@Right_in_the_Middle said:
Total and utter rubbish. Please don't tell me what I should think.
I think Ainsworth mentioned on his post match interview that he was mindful of the damaging effects a late defeat would have had and may have made substitutions late to help that.
To say we played that game trying not to win is rubbish.
You’re doing that thing again where you argue with something you’ve completely imagined. I said we played for a draw, not that we tried not to win. Nobody has ever said we have tried not to win. You’ve made something up to argue with.
So playing for a draw is definately not the same as trying not to win?
I'm a bit late here but I largely agree with what @Shev says about our natural level (although I'd argue it's solidly League 1). There's a difference between where we currently are and what is par for a club our size and I believe we'd need to regularly fill AP and invest more in the playing squad to compete in this division. If anything, feeling like we're punching above our weight has made this season more enjoyable for me, even if watching the last few games has been tough.
And I agree with @drcongo too that we could've done far more to try and beat Birmingham, or at least show a bit of urgency. We were taking ages over goal kicks and throw ins during those last 10 minutes against 10 men!
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
Total and utter rubbish. Please don't tell me what I should think.
I think Ainsworth mentioned on his post match interview that he was mindful of the damaging effects a late defeat would have had and may have made substitutions late to help that.
To say we played that game trying not to win is rubbish.
You’re doing that thing again where you argue with something you’ve completely imagined. I said we played for a draw, not that we tried not to win. Nobody has ever said we have tried not to win. You’ve made something up to argue with.
So playing for a draw is definately not the same as trying not to win?
Ok. You learn something every day.
Seems basic English language comprehension is not one of those things you’ve learned every day. “Trying not to win” is not the same thing as “not trying to win”. One is an intent to deliberately not win, the other is accepts that a win would be fine if it happened. You keep claiming I said the former just so you can get amusingly angry at something I didn’t say. You can keep doing it as much as you like, it won’t suddenly become true.
The question is an insult to a manager and players who deserve a lot more respect.
There are loads of ways to try to win a football game. Playing 2 up front with 2 wingers and full backs who bomb on, trying to just outscore the opposition is one.
Keeping it tight at the back, keeping a clean sheet and relying on set pieces to nick a one nil is another
Of course I've heard of it, I think it's an overly simplistic term that bears little relation to reality.
But back to the point in hand, it's nonsensical to suggest Wycombe didn't try to win that game. They just tried to do it in a way you didn't like.
And they also played really really badly.
And the real fact of the matter is that if their keeper hadn't pulled off that brilliant save (I know Allsop made two even better before you say it) and we'd nicked a one nil, then fans would have been hailing a great victory, built upon a solid clean sheet having let in 7 a few days beforehand
I totally see what you’re saying, but I respectfully disagree. We took off the only players who created or had any chances, and put the entire team behind the ball, against a team in free fall who only had ten men. That does not look like trying to win to me.
The score line in the previous match is irrelevant, out of every game this season, we needed three points from that one - a catchable team in very bad form. That game is the one that sealed our relegation because it failed to close the gap on the catchable teams.
(I will happily eat those words if we don’t get relegated)
It’s wrong to say that the Brentford game was irrelevant. Had we won or gone down to a narrow defeat against them I am sure the approach to the Birmingham game would have been different. As it was, confidence was obviously on the floor and in those situations players are likely to play in a cautious rather than adventurous manner. You continue to flog the line that we played for a draw, but that is simply your perception.
I repeat, do you seriously think the manager advised his team not to go for a win?
I think we have gone out to win every game this season. The lads have worked hard and often impressed in the first 15-20 minutes, even against the best teams in the division. But ultimately the quality of the players generally gets results over a season (Forest being the exception here this season).
And football is a game where how good a player is is pretty much clear as it’s played in public and can be observed. So better players are seen to be better and are transferred for more money and paid more money.
Gaz and Dobbo have done amazingly well. Picking up young players on the rise, older players having a farewell fling and some in between who have been rejected by other clubs. Then gaz’s inspirational leadership has built team spirit and encouraged effort and work rate to achieve more as a team than we ever thought possible.
I’ve decided not to ask for a refund on our three season tickets but I am going to write to Rob Couhig and remind him of his public commitment to Gaz and Dobbo and tell him that it is because of them that the club can keep my money.
@Right_in_the_Middle said:
Total and utter rubbish. Please don't tell me what I should think.
