I don't disagree but I think the idea was for the regulator to start enforcing where the league can't or won't, much to be seen if this happens at all and if it does any good but think it needs someone to try.
If the ITV Digital mess didn't focus minds, and Bury and others since, then not much will to be fair.
I think it is well intentioned don't get me wrong. But we all know the first club they sanction will appeal and then we go round and round. And all regulators are frightened of expensive lawyers countering them. So expected IMMEDIATE POINTS DEDUCTION*
I work with regulators, it won't be quick or easy but they'll need to encourage/ shame / force / clubs into accepting a better code of practice that can't be messed with or denied after and that comes with huge powers to fine and relegate.
Haven't these "loans" and "Payments" for wages & HMRC been covered by this new party? If Reading's owner was to look elsewhere, does that mean that they will lose out or will they then be chasing Reading FC for repayment?
But unless they are given real sanctions and use those sanctions (and as football fans we accept those sanctions are correct without crying that a club is being victimised and football clubs are more important than other institutions so should fall foul of the normal rules) what's the point.
HMRC is a good example. So why does Joe Bloggs the builder get shut down for failure to pay PAYE/NI/VAT but they allow a football club to get years behind? And as I always bore people that is money they have collected from someone else - not a tax on profits etc. They won't go after a football club as it is community sensitive and the owners know that. So they would rather pay Superstar Striker and use HMRC to fund it.
I just think if the king's collector of tax can't get good governance some poor regulator ain't got a chance.
The football family needs to FULLY accept good governance. And as soon as 1 club out of 92 doesn't the house of cards falls apart.
No one seems to know for sure. But it APPEARS that the training ground and the current owners shares are being used as security for the loans. So if the parties fall out now they might take it over by way of getting the assets?
Either way it seems like the celebrations and the lists of new signings to lead their promotion charge might be premature.
We all know that the Man City situation will not be finished in October after the hearing. If all of the 115 charges are proven, they will then appeal. This whole situation could end up going to Court of Sport Arbitration and that'll take up to 24 - 48 months to go through that court.
Also the thing that annoys me with HMRC is that if clubs leave it long enough and owe £50 million or whatever, they are happy to settle for a significantly lower amount. If any normal person withheld their outstanding tax bill, HMRC would chase for every penny but not with football clubs?
Have to be a bit careful what we wish for here. I'm all for leeway for struggling smaller clubs but these ex Prem juggernauts of clubs use it to their advantage and take the piss.
"Joe Bloggs" say's he's going to pay it back shouldn't be a good enough excuse for spending three times your earnings on wages.
One thing that has been kept very quiet recently amid lots of talk of redistribution and changes to parachute payments is the football creditor rule, it gives protection to selling clubs and players but gives carte blanche to shaft everyone else and prioritise the industry. Not sure it helps set good practice.
My understanding regards the loans given to the club is:-
One loan was against Bearwood, probably only part of it as it unlikely the loan would be for the whole value of the training ground.
The second loan was secured against 2 million or so shares, nobody seems to know how many shares the club (Dai) still own.
As far as I know no loan was taken out against the Stadium.
So, if the deal falls through the "would be new owners" would own all or part of Bearwood, also part/all (?) of the club.
They would then own in full or part a club and training ground without a stadium in which to play home games. Most likely outcome in my view is the EFL will say enough is enough, show us you will fund the club for two years, We won't be able to so we get kicked out of the League and the club gets liquidated. I thought that the Maxwell/Thames Valley Royals (or more likely Thames Valley United) was bad enough, but I really am fearing the worst for the club I have supported for well over half a century. This time it seems to be be the buyers who are causing the issues-whatever they are-so I can only assume that they have found a skeleton in the cupboard. Or is it Dai saying get a move on or else! What concerns me a lot is that the new owners haven't passed the EFL's test yet, so this could drag on for months yet, which will have an impact on next season as I can see players and the manager getting out of it as soon as they can. And who can blame them? It looks like I may have to change my name to The ExRoyalBisciut.
The football creditor rule is another example of football finance not being in the real world. It also shines a light on the madness of transfer dealings. What do you mean you still owe a team for a player that you signed 2 years ago and you have since sold onto another club????
You could always sell the training ground to survive.
Too soon?
In all seriousness I wish you luck. I also hope that this once again is a wake up call for those (including MPs) who started planning the route of the promotion parade when this latest takeover was announced.
