I think Starmer has a better chance of winning a general election than Jeremy Corbyn, and winning the general election should be by miles the highest priority of any opposition.
As it happens I think the most urgent thing we need in this country is electoral reform, and a government that represents the country, rather than one that is granted a massive majority on the votes of 24% of the electorate because they won some marginal seats with the votes of a few thousand people.
Imagine how engaged you could get people in politics of their votes actually counted
I think Starmer has a chance of winning the next general election because really who couldn't beat the tories after all this, but I think if he'd been in charge at the 2019 one he'd have been absolutely annihilated because who votes for wallpaper. The big clue that he's actually one of them is that after his first PMQs both the labour and tory WhatsApp groups sent round the exact same briefing on what to tweet, so we had the unedifying spectacle of tory and labour MPs posting identical tweets about how "forensic" he was. Why would both parties want him leading? Because he's shit and nothing will change for the billionaires if he wins. So who was the WhatsApp briefing to both parties actually from I wonder.
I don’t disagree that a change away from first past the post would bring about a fairer representation of who people actually voted for, but the Tories only allowed that vote because the Lib Dems pushed for it.
Turnout was poor last time, as was voting in favour of the motion.
I agree that Starmer is more electable than Corbyn if only because to Joe Public, Corbyn perhaps came across as not being proud to be British - which may seem trite to many, but certainly went like a cup of cold sick in many regions. Starmer has clearly tried to distance himself from that, however cheesy all the “Union Jack in the background” photos may seem.
And sadly personalities do matter - I believe there was a decent sized poll done once where ordinary people were consulted as to what they thought of a range of Corbyn manifesto promises and asked whether they’d vote for them - a lot of positivity towards the policies themselves, without the party proposing them being revealed - then asked about voting intentions/perceptions of party leaders, and Corbyn got slated.
I don’t know what the answer is, but in the absence of proportional representation, and with the SNP having smashed Labour in Scotland, I can’t see anything other than a Lib/Lab coalition getting rid of the Tories, but I can’t see that happening.
I’m in favour of PR, but also painfully aware of how ignorant, gullible, racist and sometimes just plain stupid so many of the voters are. A sizeable number of them voted to cut ties with our largest trading block and destroy the economy just because foreigners.
You can forgive a politician for a lack of principles or a lack of political savvy but Starmer has neither. I’ll still be voting Labour.
Winning elections is vital but also of little relevance if you don’t make sufficient difference when you do win them. Politics isn’t sport - it matters who wins beyond just the winning. The reason we’ve ended up with Brexit is because it somehow became the only alternative to establishment politics. Labour needed to make more of a difference when they were in power.
And in any case I don’t know many Labour centrists that are electorally appealing - none with the charisma of Johnson. Burnham is a better candidate now than he was in 2015.
I wonder if we'll see the real Keir Starmer once the next Tory / PM is selected? Now that he'll have someone who might challenge him rather than sitting back and letting Boris dig his own grave?
I remember going to work on the morning of the 2019 election. Most of my colleagues are not particularly politically engaged but I realised within 5 minutes that despite any polls suggesting a close race, Corbyn was going to get hammered.
They really did believe he was a sinister character who would always take the side of a terrorist over a British soldier, had never done a real job, hated the Jews and (biggest crime of all) had appointed Diane Abbot.
I remember gently (cos there’s no point in ranting) trying to persuade colleagues that Corbyn would be far more interested in improving their lot than an old Etonian, but it was impossible to get past the image he was saddled with.
Part of that was his own fault. Because he hated the media (with good reason, TBF) he wouldn’t engage, wouldn’t hire people who had half a chance with attempting to manage press and spent far too much time preaching to the converted. He also has to take his share of the blame for the advent, if not the delivery, of brexit.
Don’t forget that despite woeful sales, print media still sets the news agenda. Sky & BBC news start with ‘the papers’, which are then picked up by the breakfast news programmes and off we go.
One thing I’ve learned living on the southern border of the red wall, with its swing seats, is that if you give the impression you’re not proud of Britain, disrespectful towards the Queen and and the armed forces, you might as well pack up and go home. Sir Keith’s flag fest is based solely on this. I don’t care for any of this, but he is attempting to deal with reality. Unfortunately, he is stupefyingly dull, robotic, uninspiring and appears to have little more to offer than more of the same but delivered competently.
I will still vote Labour regardless, as a vote for anyone else will simply return a Tory again.
