For me, we have been up against better players and we've been inconsistent. I too struggled to see the massive difference in style or formation in the games we've won even with the genius that is Dobbo in control or Chairman's bollocking ringing in the players ears. As for that Ainsworth certain people have been telling me he is tactically inept and will never get us promoted for years now.
Interesting debate and I agree with many of the points raised. However, in my experience covering football at every level there is one issue that the vast majority of managers agree on: the game is not about tactics or style of play, it is about players. It sounds like a statement of the bleedin’ obvious, but if you have better players than the opposition you will probably win 9 times out of 10.
I look back to the home game against Stoke and remember looking at their subs bench. They had Ryan Shawcross, James McClean and Tom Ince in reserve. Three players with hundreds of Premier League appearances between them and a combined transfer value of more than £30m. Our bench included Burley, Linton and Mehmeti, three youngsters with almost no experience of senior football.
We simply don’t have the quality or experience to match that of the majority of our opponents. That is not saying we don’t deserve to be in the Championship because we most certainly do, it is just stating the facts.
@glasshalffull While I agree with most of that I’d say that one of the reasons football is great is that a team can beat a significantly better opponent because of the element of chance (which comes from goals being rare events.) It’s not like tennis or chess when the better player will win nearly all of their matches. But when there is such a mismatch of quality over every game of a league season...
@fame_46 said:
Last few games have been a difficult watch due to the inevitability of relegation.
I've found the last few games much easier to watch due to the inevitability of relegation - it no longer matters what the score is. We were relegated the day we didn't try to beat Birmingham which made me angrier than any Wycombe performance ever has.
@Right_in_the_Middle I don't think it's fair for you to consider yourself an obvious simpleton, you do occasionally show flashes of perspicacity. But I'm afraid if you and @Malone want to simply goad me into criticising Gareth Ainsworth you'll need to do it with a little more subtlety.
On formations I defer to @Commoner whose posts I find are the most illuminating on this board. I agree with his analysis of 451, it gives our defence more support, allows us to play with width and get our best players on the pitch in their natural positions. I don't understand why we play narrow formations so often, which never seem to do us any favours.
I'll also post one quote again from earlier in the season: "If you asked my biggest strength, I would love to say I see the game better than anyone, I'm more tactically astute, but I'd be lying. My biggest strengths are getting players organised, trusting my staff, galvanising my boys, getting them to achieve possibly more than they think they can."
Not my words, Gareth Ainsworth's. I'm glad he has been able to speak his truth.
If we are down already, as the consensus suggests, then how we use the remaining games is important to next seasons performance.
If I were Gaz(& of course I’m not) I would use these fixtures to experiment with formation, tactics and style of play that I believed may work to greatest effect in League One. So, I wouldn’t play any loanees even if they are better players, also I wouldn’t play anyone I was going to release (or sell?) then see what we discover and where we need reinforcements based on that learning.
If expectations (internal squad and back room, fans even Bobby C) can be managed then this could be a positive use of time and resource to motivate the chosen squad for next season, rather than the demoralising effect of yet more turgid one or two goal losses that only serve to expose our weaknesses at this level.
What’s the worst that can happen.
Banishing loanees or anyone unlikely to get a new contract won't happen, there are too many games and having our "prospects" play in a weaker team and get smashed every week isn't ideal experience. He'll continue to rotate for fitness, in pursuit of the odd point and to give everyone a go.
I'd like to see a bigger emphasis on passing play, not for possession or beautys sake, just because I don't think we'll get better in this division or the lower one without it. You can accept being overrun or overpowered to some extent but when simple passing is poor you can easily go into freefall.
I think we might need a bigger overhaul in the summer but if we start next season well anything is possible.
I haven’t read all this thread, but I don’t think @eric_plant has ever spoken a truer word. I wonder if we’ll end up seeing RC’s letter as Gareth’s ‘Ivor in the changing room,’ moment.
Things can change in football but can I remind people that Rob said ‘I have told Gareth and Dobbo that they have more job security than any other managers in professional football.’
