@Username said:
If it's not still written into overtly racist laws that the police or citizens can be discriminatory, then obviously racism isn't a problem, duh
If taking the knee has done anything practically, it's at least shown up people into a few different camps
1) the racists (immediate vitriolic reaction)
2) the mentally challenged (angry but not really sure why- usually friends with 1) )
3) the pseudo- intellectual with dangerously high self-value and importance - above those who have actually lived with racism.
I'm more than happy for a few of 2 and 3 to be caught in the wash while we remove all the 1s) from the game and society, it's just tiresome.
It is reasonable to point out that the legal playing field has never been leveller when the opposite is suggested.
The question is not whether discrimination exists - that has been and will be common to all societies. The question is to what extent is it present, which people or categories of people experience it and to what degree, and what would best be done about it. Whatever we do will not remove all injustice. We could make it better by what we do, things could stay the same or we could make it worse. Perhaps I'm more conservative than I thought I was - which would be ironic because I've been beginning to have a sense of what anarchists might be on to recently as I read Havel for the first time and consider the extent to which one might tend to sleepwalk through a communally constructed matrix "life" rather than living in truth - but I am alive to that last possibility as much as the first.
"Yes, It would be abhorrent for people to be lumped all in one group and judged accordingly by the law perhaps because of a characteristic or effect of birth. If a group of people had experienced that over decades if not centuries they'd surely want to protest. Probably less so because someone disagreed with them on a forum."
You replied to this as follows (although not in your immediate reply)
"Your proposition was that there was a category, or categories, of people against whom the law expressly discriminated. This is not the case."
That is misrepresenting and strawmanning @StrongestTeam 's views. You ignored "over decades if not centuries" and pretended his argument was based on explicit legal discrimination at the present time.
And I read his comment and your reply, and read them right, the first time.
It was obvious BS and reminds me of similar historic discussions with other posters who seem to have cut this out recently, he wants every word of his interpretations and supposed argument to be considered in forensic detail whilst ignoring most of anyone elses. Particularly ignoring the players stated reasoning. Exhausting this really, but important, good to see so many well written posts.
@HCblue Wow. The literal meaning of your latest reply to me is that "for people to be lumped all in one group and judged accordingly by the law perhaps because of a characteristic or effect of birth ... over decades if not centuries" is not "complaint-worthy". Just Wow.
@OakwoodExile said: @HCblue Wow. The literal meaning of your latest reply to me is that "for people to be lumped all in one group and judged accordingly by the law perhaps because of a characteristic or effect of birth ... over decades if not centuries" is not "complaint-worthy". Just Wow.
Not if you seek to assert that those same conditions pertain today.
@StrongestTeam said:
Man totally unnafected by issue thinks it's all mostly fine now as it was worse back in the day.
Man who lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up thinks he lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up.
“ Not if you seek to assert that those same conditions pertain today.”
Once again, that is a position that absolutely nobody in the thread has argued and therefore another straw man.
It is literally the only thing said in the post. There are other current issues that could properly be raised but the fact of historical inequality that is universally acknowledged as being undesirable and wrong is not directly relevant.
@StrongestTeam said:
Man totally unnafected by issue thinks it's all mostly fine now as it was worse back in the day.
Man who lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up thinks he lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up.
Again, not what I said. How much Racism is acceptable by the way to our players? All ok as long as it's a percentage or two better than last year?
Man who lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up thinks he lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up.
But this is irrelevant. What matters is there is still racism, which is why taking the knee is important.
@StrongestTeam said:
Man totally unnafected by issue thinks it's all mostly fine now as it was worse back in the day.
Man who lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up thinks he lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up.
Again, not what I said. How much Racism is acceptable by the way to our players? All ok as long as it's a percentage or two better than last year?
How much racism was experienced by our players last year?
@Chris said: Man who lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up thinks he lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up.
But this is irrelevant. What matters is there is still racism, which is why taking the knee is important.