On the plus side, today was a real sea change. I have never heard so many people displaying outright hostility towards the tories. I’m shocked it’s taken this long for the penny to drop about this current lot, but there’s no doubt that it finally has.
I can only begin to imagine the level of corruption Johnson will carry out before the end of September.
I like the idea of PR until I remember low turnout and the detested EU voting system provided Beery Nigel and bunch of other boozy lazy lechers two decades of two homes in europe, a nice salary and a massive pension for literally doing nowt.
Not bad but James O’Brien does it better and, generally speaking, without the histrionics. Yesterday morning excepted when three years’ pent-up anger broke the banks.
Just so you know @micra, Jonathan Pie is a comedy character played as a political news reporter who delivers rants while the VT is rolling and then pulls himself together just as they go back on air. Full video here gives you the context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKrLBPmRsrM
Frank Lampard quite rightly tore James O'Brien to shreds some years ago and I've never really been able to get onboard with him since.
O'Brien called Frank Lampard "scum" based on the "evidence" of an article in The Sun, which surprise surprise turned out to be bullshit. It was on the anniversary of the death of Frank's mother, and understandably the family were very upset. Lampard actually phoned into his show and dealt with him perfectly.
There's a clip of it on youtube I think, or at least there was.
Thanks @drcongo. Yes, I was familiar with the character from previous postings on here. Not a great fan of expletive-splattered rants but there are times (Zeitgeist?) when they are fully justified, To be honest, anyone tuning in to James just after 10.00 am yesterday could have been excused for thinking he was a comedy character.
My perception of PR is that it is likely to lead to more coalitions and whilst the theory of coalition is always great the reality is usually political log jams and more elections.
Some form of PR is just right. Why should your vote only really count if you live in one of around 120 constituencies?
Yes, it gives a leg up to fuckwits like Laurence Fox and the like, but sadly some people do like them and that’s the price you have to pay. And in all honesty they’re not much worse than the likes of Patel & Rees-Mogg.
The concept of Frank Lampard tearing James O’Brien to shreds rhetorically (if that is the suggestion) is very hard to get the head round. I reacted similarly about two years ago when you trotted out the same comment in response to my positive reaction to James O’Brien during the early stages of the pandemic. I’m from a traditionally Conservative voting background and have voted Conservative in the past so the eye-opening effect that James has had on me (as apolitical a person as you’re likely to meet) is extraordinary.
The circumstances of the exchange with Frank Lampard (as you describe them) do not, prima facie, reflect well on James. But one of the things I admire most about him is his readiness (developed, as he himself admits, mostly during the past 2-3 years) to acknowledge his past mistakes and misconceptions. The timing, context and nature of our respective first (or early) encounters with James are clearly very different.
I’ve not had LBC on this morning. Need a break from the whole schmozzle until things settle down a bit.
Absolutely, I can't see how you can be an advocate for PR on one hand because it will help promote representation for your own view whilst at the same time critise it for giving differing views representation. I'd rather a couple of crackpots with seats than a whole front bench of them!!
Fair point, it does all play in to the idea of him being a loveable cartoon character.
Still very weird that it needs to be said, is it that people won't look for a second at his record before voting, that if you have one or two traits and sound posh you can do whatever you like, or that the grubby influence of certain newspapers and backers means they can get a turd elected.
I have voted in every General Election since 1979. In every single one I have always voted, with 100% certainty that my vote is, in effect. a wasted vote as the winner of the constituency is beyond doubt, be that labour or conservative (serves mr right for voting liberal or green I guess).
but these votes have taken place in North (Yorkshire) South (Wycombe/Reading) East (Norfolk) and West (Devon). PR is flawed, but it would be nice, just once…
As an aside (and being slightly involved in local politics) the Tory party isn’t alone in their arrogance and sense of entitlement. Some of the behaviour of some of the members of the local Labour Party is exactly steeped in that up here.
Comments
https://twitter.com/daRealAkinfenwa/status/1545074874976190468?t=xAW9Fc4V15cGpawC4xQ6Dw&s=19
Any mention of Chomsky on a football forum gets a thumbs up from me.
I think Starmer has a better chance of winning a general election than Jeremy Corbyn, and winning the general election should be by miles the highest priority of any opposition.
As it happens I think the most urgent thing we need in this country is electoral reform, and a government that represents the country, rather than one that is granted a massive majority on the votes of 24% of the electorate because they won some marginal seats with the votes of a few thousand people.
Imagine how engaged you could get people in politics of their votes actually counted
Absolutely with you there.
