of saleable (non-footballing) assets to cover costs etc.