I think Ainsworth mentioned on his post match interview that he was mindful of the damaging effects a late defeat would have had and may have made substitutions late to help that.
To say we played that game trying not to win is rubbish.
You’re doing that thing again where you argue with something you’ve completely imagined. I said we played for a draw, not that we tried not to win. Nobody has ever said we have tried not to win. You’ve made something up to argue with.
So playing for a draw is definately not the same as trying not to win?
Ok. You learn something every day.
Seems basic English language comprehension is not one of those things you’ve learned every day. “Trying not to win” is not the same thing as “not trying to win”. One is an intent to deliberately not win, the other is accepts that a win would be fine if it happened. You keep claiming I said the former just so you can get amusingly angry at something I didn’t say. You can keep doing it as much as you like, it won’t suddenly become true.
Ok. I actually disagree with both statements but you carry on.
Why is there no ignore function against your user name? It would stop me constantly get words the wrong way around if I didn't have to read them.
People seem to be getting very upset over just one game. One game has not defined this season and where we are in the league. The basic facts are that we don't have the quality to stay in the Championship no matter what personnel we play, what formation we play or what tactics we play. Hopefully when we come up again we will be better equipped to have at least a fighting chance.
This probably harks back to the ‘natural position’ debate, but it seems unlikely to me that we’ll ever be equipped to do anything other than struggle in the Championship (at least without incredible amounts of investment, or a fundamental change to football finances.)
Whatever happens we can take pride in getting here, that should never be a debate, If we go straight back up we can look at this season as a stepping stone, however if this is the highest we ever get, or get for some to time we will look back on how we did and wether we could have done more. Quite possibly not.
Let's face it: Much of the debate above is more around bored old men who can't wait for next season.
@Chris said:
This probably harks back to the ‘natural position’ debate, but it seems unlikely to me that we’ll ever be equipped to do anything other than struggle in the Championship (at least without incredible amounts of investment, or a fundamental change to football finances.)
The only other way I see is to gain exceptional production from a youth set up. Unfortunately that's unlikely for us and less likely for other teams outside of the top few who continue to manipulate the rules to hoover up all the young talent they can.
@Chris said:
This probably harks back to the ‘natural position’ debate, but it seems unlikely to me that we’ll ever be equipped to do anything other than struggle in the Championship (at least without incredible amounts of investment, or a fundamental change to football finances.)
Difficult to disagree with your assessment at the moment, but things can change quickly in football. Take Luton and Barnsley as examples. Both survived relegation by the skin of their teeth last season, but now Barnsley are in a playoff place and Luton are heading for a mid-table finish.
@drcongo said:
I totally see what you’re saying, but I respectfully disagree. We took off the only players who created or had any chances, and put the entire team behind the ball, against a team in free fall who only had ten men. That does not look like trying to win to me.
The score line in the previous match is irrelevant, out of every game this season, we needed three points from that one - a catchable team in very bad form. That game is the one that sealed our relegation because it failed to close the gap on the catchable teams.
(I will happily eat those words if we don’t get relegated)
With respect, that's a bit disingenuous. We brought on Akinfenwa and Kashket for the players you refer to. You make it sound as though we took off attackers to shore up the defence.
And their player got sent off with two minutes to go. Again, someone reading your post with no idea of this would assume we were playing against ten men for much of the game.
Yes. For it to make just categoric financial sense for Wycombe I can't believe other clubs weren't or aren't in the same boat. They've mostly made different decisions on where to cut costs and I don't really ever change my mind that Wycombe made the wrong choice.
The problem is that it is now much more costly to restart from scratch. I keep thinking about the excitement of a new talent getting close to the first team. I used to love FA Youth Cup nights. Some may argue they get a similar thrill from improving a loan star or seeing a player like Mehmeti. It doesn't for me.
Getting a youth set up back would be my main priority.
The answer is fewer than the number attracted by your double entendre. It must be because of your popularity. My double entendre in response gets a thumbs down from one of the usual suspects! What a sensitive soul I am!
The Birmingham game was quite odd, we were particularly cautious (for want of a better word) in those last 15 minutes, some would interpret that (me included) as being happy with a point.
This is not to say we weren't trying to score, I just don't feel we gave it the effort in those last 15 we have witnessed in other games. I interpreted that to be down to the instructions from the management, which seemed to put not losing before winning in those last 15.
The first 75 I think we tried and had we got a lead then the way we played the last 15 would have been more than acceptable. Having not got the lead it was curious and something that I found particularly frustrating when factoring our position in the league and that of the opposition.