Already agreed with you, and said more or less the same elsewhere. But a fair response to the post to which I replied.
This thread has reached holy shit levels of cognitive dissonance. If I had kids at your school I'd be pulling them out of there right now. I hope none of your pupils are non-white.
@drcongo said:
This thread has reach holy shit levels of cognitive dissonance. If I had kids at your school I'd be pulling them out of there right now. I hope none of your pupils are non-white.
Plenty. Amazingly, we seem to have managed to rub along just fine, despite my being an obvious racist.
@HCblue I find your arguments are misplaced because you seem to have taken a personal viewpoint that 'taking the knee' is an empty gesture that won't achieve anything and producing a lot of words to justify that viewpoint.
That is fine, but for the people taking the knee, at the moment they do it as they hope by repeatedly doing so it will resonate enough that people will realise that racism is, despite what you sometimes appear to think, something that they have to live with every day of their lives.
You can say all you like that racism doesn't exist but if you like I can take you to a hospital in London where someone who was the victim of casual racism at work was affected to such an extent that they suffered accidental extreme electrical burns from 25kV.
If you genuinely believe that institutional racism doesn't exist, could you please explain why a company of 40,000 people has seen the need to produce a Stand Up for Racial Equality briefing for everyone to attend to highlight how racism DOES effect people on a daily basis and can adversely affect their job prospects?
If the player's actions make one person think about how their own actions, behaviour and words can impact on black people enough to make them want to do so, that on its own makes it worth doing.
I agree that we are probably one of the less openly racist societies in Europe, but that isn't necessarily a cause of celebration, more a cause of shame for the species.
Internet forums tend to encourage simple "black or white" views rather than more nuanced views accepting some merit to the other sides position while overall concluding in favour of one side or the other. @HCblue is perfectly entitled to have considered the issue and come down on a different side to the majority view on this forum and to express those views. Nonetheless on balance I think he is wrong.
The "taking the knee" protest perhaps made some mistakes in the beginning or at least opened the door to those opposing the protest to find "inventive" justifications for so doing. Perhaps it would have been better for the strapline to be"black lives matter too" to take away the "don't white lives matter then" defence and the political views of the political organisation Black Lives Matter go further than the anti-racism message that the knee protest is designed to convey.
Nonetheless the players have explained precisely what they are protesting about and personally I find those who refuse to accept that disingenuous.
Picking up a few of the other points,
1) Are Millwall fans all racist or wrong to boo - well some undoubtedly are racist - the majority as with any crowd simply sheep following the lead of the bloke standing next door. I don't find the arguments that a crowd of (often drunk) young men are making a sophisticated political protest credible. They are entitled to express an opinion and counter protest if they wish though - protests should not be banned just because you disapprove of them.
2) is taking the knee divisive - well by definition all protest is divisive - protest is demanding change , very few changes are universal. For me it is not overly divisive and feels legitimate. It takes a few seconds, we all know it will happen, if you are that offended by it - don't go. It feels to me that on balance it has support of a comfortable majority.
3) are there other issues with our society -yes of course. Indeed currently it can be argued with evidence that working worse white boys get a worse deal than black people in our society. But the fact that there are other causes deserving attention does not delegitimise protest about the injustice of racism.
4) is "taking the knee effective" - demonstrably yes. There have been other protests about racism - eg kick it out - that while worthy have had limited impact. We are still talking about this a year on. That makes it effective.
So my conclusion, while accepting some of @HCblue concerns as legitimate, is that the taking the knee protest is legitimate, effective and hence worthwhile. My view is that it should continue.
@drcongo said:
This thread has reach holy shit levels of cognitive dissonance. If I had kids at your school I'd be pulling them out of there right now. I hope none of your pupils are non-white.
Plenty. Amazingly, we seem to have managed to rub along just fine, despite my being an obvious racist.
Obviously that's not what I said, but again arguing with the voice in your head rather than the substance of anyone's written post seems to be your modus operandi.
