@sandsexile: He has already done precisely that. He has renounced his British citizenship, taken a Republic of Ireland passport and moved to England. Interesting character
And sorry for using the 'G' word out of context. As we appear to have some sensitive and easily offended souls (damn) on here apologies to those who may think I've disrespected their belief system of choice
One of the things we in Britain should be most proud of is the right to free speech and freedom of thought.
Even if we believe that Mcclean has abused the flag (which in my honest opinion he has not, merely opting out of a contrived political act to express allegience to a flag and song he doesn't believe in) surely we should rejoice in British values of free speech permitting expression of ideas we do not agree with.
Or is free speech now to be defined as you may speak freely as long as you agree with my agenda.
@Tory_Goon said:
He should have stood still as a mark of respect for any national anthem. He doesn't have to sing after all. In an International match a blatant disregard for a national flag would be unacceptable so there is already precedent.
As for his general attitude, I find it utterly hypocritical that he chooses to earn a living in England, where HM Queen reigns sovereign. If he doesn't like that then he should ply his craft in a country where that is not the position. It's his choice. As it is he wants to have his cake and eat it. He's a hypocrite.
Tottaly agree, it's hypocritical period. If I hold a grudge or reservations about the French and their revolution due to my ancestors being hung drawn quartered I don't "move there" then turn my back when they play "La Marseillaise", while playing for PSG abroad versus USA
Keep Politics out of Sports, but I'm a hypocritical because I'm anti Russia World Cup damn (won't be watching it) ... its difficult to say the least.
@eric_plant I think you are letting your imagination run riot a little. I can see plenty of people who disagree with his actions, but has anyone questioned his right to express an opinion? James McClean hasn't just struck some righteous victory for freedom of speech, he's just an angry man looking back to the 70's and beyond when lots of people are trying to move forward . let's all celebrate the fact that he can do so.
As a republican and an atheist I find it difficult to get past the first line of our national anthem.
But I'll usually stand up and quietly pretend to myself its not happening as a lot of people seem to think its important and I don't really give a toss, one way or the other.
It is a ridiculous parallel that some have been drawing. We haven't been at war with Germany for 70 years, while the British government still to this day controls the six counties.
I am a republican who never sings GSTQ. Technically, I was born in the UK, just like Mcclean. Fail to see why this disqualifies me from living in England.
@Lenin : I think those criticising McClean just regard him as a bit selective about where his redlines are. The singing of the national anthem is not a test of citizenship, but if you can't behave with courtesy, because of an inbuilt disrespect of the regime you consider it represents, then why ply your trade there. There are other ways to protest and this just comes across as being all about McClean not any overarching cause - though his open letter about Poppy Day did make sense. Of course in a liberal western democracy these are relatively trivial matters, but to try and attach any sort of high principle to the conduct is also a bit silly. I don't imagine the Bogside has ever been a place where freedom of speech is upheld.
@Lenin said:
I am a republican who never sings GSTQ. Technically, I was born in the UK, just like Mcclean. Fail to see why this disqualifies me from living in England.
But would you turn your back while anthem is being played, that's the question? and hence this debate, which I assure you is more than likely being addressed/mentioned on a number of Fans forums.
So you are saying his protest was against the suggestion the anthem was for 'his team?' In both games the teams were expected to stand for both anthems. I would suggest that he made that choice because he was a coward rather than a man of principle (what better time to have made his point thsn in Dublin?).
@DevC Bad point. Ridiculous to say that it was 'a contrived political act to express allegience to a flag'. The playing of the British anthem at that friendly was merely an act of welcome from the US hosts like the people of Coutances displayong the British glag. You mentalism grows and grows
@eric_plant when I was at university in Leeds the BNP hijacked the free speech society violently. It is a great thing that someone can turn their back on a national anthem and the worst that happens is that it is debated on a discussion board. When I lived in the Philippines if this had been done all hell (a World War) could have broken loose.
So you are saying his protest was against the suggestion the anthem was for 'his team?'
