One thing to remember about L1 is that no matter how many creative/attacking issues we have, L1 teams are going to find it extremely difficult to score against us. We added Taffs and Obita to the unit which defended so well last season, and everyone is now used to trying to defend against ridiculous talent. As long as we keep this defence together, I am expecting a host of clean sheets.
I think perhaps the most detrimental difference between us as an L1 side and us as a Championship side is that we haven’t been able to rely on set pieces to anywhere near the same extent at this level, as Championship defenders seem to be able to better intercept/anticipate the deliveries.
Can't help but think that any opposition supporters that used to say they wouldn't want to watch our brand of football every week must be enjoying reading how so many of our fans are now agreeing with them. It's not the way we play that's changed, it's just the results.
I’m afraid it is to a considerable extent the way we play. A few weeks ago, we played two or three games in a more attractive style with some neat passing sequences interspersed with fewer instances of hit and hope.
@micra said:
I’m afraid it is to a considerable extent the way we play. A few weeks ago, we played two or three games in a more attractive style with some neat passing sequences interspersed with fewer instances of hit and hope.
@Doob said:
Can't help but think that any opposition supporters that used to say they wouldn't want to watch our brand of football every week must be enjoying reading how so many of our fans are now agreeing with them. It's not the way we play that's changed, it's just the results.
Opinions are not facts. It's the nature of sport that there are so many different views watching the same thing. For me I'd challenge anyone to go back and watch a game we won recently and tell me we played a more attractive style. We just passed the ball better. It stuck at our forwards feet. We were able to get midfielders up the pitch. We were able to create chances.
I know people will challenge me. That's fine. I just think we executed our game plan better in some games to others. That's based on our form on the day and how the opposition play. I've not seen any big shift in styles in any game for ages.
We've had two, brief, golden patches this season. The few matches when Richard Dobson was running the touchline, and the few matches after Rob Couhig's public bollocking. Both periods saw us play the same style, perhaps, but a different formation - where we played with real wingers using the width of the pitch and a solid central midfield. For a while the direct, long balls were interspersed with the occasional ball to feet, with wingers running with the ball and cutting into the box while central midfielders played short, sharp passes that kept possession.
@aloysius said:
We've had two, brief, golden patches this season. The few matches when Richard Dobson was running the touchline, and the few matches after Rob Couhig's public bollocking. Both periods saw us play the same style, perhaps, but a different formation - where we played with real wingers using the width of the pitch and a solid central midfield. For a while the direct, long balls were interspersed with the occasional ball to feet, with wingers running with the ball and cutting into the box while central midfielders played short, sharp passes that kept possession.
@aloysius said:
We've had two, brief, golden patches this season. The few matches when Richard Dobson was running the touchline, and the few matches after Rob Couhig's public bollocking. Both periods saw us play the same style, perhaps, but a different formation - where we played with real wingers using the width of the pitch and a solid central midfield. For a while the direct, long balls were interspersed with the occasional ball to feet, with wingers running with the ball and cutting into the box while central midfielders played short, sharp passes that kept possession.
It's really not rocket science.
I don't believe what you are saying is true.
I have to part agree with @aloysius in that after Rob Couhig 's ''discussion'' with management , we had three or four games where we seemed to want to play the ball more to feet, trying to keep possession and being more creative. The last few games we seem to have reverted back to the big hoof up field . Its painful to watch at times. I know we are not mathematically down but I would prefer us in the remaining games to play some more expansive football even if we lose because lets be honest hoof ball is hardly working.
I just don’t understand why people seem to think that the biggest reason we lose games is because of formations or tactics and not the inevitable massive difference in quality between teams.
@Chris said:
I just don’t understand why people seem to think that the biggest reason we lose games is because of formations or tactics and not the inevitable massive difference in quality between teams.
It’s not rocket science.
This is where the mixed messages are coming home to roost I'm afraid.
For years we've talked about our budget, and how we nearly went out if the league, and how it's miraculous to even stay in league 1 let alone go up.
Now we have an owner who is not interested in talking about that and how he expects to stay up and he doesn't want any excuses. I'm afraid I'm one fell swoop he's completely taken your argument away from you. He doesn't accept there is a difference in quality and therefore, by his criteria people are looking for other reasons. By definition then it is either the manager or the players.