I think Starmer has a chance of winning the next general election because really who couldn't beat the tories after all this, but I think if he'd been in charge at the 2019 one he'd have been absolutely annihilated because who votes for wallpaper. The big clue that he's actually one of them is that after his first PMQs both the labour and tory WhatsApp groups sent round the exact same briefing on what to tweet, so we had the unedifying spectacle of tory and labour MPs posting identical tweets about how "forensic" he was. Why would both parties want him leading? Because he's shit and nothing will change for the billionaires if he wins. So who was the WhatsApp briefing to both parties actually from I wonder.
I don’t disagree that a change away from first past the post would bring about a fairer representation of who people actually voted for, but the Tories only allowed that vote because the Lib Dems pushed for it.
Turnout was poor last time, as was voting in favour of the motion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum
I agree that Starmer is more electable than Corbyn if only because to Joe Public, Corbyn perhaps came across as not being proud to be British - which may seem trite to many, but certainly went like a cup of cold sick in many regions. Starmer has clearly tried to distance himself from that, however cheesy all the “Union Jack in the background” photos may seem.
And sadly personalities do matter - I believe there was a decent sized poll done once where ordinary people were consulted as to what they thought of a range of Corbyn manifesto promises and asked whether they’d vote for them - a lot of positivity towards the policies themselves, without the party proposing them being revealed - then asked about voting intentions/perceptions of party leaders, and Corbyn got slated.
I don’t know what the answer is, but in the absence of proportional representation, and with the SNP having smashed Labour in Scotland, I can’t see anything other than a Lib/Lab coalition getting rid of the Tories, but I can’t see that happening.
I’m in favour of PR, but also painfully aware of how ignorant, gullible, racist and sometimes just plain stupid so many of the voters are. A sizeable number of them voted to cut ties with our largest trading block and destroy the economy just because foreigners.
Case in point https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jul/07/on-no-opinions-aplenty-but-little-consensus-in-boris-johnsons-uxbridge-ward
You can forgive a politician for a lack of principles or a lack of political savvy but Starmer has neither. I’ll still be voting Labour.
Winning elections is vital but also of little relevance if you don’t make sufficient difference when you do win them. Politics isn’t sport - it matters who wins beyond just the winning. The reason we’ve ended up with Brexit is because it somehow became the only alternative to establishment politics. Labour needed to make more of a difference when they were in power.
And in any case I don’t know many Labour centrists that are electorally appealing - none with the charisma of Johnson. Burnham is a better candidate now than he was in 2015.
Burnham is one of the few remaining Labour
MPsmembers with principles and dignity. I'd vote for them if he was leader.I wonder if we'll see the real Keir Starmer once the next Tory / PM is selected? Now that he'll have someone who might challenge him rather than sitting back and letting Boris dig his own grave?
I remember going to work on the morning of the 2019 election. Most of my colleagues are not particularly politically engaged but I realised within 5 minutes that despite any polls suggesting a close race, Corbyn was going to get hammered.
They really did believe he was a sinister character who would always take the side of a terrorist over a British soldier, had never done a real job, hated the Jews and (biggest crime of all) had appointed Diane Abbot.
I remember gently (cos there’s no point in ranting) trying to persuade colleagues that Corbyn would be far more interested in improving their lot than an old Etonian, but it was impossible to get past the image he was saddled with.
Part of that was his own fault. Because he hated the media (with good reason, TBF) he wouldn’t engage, wouldn’t hire people who had half a chance with attempting to manage press and spent far too much time preaching to the converted. He also has to take his share of the blame for the advent, if not the delivery, of brexit.
Don’t forget that despite woeful sales, print media still sets the news agenda. Sky & BBC news start with ‘the papers’, which are then picked up by the breakfast news programmes and off we go.
One thing I’ve learned living on the southern border of the red wall, with its swing seats, is that if you give the impression you’re not proud of Britain, disrespectful towards the Queen and and the armed forces, you might as well pack up and go home. Sir Keith’s flag fest is based solely on this. I don’t care for any of this, but he is attempting to deal with reality. Unfortunately, he is stupefyingly dull, robotic, uninspiring and appears to have little more to offer than more of the same but delivered competently.
I will still vote Labour regardless, as a vote for anyone else will simply return a Tory again.
On the plus side, today was a real sea change. I have never heard so many people displaying outright hostility towards the tories. I’m shocked it’s taken this long for the penny to drop about this current lot, but there’s no doubt that it finally has.