I posted something previously about our average attendance from 2019 putting us around 68th/69th place out of the 92. So if this was the only basis of natural level excluding all other factors then we are way above our "natural position." Things change but until football finances really change then I do not see how we ever sustain Championship football or even top 7 of L1.
Does anyone know how the wages work when it talks about percentage of turnover and how much clubs spend? If Reading wage bill is say £50M per annum, is that just the first team squad or is it all squads on their books?
I often thought last season that we really were not a low payer in L1. Perhaps on total budget but wages per player then maybe not. We had 25 players, a few coaches and a few loanees to pay. Other clubs had that plus a B team, U23, U21 and other youth teams. Are all the teams at the club included in the often claimed wage bills?
If they are then whilst our budget is very low, it's only divided by about 30-35 people. Whereas the clubs with academies, youth teams and reserve teams are dividing that by 60-80 people. Are we really at that much of a disadvantage in L1? I think we still are in the Championship.
Yes. For it to make just categoric financial sense for Wycombe I can't believe other clubs weren't or aren't in the same boat. They've mostly made different decisions on where to cut costs and I don't really ever change my mind that Wycombe made the wrong choice.
The problem is that it is now much more costly to restart from scratch. I keep thinking about the excitement of a new talent getting close to the first team. I used to love FA Youth Cup nights. Some may argue they get a similar thrill from improving a loan star or seeing a player like Mehmeti. It doesn't for me.
Getting a youth set up back would be my main priority.
Without knowing the finances and the alternatives at the time, it is impossible to know whether we made the right choice back then.
Even if over five years it would have been net profitable, if the finances were so bad that there was no way of getting through year one and two without closing it, it was still the right thing to do even if profits in year five would have paid for the costs in year one and two.
Woodward certainly concluded there was no alternative. He was the guy in the hot seat facing huge pressure and a very difficult situation.
It is clear from the recent book that Ainsworth and Dobbo still do not agree and that there is significant resentment about the decision that was taken. You would have thought that better financial brains (eg Howard who Ainsworth clearly trusts) would have told him that their analysis was that there was genuinely no alternative if that was the case.
We'll never know the truth either way but clearly once disbanded the costs and time of reestablishing are now much higher. It feels unlikely frankly that we will ever do so.
On formations I defer to @Commoner whose posts I find are the most illuminating on this board. I agree with his analysis of 451, it gives our defence more support, allows us to play with width and get our best players on the pitch in their natural positions. I don't understand why we play narrow formations so often, which never seem to do us any favours.
Very kind, thank you! What I would say is that, with the current squad and last years, in the Championship I think we have to play 4-5-1 due to the caliber of the opposition.
In L1, I think we can play 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-2 against 80% of the division and still come out on top as they just don't have the quality to hurt us. Horses for courses...
Having assessed that we struggle to compete in the Championship using 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-2 then next season let's try something else in the hope it will be more successful if we find ourselves here again.
I seem to recall that our youth set-up was costing £350,000 pa to run. Again from memory (not always to be relied upon these days) limits were imposed (around the time our set-up was disbanded) on the fees which could be paid by the big clubs for academy players. I guess the Cost Benefit Analysis (CBA), so beloved of our current Chief Financial Officer, produced an unacceptably negative outcome.
The best hope of making money from the sale of young players may well be to identify, nurture and develop players like Mehmeti, allow them to gain experience for a season or two in League 1 and then watch the unrefusable offers come pouring in. I can dream!
Comments
So playing for a draw is definately not the same as trying not to win?
Ok. You learn something every day.
I'm a bit late here but I largely agree with what @Shev says about our natural level (although I'd argue it's solidly League 1). There's a difference between where we currently are and what is par for a club our size and I believe we'd need to regularly fill AP and invest more in the playing squad to compete in this division. If anything, feeling like we're punching above our weight has made this season more enjoyable for me, even if watching the last few games has been tough.
And I agree with @drcongo too that we could've done far more to try and beat Birmingham, or at least show a bit of urgency. We were taking ages over goal kicks and throw ins during those last 10 minutes against 10 men!
Seems basic English language comprehension is not one of those things you’ve learned every day. “Trying not to win” is not the same thing as “not trying to win”. One is an intent to deliberately not win, the other is accepts that a win would be fine if it happened. You keep claiming I said the former just so you can get amusingly angry at something I didn’t say. You can keep doing it as much as you like, it won’t suddenly become true.