For the record, I agree with your and as I've said before I think that letter was massively misjudged and I don't think the long term repercussions of it have played out yet.
It wouldn't surprise me to look back in the future and pinpoint that moment as the beginning of the end of Gareth Ainsworth's tenure as manager. I hope I'm wrong
I don't think anyone who saw our game against QPR on Tuesday could argue we weren't at least attempting to pass the ball on the deck much more than some previous matches. It worked to a certain degree, the problem was the final ball/cross was usually dreadful. Apart from set pieces, I don't think there was much long ball at all.
But you can't just remove what he wrote entirely from the context of our season when you're wondering why fans have (in your opinion) unrealistic expectations.
They are simply toeing the party line.
This was always going to happen once that email went out.
@aloysius said: @Chris the weather you can't change, the climate you can. Maybe by sticking to a formation and style that's proven to work for us this season.
@Chris said:
I just don’t understand why people seem to think that the biggest reason we lose games is because of formations or tactics and not the inevitable massive difference in quality between teams.
It’s not rocket science.
I agree with you on the difference in class between us and probably every other squad in the division with the exception of possibly Rotherham. I was expecting to lose 60-70% of games this season based on squad quality.
However, the formation and tactics could mean a 10-20% swing to 50:50 or 20:80. Trying to play 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-2 with only one ball winner, is quite different to playing 4-5-1 with three centre mids and two wingers who offer defensive protection across the park.
On the odd occasion the opposition are having a bad day or we are playing out of our skins then we may get some unexpected results. If we can just stay in the game for long enough.
What has been so frustrating this season is that we've tried to take the game to the opposition, particularly away from home and it has resulted in us being 2-0 down at half-time more often than not. It was too high risk and I've felt hasn't really acknowledged the difference in ability between the sides enough.
Norwich at home we played brilliantly, we accepted they were much better than us before the game and lined up accordingly with 5 across the park and invited them to break us down. Whilst we were defeated I left that game feeling so much more positive than the QPR game, as we had a plan, stuck to it and it was working.
For me, should we have taken a more cautious approach this season I think we'd have a lot more points on the board by now. At the very least we may be feeling a little happier staying in games for longer.
@aloysius said: @Chris the weather you can't change, the climate you can. Maybe by sticking to a formation and style that's proven to work for us this season.
I don't think the game plan the other night was to put in so many terrible crosses.
The exact same game plan with, say half a dozen decent balls into the box would have seen us win that game.
Don't forget for all the talk of wanting a better style of play based around the ability of Anis Mehmeti, it was the current management team that signed him in the first place, who almost immediately promoted him to the first team squad, and who are continuing to pick him for championship matches.
I would expect that they have come to appreciate this season that the next time we are at this level we may need to develop a few ways of playing, and certainly one that involves us using the ball a lot better when we have it. The development of Mehmeti as a pivotal figure within that is part of it.
I just wish the tone of that email had been slightly different. If it had said something along the lines of "we appreciate we're up against some huge sides this season with huge resources but we're here on merit and while we're here we will give it everything we've got to stay here. And during that time everyone hold your heads high and be proud because we deserve to be here competing at the same level as those clubs" it would have just landed a lot better than the whole "these are my expectations and it's 'at least' Championship football" schtick.
@aloysius said: @Chris the weather you can't change, the climate you can. Maybe by sticking to a formation and style that's proven to work for us this season.
So we've won every game we've played with this particular formation and style? I've watched every game barring Swansea and never spotted to magic formula. What is it exactly because you are being quite sketchy on the details? Have you thought about telling the manager?
For me, an obvious simpleton in the shadow of this great insight, we've quite simply been battling uphill against sides with more experienced squads at this level. When we've done the simple things right we've done ok. When we've made mistakes we haven't. Mistakes get punished at the level.
I can't work out if you haven't got the guts to call out the manager directly or you are really seeing something I'm not seeing.
@aloysius said: @Chris if you really believe that then surely we should have picked up 0 points this season?
Watford beat Liverpool 3-0 last season when Liverpool were flying. How do you explain that?
Did they play the right formation and style? I'm learning that that is a key factor. I am guessing Watford must have got it right that day but ignored the magic formula other days and got relegated.