I can only begin to imagine the level of corruption Johnson will carry out before the end of September.
I like the idea of PR until I remember low turnout and the detested EU voting system provided Beery Nigel and bunch of other boozy lazy lechers two decades of two homes in europe, a nice salary and a massive pension for literally doing nowt.
https://twitter.com/Laurie1984/status/1544903085700653056?t=njlauBMXrVK9BSh_1ZEbEw&s=19
https://twitter.com/handed_diamond/status/1545069360477192193?t=uVOGutfndTY6BV2DHaqZpg&s=19
Not bad but James O’Brien does it better and, generally speaking, without the histrionics. Yesterday morning excepted when three years’ pent-up anger broke the banks.
Oh, Pie is just a character (not sure of the guy's real name). I like J O'B too, very deadpan.
Just so you know @micra, Jonathan Pie is a comedy character played as a political news reporter who delivers rants while the VT is rolling and then pulls himself together just as they go back on air. Full video here gives you the context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKrLBPmRsrM
Frank Lampard quite rightly tore James O'Brien to shreds some years ago and I've never really been able to get onboard with him since.
O'Brien called Frank Lampard "scum" based on the "evidence" of an article in The Sun, which surprise surprise turned out to be bullshit. It was on the anniversary of the death of Frank's mother, and understandably the family were very upset. Lampard actually phoned into his show and dealt with him perfectly.
There's a clip of it on youtube I think, or at least there was.
ps love Jonathan Pie
Thanks @drcongo. Yes, I was familiar with the character from previous postings on here. Not a great fan of expletive-splattered rants but there are times (Zeitgeist?) when they are fully justified, To be honest, anyone tuning in to James just after 10.00 am yesterday could have been excused for thinking he was a comedy character.
My perception of PR is that it is likely to lead to more coalitions and whilst the theory of coalition is always great the reality is usually political log jams and more elections.
Some form of PR is just right. Why should your vote only really count if you live in one of around 120 constituencies?
Yes, it gives a leg up to fuckwits like Laurence Fox and the like, but sadly some people do like them and that’s the price you have to pay. And in all honesty they’re not much worse than the likes of Patel & Rees-Mogg.
He's 100% got the measure of Bojo and his cohort.
Lampard hardly unblemished either.
The concept of Frank Lampard tearing James O’Brien to shreds rhetorically (if that is the suggestion) is very hard to get the head round. I reacted similarly about two years ago when you trotted out the same comment in response to my positive reaction to James O’Brien during the early stages of the pandemic. I’m from a traditionally Conservative voting background and have voted Conservative in the past so the eye-opening effect that James has had on me (as apolitical a person as you’re likely to meet) is extraordinary.
The circumstances of the exchange with Frank Lampard (as you describe them) do not, prima facie, reflect well on James. But one of the things I admire most about him is his readiness (developed, as he himself admits, mostly during the past 2-3 years) to acknowledge his past mistakes and misconceptions. The timing, context and nature of our respective first (or early) encounters with James are clearly very different.
I’ve not had LBC on this morning. Need a break from the whole schmozzle until things settle down a bit.
Loved his interruption of one caller yesterday to ask him, politely of course, not to refer to Johnson as BoJo.
Absolutely, I can't see how you can be an advocate for PR on one hand because it will help promote representation for your own view whilst at the same time critise it for giving differing views representation. I'd rather a couple of crackpots with seats than a whole front bench of them!!
Fair point, it does all play in to the idea of him being a loveable cartoon character.
Still very weird that it needs to be said, is it that people won't look for a second at his record before voting, that if you have one or two traits and sound posh you can do whatever you like, or that the grubby influence of certain newspapers and backers means they can get a turd elected.
Don't ever recall talking about him on here before - my memory is shot to pieces.
That's all fair enough, he's very good at what he does just personally speaking my mind always goes back to that incident.
I have voted in every General Election since 1979. In every single one I have always voted, with 100% certainty that my vote is, in effect. a wasted vote as the winner of the constituency is beyond doubt, be that labour or conservative (serves mr right for voting liberal or green I guess).
but these votes have taken place in North (Yorkshire) South (Wycombe/Reading) East (Norfolk) and West (Devon). PR is flawed, but it would be nice, just once…
As an aside (and being slightly involved in local politics) the Tory party isn’t alone in their arrogance and sense of entitlement. Some of the behaviour of some of the members of the local Labour Party is exactly steeped in that up here.
By "up here", do you mean Booker?