The idea that Joe Bloggs always gets chased and made to pay is only true of income tax / NI, there are plenty of people out there trading through shell companies who rack up VAT and tax deficits, go bankrupt, move onto the next shell company. It's not illegal to be a bad businessman and have your limited liability company fail leaving a trail of debt, it's not illegal to try again, it's not illegal to fail again. There are bookkeepers who specialise in handling the affairs of such 'unfortunate' would be captains of industry.
@Ed_ generally after the second or third such default the revenue &/or Companies House apply to have directors debarred for a number of years, thus preventing them participating in the money merry go round for a while.
It is definitely concerning, whether it's a game of brinksmanship from the selling and/or buying parties or because the would-be buyers have been found out. Hopefully a way out can be found that can put Reading on sounder footing than the insanity of the past decade or so.
@Erroll_Sims Thanks for the reply old bean, it's good to know that after a few attempts they at least have to get a couple of family members to front the next doomed venture.
Indeed @Ed_ it is a bit of a piss poor deterrant; as they just get their wife or son or whatever to frony up for them, or a la Maxwell make their corporate structure so complicated that it took me & my colleagues & various FT journos close to 12 months to completely unravel it when the shit started to hit the fan.
If a new (probably American) Reading owner wanted to do some kind deal to resurrect the training ground sale and announcing their thanks to RC at the same time that they announce the takeover that could be very funny. Could mean a range of things though or be complete rubbish.
Perhaps Lomtadze will want the extremely suitable training ground for his youth development desires? Rob to offer his new “expertise” on running a football club training ground in return for a small fee?
Comments
I don't disagree but I think the idea was for the regulator to start enforcing where the league can't or won't, much to be seen if this happens at all and if it does any good but think it needs someone to try.
If the ITV Digital mess didn't focus minds, and Bury and others since, then not much will to be fair.
I think it is well intentioned don't get me wrong. But we all know the first club they sanction will appeal and then we go round and round. And all regulators are frightened of expensive lawyers countering them. So expected IMMEDIATE POINTS DEDUCTION*
*suspended for six months
I work with regulators, it won't be quick or easy but they'll need to encourage/ shame / force / clubs into accepting a better code of practice that can't be messed with or denied after and that comes with huge powers to fine and relegate.
Haven't these "loans" and "Payments" for wages & HMRC been covered by this new party? If Reading's owner was to look elsewhere, does that mean that they will lose out or will they then be chasing Reading FC for repayment?
But unless they are given real sanctions and use those sanctions (and as football fans we accept those sanctions are correct without crying that a club is being victimised and football clubs are more important than other institutions so should fall foul of the normal rules) what's the point.
HMRC is a good example. So why does Joe Bloggs the builder get shut down for failure to pay PAYE/NI/VAT but they allow a football club to get years behind? And as I always bore people that is money they have collected from someone else - not a tax on profits etc. They won't go after a football club as it is community sensitive and the owners know that. So they would rather pay Superstar Striker and use HMRC to fund it.
I just think if the king's collector of tax can't get good governance some poor regulator ain't got a chance.
The football family needs to FULLY accept good governance. And as soon as 1 club out of 92 doesn't the house of cards falls apart.
No one seems to know for sure. But it APPEARS that the training ground and the current owners shares are being used as security for the loans. So if the parties fall out now they might take it over by way of getting the assets?
Either way it seems like the celebrations and the lists of new signings to lead their promotion charge might be premature.
We all know that the Man City situation will not be finished in October after the hearing. If all of the 115 charges are proven, they will then appeal. This whole situation could end up going to Court of Sport Arbitration and that'll take up to 24 - 48 months to go through that court.
Also the thing that annoys me with HMRC is that if clubs leave it long enough and owe £50 million or whatever, they are happy to settle for a significantly lower amount. If any normal person withheld their outstanding tax bill, HMRC would chase for every penny but not with football clubs?
Thought there wasn't an appeal available for this particular ruling.
Have to be a bit careful what we wish for here. I'm all for leeway for struggling smaller clubs but these ex Prem juggernauts of clubs use it to their advantage and take the piss.
"Joe Bloggs" say's he's going to pay it back shouldn't be a good enough excuse for spending three times your earnings on wages.