@aloysius, do you think our sole problem this season was the manager then?
You seem keen to place the praise for the first wins on Dobbo, as if he just did whatever he fancied without any manager input, or the Chairman for the second set.
I'd say this season is basically par for what we should have achieved this season, in a context of injuries to key players at both ends of the pitch. Tafazolli and Uche being out for half the season were really big blows, as was covid hitting the camp at a bad time.
With them playing all season, and a bit more luck here and there, we may have scraped the opportunity to be say 8-10 points higher, but we'd have had to have had a lot go for us.
Comments
One thing to remember about L1 is that no matter how many creative/attacking issues we have, L1 teams are going to find it extremely difficult to score against us. We added Taffs and Obita to the unit which defended so well last season, and everyone is now used to trying to defend against ridiculous talent. As long as we keep this defence together, I am expecting a host of clean sheets.
I think perhaps the most detrimental difference between us as an L1 side and us as a Championship side is that we haven’t been able to rely on set pieces to anywhere near the same extent at this level, as Championship defenders seem to be able to better intercept/anticipate the deliveries.
We need to find a way to get Ainsworths hair cut, it's thw only way.
I think its a wig @bigred87!!
The lockdown dye job has been exposed by HD I fear.
Can't help but think that any opposition supporters that used to say they wouldn't want to watch our brand of football every week must be enjoying reading how so many of our fans are now agreeing with them. It's not the way we play that's changed, it's just the results.
I’m afraid it is to a considerable extent the way we play. A few weeks ago, we played two or three games in a more attractive style with some neat passing sequences interspersed with fewer instances of hit and hope.
Opinions are not facts. It's the nature of sport that there are so many different views watching the same thing. For me I'd challenge anyone to go back and watch a game we won recently and tell me we played a more attractive style. We just passed the ball better. It stuck at our forwards feet. We were able to get midfielders up the pitch. We were able to create chances.
I know people will challenge me. That's fine. I just think we executed our game plan better in some games to others. That's based on our form on the day and how the opposition play. I've not seen any big shift in styles in any game for ages.
We've had two, brief, golden patches this season. The few matches when Richard Dobson was running the touchline, and the few matches after Rob Couhig's public bollocking. Both periods saw us play the same style, perhaps, but a different formation - where we played with real wingers using the width of the pitch and a solid central midfield. For a while the direct, long balls were interspersed with the occasional ball to feet, with wingers running with the ball and cutting into the box while central midfielders played short, sharp passes that kept possession.
It's really not rocket science.
I don't believe what you are saying is true.
I have to part agree with @aloysius in that after Rob Couhig 's ''discussion'' with management , we had three or four games where we seemed to want to play the ball more to feet, trying to keep possession and being more creative. The last few games we seem to have reverted back to the big hoof up field . Its painful to watch at times. I know we are not mathematically down but I would prefer us in the remaining games to play some more expansive football even if we lose because lets be honest hoof ball is hardly working.
I just don’t understand why people seem to think that the biggest reason we lose games is because of formations or tactics and not the inevitable massive difference in quality between teams.
It’s not rocket science.
@Chris if you really believe that then surely we should have picked up 0 points this season?
@aloysius
Not really otherwise they’d never have been any FA Cup upsets.
@Lloyd2084 that was exactly my point to Chris
This is where the mixed messages are coming home to roost I'm afraid.
For years we've talked about our budget, and how we nearly went out if the league, and how it's miraculous to even stay in league 1 let alone go up.
Now we have an owner who is not interested in talking about that and how he expects to stay up and he doesn't want any excuses. I'm afraid I'm one fell swoop he's completely taken your argument away from you. He doesn't accept there is a difference in quality and therefore, by his criteria people are looking for other reasons. By definition then it is either the manager or the players.
For the record, I agree with your and as I've said before I think that letter was massively misjudged and I don't think the long term repercussions of it have played out yet.
It wouldn't surprise me to look back in the future and pinpoint that moment as the beginning of the end of Gareth Ainsworth's tenure as manager. I hope I'm wrong
I don't think anyone who saw our game against QPR on Tuesday could argue we weren't at least attempting to pass the ball on the deck much more than some previous matches. It worked to a certain degree, the problem was the final ball/cross was usually dreadful. Apart from set pieces, I don't think there was much long ball at all.