@glasshalffull said:
Things can change in football but can I remind people that Rob said ‘I have told Gareth and Dobbo that they have more job security than any other managers in professional football.’
He did it indeed, although it didn't really chime with the tone of the rest of the email to me.
I'm more worried about the effect it would have had on Gaz and his willingness to stick around. I'd have been mightily pissed off if it was me, but I might just have thin skin, and it might be entirely in keeping with their relationship and how they operate. I certainly hope so.
Most people seem to have shrugged it off as not hugely significant so hopefully I'm just overreacting
@aloysius said: @Right_in_the_Middle I don't think it's fair for you to consider yourself an obvious simpleton, you do occasionally show flashes of perspicacity. But I'm afraid if you and @Malone want to simply goad me into criticising Gareth Ainsworth you'll need to do it with a little more subtlety.
I'll also post one quote again from earlier in the season: "If you asked my biggest strength, I would love to say I see the game better than anyone, I'm more tactically astute, but I'd be lying. My biggest strengths are getting players organised, trusting my staff, galvanising my boys, getting them to achieve possibly more than they think they can."
Not my words, Gareth Ainsworth's. I'm glad he has been able to speak his truth.
You really don't like our manager do you. Have some guts and say what you really want to say. By digging this quote out and talking about formations you are basically saying the same thing.
He has set our pitch up to be as narrow as possible yet you want width.
He says his skills are more around players than tactics. You want different tactics.
He believes in a longer ball tactics. You want it played on the floor.
He's our manager who sets the culture but you give Dobson and Couhig credit for any wins.
It's 'Ainsworth out' isn't it? Why do you continue to dress it up with a coat and a fancy hat?
With 11 games to go last season, Luton were bottom and Barnsley next to bottom and they both survived.
Luton’s final games: W4 D6 L1
Barnsley “ “ W4 D3 L4
The fat lady hasn’t even cleared her throat, all hope is not yet lost!
I was recently reliably told by many Gasroomers that there is no such thing as a club's natural level. Where is all this talk of being up against it against clubs with more money coming from?
I agree that it’s one hell of a task, but you can’t be certain and you have to remember that other clubs could go into the sort of nosedive that befell Hull last season.
@Shev said:
I was recently reliably told by many Gasroomers that there is no such thing as a club's natural level. Where is all this talk of being up against it against clubs with more money coming from?
Ok, we were non league for over 100 years so we'll just say that's our natural level shall we?
Our level is where we are at any given time. Talking of our "natural level" being bottom of league 1/top of league 2 during a season in which were in the championship is about as irrelevant point as you could make
@Shev said:
I was recently reliably told by many Gasroomers that there is no such thing as a club's natural level. Where is all this talk of being up against it against clubs with more money coming from?
Because the two things are not linked? Unless your idea of natural level is based purely on money. I think you did mention size of ground at one point so maybe you are looking at it from a different angle to me.
I like the idea that a club can achieve dreams. Just seems some like to moan about it straight after the dream is achieved (not you by the way)
@glasshalffull said:
I agree that it’s one hell of a task, but you can’t be certain and you have to remember that other clubs could go into the sort of nosedive that befell Hull last season.
Much as I would love to be proved wrong (and I really want to be forced to eat humble pie) I cannot see anything from the last five games to suggest that we have enough to get the points haul @eric_plant lays out there.
@Shev said:
I was recently reliably told by many Gasroomers that there is no such thing as a club's natural level. Where is all this talk of being up against it against clubs with more money coming from?
Ok, we were non league for over 100 years so we'll just say that's our natural level shall we?
Our level is where we are at any given time. Talking of our "natural level" being bottom of league 1/top of league 2 during a season in which were in the championship is about as irrelevant point as you could make
Okay, I'll try to clarify as to why it is relevant:
If our natural level is whatever level we are at: Our season is a colossal failure, and we have massively underachieved, with only 23 points against teams that we have no disadvantage against.
If our natural level is L1, L2 or in between: Our season is disappointing, but still a wonderful achievement for a club of our size, and we should still be proud of what we have been able to do given our small budget.