@bookertease said: @HCblue I find your arguments are misplaced because you seem to have taken a personal viewpoint that 'taking the knee' is an empty gesture that won't achieve anything and producing a lot of words to justify that viewpoint.
Gestures on their own are just that. But they are obviously capable of significant symbolic value.
That is fine, but for the people taking the knee, at the moment they do it as they hope by repeatedly doing so it will resonate enough that people will realise that racism is, despite what you sometimes appear to think, something that they have to live with every day of their lives.
Agreed.
You can say all you like that racism doesn't exist but if you like I can take you to a hospital in London where someone who was the victim of casual racism at work was affected to such an extent that they suffered accidental extreme electrical burns from 25kV.
I have not said racism does not exist. I have said the opposite.
If you genuinely believe that institutional racism doesn't exist, could you please explain why a company of 40,000 people has seen the need to produce a Stand Up for Racial Equality briefing for everyone to attend to highlight how racism DOES effect people on a daily basis and can adversely affect their job prospects?
I have not said it does not exist. Companies are increasingly taking actions of the sort you describe. I think it best to leave discussion on that for another day.
If the player's actions make one person think about how their own actions, behaviour and words can impact on black people enough to make them want to do so, that on its own makes it worth doing.
Sure.
I agree that we are probably one of the less openly racist societies in Europe, but that isn't necessarily a cause of celebration, more a cause of shame for the species.
Racism has been present in all societies throughout history. How we live, collectively and individually, with an awareness of our failings and inadequacies is one of the psychological wonders of our species. Perhaps we do it partly by not being aware of their full extent.
@drcongo said:
This thread has reach holy shit levels of cognitive dissonance. If I had kids at your school I'd be pulling them out of there right now. I hope none of your pupils are non-white.
Plenty. Amazingly, we seem to have managed to rub along just fine, despite my being an obvious racist.
Obviously that's not what I said, but again arguing with the voice in your head rather than the substance of anyone's written post seems to be your modus operandi.
It's not at all obvious that that's not what you said. How else would you like me to interpret the sentences "If I had kids at your school I'd be pulling them out of there right now. I hope none of your pupils are non-white."?
So you haven’t said that. But you are defending Millwall supporters booing the gesture. That is what this thread is about.
I have articulated some considered reasons for concern about what, certainly at its outset last year, sat beneath the gesture. I have expressed my own views about how I am (not) minded to express any reaction to its exercise.
So would it be fair to say that you are saying that it’s OK for Bayo, Stewart and others to take the knee so long as they don’t mind getting booed?
Whenever one expresses a position, one faces the possibility that others will disagree, in varying forms. This thread would be another example.
@DevC said:
Internet forums tend to encourage simple "black or white" views rather than more nuanced views accepting some merit to the other sides position while overall concluding in favour of one side or the other. @HCblue is perfectly entitled to have considered the issue and come down on a different side to the majority view on this forum and to express those views. Nonetheless on balance I think he is wrong.
The "taking the knee" protest perhaps made some mistakes in the beginning or at least opened the door to those opposing the protest to find "inventive" justifications for so doing. Perhaps it would have been better for the strapline to be"black lives matter too" to take away the "don't white lives matter then" defence and the political views of the political organisation Black Lives Matter go further than the anti-racism message that the knee protest is designed to convey.
Nonetheless the players have explained precisely what they are protesting about and personally I find those who refuse to accept that disingenuous.
Picking up a few of the other points,
1) Are Millwall fans all racist or wrong to boo - well some undoubtedly are racist - the majority as with any crowd simply sheep following the lead of the bloke standing next door. I don't find the arguments that a crowd of (often drunk) young men are making a sophisticated political protest credible. They are entitled to express an opinion and counter protest if they wish though - protests should not be banned just because you disapprove of them.
2) is taking the knee divisive - well by definition all protest is divisive - protest is demanding change , very few changes are universal. For me it is not overly divisive and feels legitimate. It takes a few seconds, we all know it will happen, if you are that offended by it - don't go. It feels to me that on balance it has support of a comfortable majority.