As always, it's how you execute the plans!
@eric_plant the answer to that is simple, the chairman is incorrect
@aloysius you just have to understand the difference between the climate and the weather.
Well yes, that's what I said.
But you can't just remove what he wrote entirely from the context of our season when you're wondering why fans have (in your opinion) unrealistic expectations.
They are simply toeing the party line.
This was always going to happen once that email went out.
@Chris the weather you can't change, the climate you can. Maybe by sticking to a formation and style that's proven to work for us this season.
Bananaman might take issue with this.
You can’t change the wind but you can set your sails.
I agree with you on the difference in class between us and probably every other squad in the division with the exception of possibly Rotherham. I was expecting to lose 60-70% of games this season based on squad quality.
However, the formation and tactics could mean a 10-20% swing to 50:50 or 20:80. Trying to play 4-3-3 or 4-1-3-2 with only one ball winner, is quite different to playing 4-5-1 with three centre mids and two wingers who offer defensive protection across the park.
On the odd occasion the opposition are having a bad day or we are playing out of our skins then we may get some unexpected results. If we can just stay in the game for long enough.
What has been so frustrating this season is that we've tried to take the game to the opposition, particularly away from home and it has resulted in us being 2-0 down at half-time more often than not. It was too high risk and I've felt hasn't really acknowledged the difference in ability between the sides enough.
Norwich at home we played brilliantly, we accepted they were much better than us before the game and lined up accordingly with 5 across the park and invited them to break us down. Whilst we were defeated I left that game feeling so much more positive than the QPR game, as we had a plan, stuck to it and it was working.
For me, should we have taken a more cautious approach this season I think we'd have a lot more points on the board by now. At the very least we may be feeling a little happier staying in games for longer.
‘Proven’
I don't think the game plan the other night was to put in so many terrible crosses.
The exact same game plan with, say half a dozen decent balls into the box would have seen us win that game.
Don't forget for all the talk of wanting a better style of play based around the ability of Anis Mehmeti, it was the current management team that signed him in the first place, who almost immediately promoted him to the first team squad, and who are continuing to pick him for championship matches.
I would expect that they have come to appreciate this season that the next time we are at this level we may need to develop a few ways of playing, and certainly one that involves us using the ball a lot better when we have it. The development of Mehmeti as a pivotal figure within that is part of it.
I just wish the tone of that email had been slightly different. If it had said something along the lines of "we appreciate we're up against some huge sides this season with huge resources but we're here on merit and while we're here we will give it everything we've got to stay here. And during that time everyone hold your heads high and be proud because we deserve to be here competing at the same level as those clubs" it would have just landed a lot better than the whole "these are my expectations and it's 'at least' Championship football" schtick.
And also maybe hire a crossing coach
So we've won every game we've played with this particular formation and style? I've watched every game barring Swansea and never spotted to magic formula. What is it exactly because you are being quite sketchy on the details? Have you thought about telling the manager?
For me, an obvious simpleton in the shadow of this great insight, we've quite simply been battling uphill against sides with more experienced squads at this level. When we've done the simple things right we've done ok. When we've made mistakes we haven't. Mistakes get punished at the level.
I can't work out if you haven't got the guts to call out the manager directly or you are really seeing something I'm not seeing.
Watford beat Liverpool 3-0 last season when Liverpool were flying. How do you explain that?
Did they play the right formation and style? I'm learning that that is a key factor. I am guessing Watford must have got it right that day but ignored the magic formula other days and got relegated.
@aloysius, do you think our sole problem this season was the manager then?
You seem keen to place the praise for the first wins on Dobbo, as if he just did whatever he fancied without any manager input, or the Chairman for the second set.
I'd say this season is basically par for what we should have achieved this season, in a context of injuries to key players at both ends of the pitch. Tafazolli and Uche being out for half the season were really big blows, as was covid hitting the camp at a bad time.
With them playing all season, and a bit more luck here and there, we may have scraped the opportunity to be say 8-10 points higher, but we'd have had to have had a lot go for us.
Was that the day Dobbo stood in for the Hornets coach?