I am really astounded that this is seen as a controversial (or irrelevant) opinion. Agree to disagree, I suppose, but the fact so many think we naturally belong in the second tier, given our budget is 10% (or whatever) of the Championship average, is really amazing to me.
Comments
For me, we have been up against better players and we've been inconsistent. I too struggled to see the massive difference in style or formation in the games we've won even with the genius that is Dobbo in control or Chairman's bollocking ringing in the players ears. As for that Ainsworth certain people have been telling me he is tactically inept and will never get us promoted for years now.
Interesting debate and I agree with many of the points raised. However, in my experience covering football at every level there is one issue that the vast majority of managers agree on: the game is not about tactics or style of play, it is about players. It sounds like a statement of the bleedin’ obvious, but if you have better players than the opposition you will probably win 9 times out of 10.
I look back to the home game against Stoke and remember looking at their subs bench. They had Ryan Shawcross, James McClean and Tom Ince in reserve. Three players with hundreds of Premier League appearances between them and a combined transfer value of more than £30m. Our bench included Burley, Linton and Mehmeti, three youngsters with almost no experience of senior football.
We simply don’t have the quality or experience to match that of the majority of our opponents. That is not saying we don’t deserve to be in the Championship because we most certainly do, it is just stating the facts.
@glasshalffull While I agree with most of that I’d say that one of the reasons football is great is that a team can beat a significantly better opponent because of the element of chance (which comes from goals being rare events.) It’s not like tennis or chess when the better player will win nearly all of their matches. But when there is such a mismatch of quality over every game of a league season...
Just because Big Bobby Couhig says they're no gulf between us and Watford, and he wont accept it as an excuse, doesn't make it true.
The financials are there for all to see.
Thinking the way he does has certain advantages in overcoming the odds though.
I've found the last few games much easier to watch due to the inevitability of relegation - it no longer matters what the score is. We were relegated the day we didn't try to beat Birmingham which made me angrier than any Wycombe performance ever has.
@Right_in_the_Middle I don't think it's fair for you to consider yourself an obvious simpleton, you do occasionally show flashes of perspicacity. But I'm afraid if you and @Malone want to simply goad me into criticising Gareth Ainsworth you'll need to do it with a little more subtlety.
On formations I defer to @Commoner whose posts I find are the most illuminating on this board. I agree with his analysis of 451, it gives our defence more support, allows us to play with width and get our best players on the pitch in their natural positions. I don't understand why we play narrow formations so often, which never seem to do us any favours.
I'll also post one quote again from earlier in the season: "If you asked my biggest strength, I would love to say I see the game better than anyone, I'm more tactically astute, but I'd be lying. My biggest strengths are getting players organised, trusting my staff, galvanising my boys, getting them to achieve possibly more than they think they can."
Not my words, Gareth Ainsworth's. I'm glad he has been able to speak his truth.
If we are down already, as the consensus suggests, then how we use the remaining games is important to next seasons performance.
If I were Gaz(& of course I’m not) I would use these fixtures to experiment with formation, tactics and style of play that I believed may work to greatest effect in League One. So, I wouldn’t play any loanees even if they are better players, also I wouldn’t play anyone I was going to release (or sell?) then see what we discover and where we need reinforcements based on that learning.
If expectations (internal squad and back room, fans even Bobby C) can be managed then this could be a positive use of time and resource to motivate the chosen squad for next season, rather than the demoralising effect of yet more turgid one or two goal losses that only serve to expose our weaknesses at this level.
What’s the worst that can happen.
Don’t agree. Whilst survival is unlikely, it is still mathematically possible and that has to be the number one priority.
Banishing loanees or anyone unlikely to get a new contract won't happen, there are too many games and having our "prospects" play in a weaker team and get smashed every week isn't ideal experience. He'll continue to rotate for fitness, in pursuit of the odd point and to give everyone a go.
I'd like to see a bigger emphasis on passing play, not for possession or beautys sake, just because I don't think we'll get better in this division or the lower one without it. You can accept being overrun or overpowered to some extent but when simple passing is poor you can easily go into freefall.