Neither is true, as it goes
Do you think we tried to win the Birmingham game?
Of course we did.
The question is an insult to a manager and players who deserve a lot more respect.
There are loads of ways to try to win a football game. Playing 2 up front with 2 wingers and full backs who bomb on, trying to just outscore the opposition is one.
Keeping it tight at the back, keeping a clean sheet and relying on set pieces to nick a one nil is another
And countless in between
Can't believe this needs explaining really
Similarly, I can’t believe you’ve never heard of a team playing for a draw.
Of course I've heard of it, I think it's an overly simplistic term that bears little relation to reality.
But back to the point in hand, it's nonsensical to suggest Wycombe didn't try to win that game. They just tried to do it in a way you didn't like.
And they also played really really badly.
And the real fact of the matter is that if their keeper hadn't pulled off that brilliant save (I know Allsop made two even better before you say it) and we'd nicked a one nil, then fans would have been hailing a great victory, built upon a solid clean sheet having let in 7 a few days beforehand
I totally see what you’re saying, but I respectfully disagree. We took off the only players who created or had any chances, and put the entire team behind the ball, against a team in free fall who only had ten men. That does not look like trying to win to me.
The score line in the previous match is irrelevant, out of every game this season, we needed three points from that one - a catchable team in very bad form. That game is the one that sealed our relegation because it failed to close the gap on the catchable teams.
(I will happily eat those words if we don’t get relegated)
It’s wrong to say that the Brentford game was irrelevant. Had we won or gone down to a narrow defeat against them I am sure the approach to the Birmingham game would have been different. As it was, confidence was obviously on the floor and in those situations players are likely to play in a cautious rather than adventurous manner. You continue to flog the line that we played for a draw, but that is simply your perception.
I repeat, do you seriously think the manager advised his team not to go for a win?
I think we have gone out to win every game this season. The lads have worked hard and often impressed in the first 15-20 minutes, even against the best teams in the division. But ultimately the quality of the players generally gets results over a season (Forest being the exception here this season).
And football is a game where how good a player is is pretty much clear as it’s played in public and can be observed. So better players are seen to be better and are transferred for more money and paid more money.
Gaz and Dobbo have done amazingly well. Picking up young players on the rise, older players having a farewell fling and some in between who have been rejected by other clubs. Then gaz’s inspirational leadership has built team spirit and encouraged effort and work rate to achieve more as a team than we ever thought possible.
I’ve decided not to ask for a refund on our three season tickets but I am going to write to Rob Couhig and remind him of his public commitment to Gaz and Dobbo and tell him that it is because of them that the club can keep my money.
Ok. I actually disagree with both statements but you carry on.
Why is there no ignore function against your user name? It would stop me constantly get words the wrong way around if I didn't have to read them.
People seem to be getting very upset over just one game. One game has not defined this season and where we are in the league. The basic facts are that we don't have the quality to stay in the Championship no matter what personnel we play, what formation we play or what tactics we play. Hopefully when we come up again we will be better equipped to have at least a fighting chance.
This probably harks back to the ‘natural position’ debate, but it seems unlikely to me that we’ll ever be equipped to do anything other than struggle in the Championship (at least without incredible amounts of investment, or a fundamental change to football finances.)
Whatever happens we can take pride in getting here, that should never be a debate, If we go straight back up we can look at this season as a stepping stone, however if this is the highest we ever get, or get for some to time we will look back on how we did and wether we could have done more. Quite possibly not.
Let's face it: Much of the debate above is more around bored old men who can't wait for next season.
Well that’s me in a nutshell.
I find boredom can be relieved by trying new positions
The only other way I see is to gain exceptional production from a youth set up. Unfortunately that's unlikely for us and less likely for other teams outside of the top few who continue to manipulate the rules to hoover up all the young talent they can.
@Right_in_the_Middle has it surprised you that more clubs haven't stopped running Youth teams and academies?
Me too. Can’t wait for survival to be mathematically impossible. Sorry @glasshalffull !
Wonder whether @StrongestTeam spells meteorological phenomena as wheather ?
Sorry @StrongestTeam !
Silly mood this morning.
Difficult to disagree with your assessment at the moment, but things can change quickly in football. Take Luton and Barnsley as examples. Both survived relegation by the skin of their teeth last season, but now Barnsley are in a playoff place and Luton are heading for a mid-table finish.