Yes - I'd have thought his motivation was to make clear that the song doesn't represent him or his beliefs. But as I say, this is just a guess. You'd have to ask him.
If you watch the video, the players were expected to turn to face the flag while the national anthem was played. This is common practise in US sports games as an act of demonstrating allegiance to the flag. The flag in turn symbolises the state. The act of turning to demonstrate allegiance to the state is plainly a political act.
If you watch the video McClean is plainly caught in a dilemna initially turning, understanding what is going on and then seeking to quietly dusassociate himself from the action staring down at all times.
For most of us of course, the act in question would either be a welcome chance to demonstrate allegiance or at least a relatively harmless one. If we accept freedom of thought however , we have to accept that for some, however much we disagree with them, it is a gesture of allegiance they are not willing to give to a state whose actions they passionately disagree with.
So what was Mcclean supposed to do, perform a hypocritical political act contrary to his belief system just t keep the baying masses happy or quietly refuse to do so to stay true to his own beliefs.
I agree what a great country it is that allows that freedom of expression to express views we may find obnoxious without fear of punishment. Lets not lose that freedom just because at times those viees may make us uncomfortable.
I imagine he wasn't told the event would be happening.
What was he supposed to do if he didn't want to pay homage to the British flag and Queen, and was put on the spot like that?
I think his action of turning away was the least disrespectful or volatile in the circumstances.
He could have walked to the sideline of the pitch, or even off the pitch and down the tunnel completely until it finished. It would still be understandable.
I do not observe the national anthem. I am anti-monarchist, anti-theist, and think it is a dreadful tune anyway.
As a proud Englishman though, I'll be damned if I'm going to be told that means I'm not worthy of being in this country. I don't see why we should apply a different set of rules or standards to an Irishman.
@robin Quiet news week and a topic of interest to those supporters who are a little less insular. You don't have to read it if it doesn't interest you.
Comments
@sandsexile: He has already done precisely that. He has renounced his British citizenship, taken a Republic of Ireland passport and moved to England. Interesting character
And sorry for using the 'G' word out of context. As we appear to have some sensitive and easily offended souls (damn) on here apologies to those who may think I've disrespected their belief system of choice
One of the things we in Britain should be most proud of is the right to free speech and freedom of thought.
Even if we believe that Mcclean has abused the flag (which in my honest opinion he has not, merely opting out of a contrived political act to express allegience to a flag and song he doesn't believe in) surely we should rejoice in British values of free speech permitting expression of ideas we do not agree with.
Or is free speech now to be defined as you may speak freely as long as you agree with my agenda.
good point Dev - I imagine some of those berating McClean were all "je suis Charlie" not long ago
Tottaly agree, it's hypocritical period. If I hold a grudge or reservations about the French and their revolution due to my ancestors being hung drawn quartered I don't "move there" then turn my back when they play "La Marseillaise", while playing for PSG abroad versus USA
Keep Politics out of Sports, but I'm a hypocritical because I'm anti Russia World Cup damn (won't be watching it) ... its difficult to say the least.
@eric_plant I think you are letting your imagination run riot a little. I can see plenty of people who disagree with his actions, but has anyone questioned his right to express an opinion? James McClean hasn't just struck some righteous victory for freedom of speech, he's just an angry man looking back to the 70's and beyond when lots of people are trying to move forward . let's all celebrate the fact that he can do so.
As a republican and an atheist I find it difficult to get past the first line of our national anthem.
But I'll usually stand up and quietly pretend to myself its not happening as a lot of people seem to think its important and I don't really give a toss, one way or the other.
@Ed_ yeah, they have a bit
Exactly. That and pubs.
And the Krankies
And Bluey the Swan.
It is a ridiculous parallel that some have been drawing. We haven't been at war with Germany for 70 years, while the British government still to this day controls the six counties.
I am a republican who never sings GSTQ. Technically, I was born in the UK, just like Mcclean. Fail to see why this disqualifies me from living in England.