I think we might need a bigger overhaul in the summer but if we start next season well anything is possible.
I haven’t read all this thread, but I don’t think @eric_plant has ever spoken a truer word. I wonder if we’ll end up seeing RC’s letter as Gareth’s ‘Ivor in the changing room,’ moment.
Things can change in football but can I remind people that Rob said ‘I have told Gareth and Dobbo that they have more job security than any other managers in professional football.’
Agreed and I'd that points deductions are never off the radar and it would unforgivable to not try to get as many points as possible.
I'd venture that last season we proved we know what it takes to succeed at League One level.
He did it indeed, although it didn't really chime with the tone of the rest of the email to me.
I'm more worried about the effect it would have had on Gaz and his willingness to stick around. I'd have been mightily pissed off if it was me, but I might just have thin skin, and it might be entirely in keeping with their relationship and how they operate. I certainly hope so.
Most people seem to have shrugged it off as not hugely significant so hopefully I'm just overreacting
You really don't like our manager do you. Have some guts and say what you really want to say. By digging this quote out and talking about formations you are basically saying the same thing.
He has set our pitch up to be as narrow as possible yet you want width.
He says his skills are more around players than tactics. You want different tactics.
He believes in a longer ball tactics. You want it played on the floor.
He's our manager who sets the culture but you give Dobson and Couhig credit for any wins.
It's 'Ainsworth out' isn't it? Why do you continue to dress it up with a coat and a fancy hat?
With 11 games to go last season, Luton were bottom and Barnsley next to bottom and they both survived.
Luton’s final games: W4 D6 L1
Barnsley “ “ W4 D3 L4
The fat lady hasn’t even cleared her throat, all hope is not yet lost!
I was recently reliably told by many Gasroomers that there is no such thing as a club's natural level. Where is all this talk of being up against it against clubs with more money coming from?
15 and 18 points
Would see us finish on 38 or 41. Wouldn't be nearly enough to stay up
I reckon 47 or 48 points will be the safety mark this season, which would mean winning 8 of our remaining 11 games
Actually looking at our goal difference more likely to be 48 so 8 wins and a draw from 11 games
I agree that it’s one hell of a task, but you can’t be certain and you have to remember that other clubs could go into the sort of nosedive that befell Hull last season.
Ok, we were non league for over 100 years so we'll just say that's our natural level shall we?
Our level is where we are at any given time. Talking of our "natural level" being bottom of league 1/top of league 2 during a season in which were in the championship is about as irrelevant point as you could make
Because the two things are not linked? Unless your idea of natural level is based purely on money. I think you did mention size of ground at one point so maybe you are looking at it from a different angle to me.
I like the idea that a club can achieve dreams. Just seems some like to moan about it straight after the dream is achieved (not you by the way)
Having a well run stable club with aspirations to improve on and off the pitch every year for people to go and see...that's the level I like.
Much as I would love to be proved wrong (and I really want to be forced to eat humble pie) I cannot see anything from the last five games to suggest that we have enough to get the points haul @eric_plant lays out there.
That ship has sailed though hasn't it. We didn't even try to get as many points as possible against an abysmal Birmingham.
I would suggest you try to forgive the club for it though, we need the support.
For those into betting, what odds on Wycombe to stay up?
At a complete guess I’d say 80/1.
I just checked. 1/500 to be relegated! Ouch.
Okay, I'll try to clarify as to why it is relevant:
If our natural level is whatever level we are at: Our season is a colossal failure, and we have massively underachieved, with only 23 points against teams that we have no disadvantage against.
If our natural level is L1, L2 or in between: Our season is disappointing, but still a wonderful achievement for a club of our size, and we should still be proud of what we have been able to do given our small budget.
I am really astounded that this is seen as a controversial (or irrelevant) opinion. Agree to disagree, I suppose, but the fact so many think we naturally belong in the second tier, given our budget is 10% (or whatever) of the Championship average, is really amazing to me.
I have never seen any evidence that the players and management are not trying. Never
Amazes me that people can't tell the difference between playing shit and not trying to win