3) are there other issues with our society -yes of course. Indeed currently it can be argued with evidence that working worse white boys get a worse deal than black people in our society. But the fact that there are other causes deserving attention does not delegitimise protest about the injustice of racism.
4) is "taking the knee effective" - demonstrably yes. There have been other protests about racism - eg kick it out - that while worthy have had limited impact. We are still talking about this a year on. That makes it effective.
So my conclusion, while accepting some of @HCblue concerns as legitimate, is that the taking the knee protest is legitimate, effective and hence worthwhile. My view is that it should continue.
I think I'm on board with everything you have said here, @DevC, except to say that I have not said or suggested at any time that the protest is neither legitimate nor effective. My concern has been to encourage care in how we decide to address the situation. That aside, I am grateful for the carefulness of your manner of expression.
But what I am pretty certain of is that the ones who are racist are booing.
Attempts here by @HCblue to complicate this issue with endless (all dull) posts about it are clouding a really straightforward truth.
Footballers have stated unequivocally that taking the knee before games is purely and simply an anti-racism statement and one of solidarity with victims of racism.
If you're booing them doing it then that's what you're booing. You are also aligning yourself with racists, as that is certainly what they are doing.
If you find yourself booing an anti-racism statement and claim not to be racist you really need to have a word with yourself.
@HCblue said:
It's not at all obvious that that's not what you said. How else would you like me to interpret the sentences "If I had kids at your school I'd be pulling them out of there right now. I hope none of your pupils are non-white."?
I'd like you to not interpret them at all, because it seems whenever you interpret things, be it posts on a message board or the motivations behind protesting against racism, you get it very wrong. Perhaps you should reread the post.
I'd be pulling my kids out of there because you parrot the views of the extreme right, seemingly with complete disregard for those affected by those views. I hope none of your pupils are non-white because you've already explained to us that you feel racism is the fault of the people on the receiving end, because of their lack of agency and individual responsibility.
Again, I did not say you were a racist. The voice in your head told you to have that argument.
@HCblue said:
It's not at all obvious that that's not what you said. How else would you like me to interpret the sentences "If I had kids at your school I'd be pulling them out of there right now. I hope none of your pupils are non-white."?
I'd be pulling my kids out of there because you parrot the views of the extreme right, seemingly with complete disregard for those affected by those views.
The views of the extreme right are that we should aspire to the most equal society possible and be careful in how we go about it so as not to encourage greater division than is already present?
I hope none of your pupils are non-white because you've already explained to us that you feel racism is the fault of the people on the receiving end, because of their lack of agency and individual responsibility.
I have said nothing of the sort.
Again, I did not say you were a racist. The voice in your head told you to have that argument.
No. Not expressly. You merely wrote that what I say (parrot) is what is said by racists and that I have said black people are too hapless to sort themselves out and thus have whatever comes to them coming. In short, you seem to be saying I am not racist but am instead too unthinking and unaware to realise that my views align exactly with those of a racist.
Comments
It is reasonable to point out that the legal playing field has never been leveller when the opposite is suggested.
The question is not whether discrimination exists - that has been and will be common to all societies. The question is to what extent is it present, which people or categories of people experience it and to what degree, and what would best be done about it. Whatever we do will not remove all injustice. We could make it better by what we do, things could stay the same or we could make it worse. Perhaps I'm more conservative than I thought I was - which would be ironic because I've been beginning to have a sense of what anarchists might be on to recently as I read Havel for the first time and consider the extent to which one might tend to sleepwalk through a communally constructed matrix "life" rather than living in truth - but I am alive to that last possibility as much as the first.
It was obvious BS and reminds me of similar historic discussions with other posters who seem to have cut this out recently, he wants every word of his interpretations and supposed argument to be considered in forensic detail whilst ignoring most of anyone elses. Particularly ignoring the players stated reasoning. Exhausting this really, but important, good to see so many well written posts.