One thing that has been kept very quiet recently amid lots of talk of redistribution and changes to parachute payments is the football creditor rule, it gives protection to selling clubs and players but gives carte blanche to shaft everyone else and prioritise the industry. Not sure it helps set good practice.
My understanding regards the loans given to the club is:-
One loan was against Bearwood, probably only part of it as it unlikely the loan would be for the whole value of the training ground.
The second loan was secured against 2 million or so shares, nobody seems to know how many shares the club (Dai) still own.
As far as I know no loan was taken out against the Stadium.
So, if the deal falls through the "would be new owners" would own all or part of Bearwood, also part/all (?) of the club.
They would then own in full or part a club and training ground without a stadium in which to play home games. Most likely outcome in my view is the EFL will say enough is enough, show us you will fund the club for two years, We won't be able to so we get kicked out of the League and the club gets liquidated. I thought that the Maxwell/Thames Valley Royals (or more likely Thames Valley United) was bad enough, but I really am fearing the worst for the club I have supported for well over half a century. This time it seems to be be the buyers who are causing the issues-whatever they are-so I can only assume that they have found a skeleton in the cupboard. Or is it Dai saying get a move on or else! What concerns me a lot is that the new owners haven't passed the EFL's test yet, so this could drag on for months yet, which will have an impact on next season as I can see players and the manager getting out of it as soon as they can. And who can blame them? It looks like I may have to change my name to The ExRoyalBisciut.
The football creditor rule is another example of football finance not being in the real world. It also shines a light on the madness of transfer dealings. What do you mean you still owe a team for a player that you signed 2 years ago and you have since sold onto another club????
You could always sell the training ground to survive.
Too soon?
In all seriousness I wish you luck. I also hope that this once again is a wake up call for those (including MPs) who started planning the route of the promotion parade when this latest takeover was announced.
Best of luck @theRoyalBiscuit Hope it all works out in the end.
The idea that Joe Bloggs always gets chased and made to pay is only true of income tax / NI, there are plenty of people out there trading through shell companies who rack up VAT and tax deficits, go bankrupt, move onto the next shell company. It's not illegal to be a bad businessman and have your limited liability company fail leaving a trail of debt, it's not illegal to try again, it's not illegal to fail again. There are bookkeepers who specialise in handling the affairs of such 'unfortunate' would be captains of industry.
@Ed_ generally after the second or third such default the revenue &/or Companies House apply to have directors debarred for a number of years, thus preventing them participating in the money merry go round for a while.
Owe the £20,000 in taxes you have a serious problem with the taxman , owe him £200 million he does with you.
my paraphrasing of JMK.
It is definitely concerning, whether it's a game of brinksmanship from the selling and/or buying parties or because the would-be buyers have been found out. Hopefully a way out can be found that can put Reading on sounder footing than the insanity of the past decade or so.
@Erroll_Sims Thanks for the reply old bean, it's good to know that after a few attempts they at least have to get a couple of family members to front the next doomed venture.
Indeed @Ed_ it is a bit of a piss poor deterrant; as they just get their wife or son or whatever to frony up for them, or a la Maxwell make their corporate structure so complicated that it took me & my colleagues & various FT journos close to 12 months to completely unravel it when the shit started to hit the fan.
I will always answer you @micra . However, don’t get angry as we both know from our health experiences that this is only football. Have a nice day.
Latest from Twitter…wonder if there’s any truth in this. His posts over the past week or two make for an interesting story.
I hear they did not want the training ground, and were also upset at a missing bedsheet from the hotel.
According to a journalist and Reading ITK ‘Courtney Friday’ Rob Couhig is currently at the SCL Stadium with a potential purchaser of Reading FC..
FC Biscuit Swans incoming....
If a new (probably American) Reading owner wanted to do some kind deal to resurrect the training ground sale and announcing their thanks to RC at the same time that they announce the takeover that could be very funny. Could mean a range of things though or be complete rubbish.
I do think cohig and the new owners have fingers in various pies at the moment, 100% a cunning plan to get hold of the training ground we will see….
I think we’re done with it and the Reading supporters are in full panic mode but..
Perhaps Lomtadze will want the extremely suitable training ground for his youth development desires? Rob to offer his new “expertise” on running a football club training ground in return for a small fee?
There is still the planning permission issue. If he wanted the training ground it would've been much easier for him to buy Reading