@Malone said:
You seem to have a strange bee in your bonnet with this one @HCblue . Both on that previous thread and this one.
It's easy to characterise people with a different perspective in the worst possible way, as has generally been done so far on this thread. This is very unappealing to me and makes me want to push back. By all means have a thread where everyone can agree they don't like the fans of club X because they are (insert bad human characteristic) to a man and thus that all thoughts or ideas they adopt are, by definition, wrong-headed.
I saw someone wise once said don't take on an anti argument to something, without knowing the opposition argument better those making it.
But aside from saying black lives matter is a political organisation who want to defund the police etc I struggle to see their viewpoint at all.
They strike me as the fairly cretinous individuals who say "black lives matter? All lives matter", absolutely astoundingly missing the point.
The "gesture" of kneeling may not do anything more than keep the idea that racism = bad in the mainstream, but surely even that alone is worthwhile.
For pro clubs to decide to stop doing the gesture is quite startling. It's like an admission that their fans don't want it, won't keep to it, or at worst are condoning the message that they won't support the anti racism fight.
@Malone said:
You seem to have a strange bee in your bonnet with this one @HCblue . Both on that previous thread and this one.
It's easy to characterise people with a different perspective in the worst possible way, as has generally been done so far on this thread. This is very unappealing to me and makes me want to push back. By all means have a thread where everyone can agree they don't like the fans of club X because they are (insert bad human characteristic) to a man and thus that all thoughts or ideas they adopt are, by definition, wrong-headed.
Yes, It would be abhorrent for people to be lumped all in one group and judged accordingly by the law perhaps because of a characteristic or effect of birth. If a group of people had experienced that over decades if not centuries they'd surely want to protest. Probably less so because someone disagreed with them on a forum.
And if that were still the case, I imagine there would be far fewer legitimate reasons to question things.
@Malone said:
You seem to have a strange bee in your bonnet with this one @HCblue . Both on that previous thread and this one.
It's easy to characterise people with a different perspective in the worst possible way, as has generally been done so far on this thread. This is very unappealing to me and makes me want to push back. By all means have a thread where everyone can agree they don't like the fans of club X because they are (insert bad human characteristic) to a man and thus that all thoughts or ideas they adopt are, by definition, wrong-headed.
Yes, It would be abhorrent for people to be lumped all in one group and judged accordingly by the law perhaps because of a characteristic or effect of birth. If a group of people had experienced that over decades if not centuries they'd surely want to protest. Probably less so because someone disagreed with them on a forum.
And if that were still the case, I imagine there would be far fewer legitimate reasons to question things.
Ah sweet, did someone fix racism while I was at the shops, let's do climate change next
@EwanHoosaami said:
Perhaps taking away the element of the gesture that upsets some, (which I believe is the closed/raised fist), I think that's what they see as the "political gesture". Maybe swap it for arms across each others shoulders? Then if they still boo, you know that they are simply racists.
Just an idea, don't shoot the messenger please.
@Malone said:
You seem to have a strange bee in your bonnet with this one @HCblue . Both on that previous thread and this one.
It's easy to characterise people with a different perspective in the worst possible way, as has generally been done so far on this thread. This is very unappealing to me and makes me want to push back. By all means have a thread where everyone can agree they don't like the fans of club X because they are (insert bad human characteristic) to a man and thus that all thoughts or ideas they adopt are, by definition, wrong-headed.
The "gesture" of kneeling may not do anything more than keep the idea that racism = bad in the mainstream, but surely even that alone is worthwhile.
For pro clubs to decide to stop doing the gesture is quite startling. It's like an admission that their fans don't want it, won't keep to it, or at worst are condoning the message that they won't support the anti racism fight.
Could we agree that the idea that racism = bad has considerable currency in the mainstream already?
Should we also have brief ceremonies to mark our opposition to child abuse, bullying, drink driving etc. in perpetutuity? If not, at what point in time do we move from the current gesture to some other state of being and what are the success criteria that would allow that to be so?
@Malone said:
You seem to have a strange bee in your bonnet with this one @HCblue . Both on that previous thread and this one.
It's easy to characterise people with a different perspective in the worst possible way, as has generally been done so far on this thread. This is very unappealing to me and makes me want to push back. By all means have a thread where everyone can agree they don't like the fans of club X because they are (insert bad human characteristic) to a man and thus that all thoughts or ideas they adopt are, by definition, wrong-headed.
Yes, It would be abhorrent for people to be lumped all in one group and judged accordingly by the law perhaps because of a characteristic or effect of birth. If a group of people had experienced that over decades if not centuries they'd surely want to protest. Probably less so because someone disagreed with them on a forum.
And if that were still the case, I imagine there would be far fewer legitimate reasons to question things.
Ah sweet, did someone fix racism while I was at the shops, let's do climate change next
Your proposition was that there was a category, or categories, of people against whom the law expressly discriminated. This is not the case.