@HCblue Wow. The literal meaning of your latest reply to me is that "for people to be lumped all in one group and judged accordingly by the law perhaps because of a characteristic or effect of birth ... over decades if not centuries" is not "complaint-worthy". Just Wow.
Not if you seek to assert that those same conditions pertain today.
Man totally unnafected by issue thinks it's all mostly fine now as it was worse back in the day.
@HCblue
Once again, that is a position that absolutely nobody in the thread has argued and therefore another straw man.
Man who lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up thinks he lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up.
It is literally the only thing said in the post. There are other current issues that could properly be raised but the fact of historical inequality that is universally acknowledged as being undesirable and wrong is not directly relevant.
Again, not what I said. How much Racism is acceptable by the way to our players? All ok as long as it's a percentage or two better than last year?
Man who lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up thinks he lives, in terms of race relations, in vastly better times than those in which he grew up.
But this is irrelevant. What matters is there is still racism, which is why taking the knee is important.
How much racism was experienced by our players last year?
Already agreed with you, and said more or less the same elsewhere. But a fair response to the post to which I replied.
Enough that they take the knee.
@HCblue The post is quoted earlier on this page so people can see for themselves that it literally isn’t.
What is it that you teach? I hope to God it isn’t logic or English.
Enough for them to feel the need to continue taking the knee.
If Bayo, Stewart and the rest of the squad feel it's needed, who are you to say otherwise?
Where did I say they should not?
This thread has reached holy shit levels of cognitive dissonance. If I had kids at your school I'd be pulling them out of there right now. I hope none of your pupils are non-white.
What's the point in this entire thread then?
Other than for you to fluff yourself over some half baked race theories...
Plenty. Amazingly, we seem to have managed to rub along just fine, despite my being an obvious racist.
So you haven’t said that. But you are defending Millwall supporters booing the gesture. That is what this thread is about.
So would it be fair to say that you are saying that it’s OK for Bayo, Stewart and others to take the knee so long as they don’t mind getting booed?
@HCblue I find your arguments are misplaced because you seem to have taken a personal viewpoint that 'taking the knee' is an empty gesture that won't achieve anything and producing a lot of words to justify that viewpoint.
That is fine, but for the people taking the knee, at the moment they do it as they hope by repeatedly doing so it will resonate enough that people will realise that racism is, despite what you sometimes appear to think, something that they have to live with every day of their lives.
You can say all you like that racism doesn't exist but if you like I can take you to a hospital in London where someone who was the victim of casual racism at work was affected to such an extent that they suffered accidental extreme electrical burns from 25kV.
If you genuinely believe that institutional racism doesn't exist, could you please explain why a company of 40,000 people has seen the need to produce a Stand Up for Racial Equality briefing for everyone to attend to highlight how racism DOES effect people on a daily basis and can adversely affect their job prospects?
If the player's actions make one person think about how their own actions, behaviour and words can impact on black people enough to make them want to do so, that on its own makes it worth doing.
I agree that we are probably one of the less openly racist societies in Europe, but that isn't necessarily a cause of celebration, more a cause of shame for the species.
Internet forums tend to encourage simple "black or white" views rather than more nuanced views accepting some merit to the other sides position while overall concluding in favour of one side or the other. @HCblue is perfectly entitled to have considered the issue and come down on a different side to the majority view on this forum and to express those views. Nonetheless on balance I think he is wrong.
The "taking the knee" protest perhaps made some mistakes in the beginning or at least opened the door to those opposing the protest to find "inventive" justifications for so doing. Perhaps it would have been better for the strapline to be"black lives matter too" to take away the "don't white lives matter then" defence and the political views of the political organisation Black Lives Matter go further than the anti-racism message that the knee protest is designed to convey.
Nonetheless the players have explained precisely what they are protesting about and personally I find those who refuse to accept that disingenuous.