@Lenin : I think those criticising McClean just regard him as a bit selective about where his redlines are. The singing of the national anthem is not a test of citizenship, but if you can't behave with courtesy, because of an inbuilt disrespect of the regime you consider it represents, then why ply your trade there. There are other ways to protest and this just comes across as being all about McClean not any overarching cause - though his open letter about Poppy Day did make sense. Of course in a liberal western democracy these are relatively trivial matters, but to try and attach any sort of high principle to the conduct is also a bit silly. I don't imagine the Bogside has ever been a place where freedom of speech is upheld.
But would you turn your back while anthem is being played, that's the question? and hence this debate, which I assure you is more than likely being addressed/mentioned on a number of Fans forums.
Does anyone know why McLean chose to do this in a friendly in America, but not in the recent Ireland v England international?
I'm guessing because it was his team's anthem, rather than the opposition. Could be wrong.
So you are saying his protest was against the suggestion the anthem was for 'his team?' In both games the teams were expected to stand for both anthems. I would suggest that he made that choice because he was a coward rather than a man of principle (what better time to have made his point thsn in Dublin?).
@DevC Bad point. Ridiculous to say that it was 'a contrived political act to express allegience to a flag'. The playing of the British anthem at that friendly was merely an act of welcome from the US hosts like the people of Coutances displayong the British glag. You mentalism grows and grows
@eric_plant when I was at university in Leeds the BNP hijacked the free speech society violently. It is a great thing that someone can turn their back on a national anthem and the worst that happens is that it is debated on a discussion board. When I lived in the Philippines if this had been done all hell (a World War) could have broken loose.
So you are saying his protest was against the suggestion the anthem was for 'his team?'
Yes - I'd have thought his motivation was to make clear that the song doesn't represent him or his beliefs. But as I say, this is just a guess. You'd have to ask him.
@LX1 I agree - it is a fantastic thing
A quick one in response to LX.
If you watch the video, the players were expected to turn to face the flag while the national anthem was played. This is common practise in US sports games as an act of demonstrating allegiance to the flag. The flag in turn symbolises the state. The act of turning to demonstrate allegiance to the state is plainly a political act.
If you watch the video McClean is plainly caught in a dilemna initially turning, understanding what is going on and then seeking to quietly dusassociate himself from the action staring down at all times.
For most of us of course, the act in question would either be a welcome chance to demonstrate allegiance or at least a relatively harmless one. If we accept freedom of thought however , we have to accept that for some, however much we disagree with them, it is a gesture of allegiance they are not willing to give to a state whose actions they passionately disagree with.
So what was Mcclean supposed to do, perform a hypocritical political act contrary to his belief system just t keep the baying masses happy or quietly refuse to do so to stay true to his own beliefs.
I agree what a great country it is that allows that freedom of expression to express views we may find obnoxious without fear of punishment. Lets not lose that freedom just because at times those viees may make us uncomfortable.
Lol. Neither quick nor a response to me
I imagine he wasn't told the event would be happening.
What was he supposed to do if he didn't want to pay homage to the British flag and Queen, and was put on the spot like that?
I think his action of turning away was the least disrespectful or volatile in the circumstances.
He could have walked to the sideline of the pitch, or even off the pitch and down the tunnel completely until it finished. It would still be understandable.
I do not observe the national anthem. I am anti-monarchist, anti-theist, and think it is a dreadful tune anyway.
As a proud Englishman though, I'll be damned if I'm going to be told that means I'm not worthy of being in this country. I don't see why we should apply a different set of rules or standards to an Irishman.
@LX1 It was to you in response to your post adressed to me on the page above and was as quick as I could make it!
I don't understand why so many Wycombe fans give a shit about this as he doesn't play for us.
@robin Quiet news week and a topic of interest to those supporters who are a little less insular. You don't have to read it if it doesn't interest you.
Can't really understand why so many posts about this. It was only the National Anthem for goodness sake.
He's lost thousands at the cash point every time the money is dispensed covered in images of British imperialism he naturally turns away..'yoink'.
@bill_stickers Who has told you you aren't worthy? And in what way was standing for a national anthem 'paying homage'?