How many thumbs up do you normally get @LX1 ?
With respect, that's a bit disingenuous. We brought on Akinfenwa and Kashket for the players you refer to. You make it sound as though we took off attackers to shore up the defence.
And their player got sent off with two minutes to go. Again, someone reading your post with no idea of this would assume we were playing against ten men for much of the game.
We just didn't play very well.
Congo and Aloysius being put on the rack by Plant and Middle.
Tremendous scenes. So much better than the football. What a thread...!
Yes. For it to make just categoric financial sense for Wycombe I can't believe other clubs weren't or aren't in the same boat. They've mostly made different decisions on where to cut costs and I don't really ever change my mind that Wycombe made the wrong choice.
The problem is that it is now much more costly to restart from scratch. I keep thinking about the excitement of a new talent getting close to the first team. I used to love FA Youth Cup nights. Some may argue they get a similar thrill from improving a loan star or seeing a player like Mehmeti. It doesn't for me.
Getting a youth set up back would be my main priority.
The answer is fewer than the number attracted by your double entendre. It must be because of your popularity. My double entendre in response gets a thumbs down from one of the usual suspects! What a sensitive soul I am!
The Birmingham game was quite odd, we were particularly cautious (for want of a better word) in those last 15 minutes, some would interpret that (me included) as being happy with a point.
This is not to say we weren't trying to score, I just don't feel we gave it the effort in those last 15 we have witnessed in other games. I interpreted that to be down to the instructions from the management, which seemed to put not losing before winning in those last 15.
The first 75 I think we tried and had we got a lead then the way we played the last 15 would have been more than acceptable. Having not got the lead it was curious and something that I found particularly frustrating when factoring our position in the league and that of the opposition.
I posted something previously about our average attendance from 2019 putting us around 68th/69th place out of the 92. So if this was the only basis of natural level excluding all other factors then we are way above our "natural position." Things change but until football finances really change then I do not see how we ever sustain Championship football or even top 7 of L1.
Does anyone know how the wages work when it talks about percentage of turnover and how much clubs spend? If Reading wage bill is say £50M per annum, is that just the first team squad or is it all squads on their books?
I often thought last season that we really were not a low payer in L1. Perhaps on total budget but wages per player then maybe not. We had 25 players, a few coaches and a few loanees to pay. Other clubs had that plus a B team, U23, U21 and other youth teams. Are all the teams at the club included in the often claimed wage bills?
If they are then whilst our budget is very low, it's only divided by about 30-35 people. Whereas the clubs with academies, youth teams and reserve teams are dividing that by 60-80 people. Are we really at that much of a disadvantage in L1? I think we still are in the Championship.
Without knowing the finances and the alternatives at the time, it is impossible to know whether we made the right choice back then.
Even if over five years it would have been net profitable, if the finances were so bad that there was no way of getting through year one and two without closing it, it was still the right thing to do even if profits in year five would have paid for the costs in year one and two.
Woodward certainly concluded there was no alternative. He was the guy in the hot seat facing huge pressure and a very difficult situation.
It is clear from the recent book that Ainsworth and Dobbo still do not agree and that there is significant resentment about the decision that was taken. You would have thought that better financial brains (eg Howard who Ainsworth clearly trusts) would have told him that their analysis was that there was genuinely no alternative if that was the case.
We'll never know the truth either way but clearly once disbanded the costs and time of reestablishing are now much higher. It feels unlikely frankly that we will ever do so.
Very kind, thank you! What I would say is that, with the current squad and last years, in the Championship I think we have to play 4-5-1 due to the caliber of the opposition.
In L1, I think we can play 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-2 against 80% of the division and still come out on top as they just don't have the quality to hurt us. Horses for courses...
Having assessed that we struggle to compete in the Championship using 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-2 then next season let's try something else in the hope it will be more successful if we find ourselves here again.
I seem to recall that our youth set-up was costing £350,000 pa to run. Again from memory (not always to be relied upon these days) limits were imposed (around the time our set-up was disbanded) on the fees which could be paid by the big clubs for academy players. I guess the Cost Benefit Analysis (CBA), so beloved of our current Chief Financial Officer, produced an unacceptably negative outcome.
The best hope of making money from the sale of young players may well be to identify, nurture and develop players like Mehmeti, allow them to gain experience for a season or two in League 1 and then watch the unrefusable offers come pouring in. I can dream!