Picking up a few of the other points,
1) Are Millwall fans all racist or wrong to boo - well some undoubtedly are racist - the majority as with any crowd simply sheep following the lead of the bloke standing next door. I don't find the arguments that a crowd of (often drunk) young men are making a sophisticated political protest credible. They are entitled to express an opinion and counter protest if they wish though - protests should not be banned just because you disapprove of them.
2) is taking the knee divisive - well by definition all protest is divisive - protest is demanding change , very few changes are universal. For me it is not overly divisive and feels legitimate. It takes a few seconds, we all know it will happen, if you are that offended by it - don't go. It feels to me that on balance it has support of a comfortable majority.
3) are there other issues with our society -yes of course. Indeed currently it can be argued with evidence that working worse white boys get a worse deal than black people in our society. But the fact that there are other causes deserving attention does not delegitimise protest about the injustice of racism.
4) is "taking the knee effective" - demonstrably yes. There have been other protests about racism - eg kick it out - that while worthy have had limited impact. We are still talking about this a year on. That makes it effective.
So my conclusion, while accepting some of @HCblue concerns as legitimate, is that the taking the knee protest is legitimate, effective and hence worthwhile. My view is that it should continue.
Obviously that's not what I said, but again arguing with the voice in your head rather than the substance of anyone's written post seems to be your modus operandi.
Gestures on their own are just that. But they are obviously capable of significant symbolic value.
Agreed.
I have not said racism does not exist. I have said the opposite.
I have not said it does not exist. Companies are increasingly taking actions of the sort you describe. I think it best to leave discussion on that for another day.
Sure.
Racism has been present in all societies throughout history. How we live, collectively and individually, with an awareness of our failings and inadequacies is one of the psychological wonders of our species. Perhaps we do it partly by not being aware of their full extent.
It's not at all obvious that that's not what you said. How else would you like me to interpret the sentences "If I had kids at your school I'd be pulling them out of there right now. I hope none of your pupils are non-white."?
I have articulated some considered reasons for concern about what, certainly at its outset last year, sat beneath the gesture. I have expressed my own views about how I am (not) minded to express any reaction to its exercise.
Whenever one expresses a position, one faces the possibility that others will disagree, in varying forms. This thread would be another example.
I think I'm on board with everything you have said here, @DevC, except to say that I have not said or suggested at any time that the protest is neither legitimate nor effective. My concern has been to encourage care in how we decide to address the situation. That aside, I am grateful for the carefulness of your manner of expression.
I don't think everyone booing is racist.
But what I am pretty certain of is that the ones who are racist are booing.
Attempts here by @HCblue to complicate this issue with endless (all dull) posts about it are clouding a really straightforward truth.
Footballers have stated unequivocally that taking the knee before games is purely and simply an anti-racism statement and one of solidarity with victims of racism.
If you're booing them doing it then that's what you're booing. You are also aligning yourself with racists, as that is certainly what they are doing.
If you find yourself booing an anti-racism statement and claim not to be racist you really need to have a word with yourself.
"it really is that simple"
I'd like you to not interpret them at all, because it seems whenever you interpret things, be it posts on a message board or the motivations behind protesting against racism, you get it very wrong. Perhaps you should reread the post.
I'd be pulling my kids out of there because you parrot the views of the extreme right, seemingly with complete disregard for those affected by those views. I hope none of your pupils are non-white because you've already explained to us that you feel racism is the fault of the people on the receiving end, because of their lack of agency and individual responsibility.
Again, I did not say you were a racist. The voice in your head told you to have that argument.
The views of the extreme right are that we should aspire to the most equal society possible and be careful in how we go about it so as not to encourage greater division than is already present?
I have said nothing of the sort.
No. Not expressly. You merely wrote that what I say (parrot) is what is said by racists and that I have said black people are too hapless to sort themselves out and thus have whatever comes to them coming. In short, you seem to be saying I am not racist but am instead too unthinking and unaware to realise that my views align exactly with those of a racist.