@Wendoverman said:
I forgot how depressing this bollocks all is to debate.
It's a painful topic at the moment, I agree, and the subject goes a long way beyond the knee gesture. I simply mean to say that, if it's going to be brought up, it might be as well to explore the arguments of all concerned in good faith.
@Wendoverman said:
I forgot how depressing this bollocks all is to debate.
It's a painful topic at the moment, I agree, and the subject goes a long way beyond the knee gesture. I simply mean to say that, if it's going to be brought up, it might be as well to explore the arguments of all concerned in good faith.
Lol, if pretending Racism doesn't really exist is in good faith I think we are done here.
@Wendoverman said:
I forgot how depressing this bollocks all is to debate.
It's a painful topic at the moment, I agree, and the subject goes a long way beyond the knee gesture. I simply mean to say that, if it's going to be brought up, it might be as well to explore the arguments of all concerned in good faith.
Lol, if pretending Racism doesn't really exist is in good faith I think we are done here.
If you think that is the argument you are opposing then I agree.
The problem is that whilst there may be laws against all sorts of discrimination, we know from a myriad of parliamentary and independent reports that many of these discriminatory behaviours have been institutionalised, whether that is racism or misogyny or homophobia etc.
We are surely all aware of the reasons professional sports people chose to take the knee to highlight the ongoing scourge of racism in our country; to conflate this simple gesture with some form of left wing rabble rousers and politics is disingenuous at best and downright stupid at worst. What I am less certain of is the "anti-anti" argument that this makes the booers racists rather than just uninformed or thick.
I don’t know how often we have to go through this and what it stands for. Plain and simple (to me anyway) if one of my team mates has experienced discrimination in any form (I’m unlikely to) and wants to take the knee that’s cool. By me taking the knee I’m saying I’ve got your back mate. That’s it.
Booing makes no sense. You are booing solidarity with your teammates?
@HCblue said:
Thank you for the various feedback. I am interested that no-one has yet seriously articulated the arguments that exist among those with reservations on the subject in order to counter them nor, among those who took the time to downvote my earlier post, to say what it was I said to which they took objection and why.
I guess nobody is bothering because you only ever post faux-enigmatic one-liners on the subject, rather than ever articulating why it is that you feel so strongly opposed to [*checks notes... ?] anti-racism. Like this...
@HCblue said:
And if that were still the case, I imagine there would be far fewer legitimate reasons to question things.
An absolutely astonishing claim from a white middle class man that racism is over and nobody needs to worry about it any more.
Or this...
@HCblue said:
It does take an informed understanding of the anti-racist movement, though.
So enigmatically hinting how superior you are to everyone else because you have an "informed understanding of the anti-racist movement" that obviously the rest of us, who don't like racism, are too stupid to hold. Because from here, the mere fact that you've called standing up for the rights of my wife and children a "movement" is some top notch dog-whistling.
So maybe, if you actually want people to engage with your incredible intellect that we anti-racists could only aspire to, maybe, just tell us what it is that you actually believe. When did racism end? What is so awful about the anti-racism "movement"? You never know, it might actually just be some nonsense that a billionaire wanted you to believe.
@HCblue said:
Thank you for the various feedback. I am interested that no-one has yet seriously articulated the arguments that exist among those with reservations on the subject in order to counter them nor, among those who took the time to downvote my earlier post, to say what it was I said to which they took objection and why.
I guess nobody is bothering because you only ever post faux-enigmatic one-liners on the subject, rather than ever articulating why it is that you feel so strongly opposed to [*checks notes... ?] anti-racism. Like this...
@HCblue said:
And if that were still the case, I imagine there would be far fewer legitimate reasons to question things.
An absolutely astonishing claim from a white middle class man that racism is over and nobody needs to worry about it any more.
Please cite the current legislation or common law that legalises racial discrimination in any form.
@HCblue Why don't you take up the challenge which I think the good doctor did actually set you, which was to articulate the actual arguments rather than just implying that we are too simplistic to understand them? You're articulate. Go on, set out the arguments in a way that actually has a chance of convincing someone. You've devoted enough time and effort on this thread to straw man arguments and whataboutery. Let's hear the positive case.
I really don’t see what’s so hard. See someone showing an anti racist stand. Support that person. It’s really as simple as that. Taking a knee, raising a fist, waving a windmill. Whatever. It’s not my symbolism as I doubt I will ever be a victim of discrimination based on my skin colour. But it is my duty / will / desire to say ‘I got you’. And I can only see one reason why you wouldn’t do that.
@HCblue said:
It does take an informed understanding of the anti-racist movement, though.
So enigmatically hinting how superior you are to everyone else because you have an "informed understanding of the anti-racist movement" that obviously the rest of us, who don't like racism, are too stupid to hold. Because from here, the mere fact that you've called standing up for the rights of my wife and children a "movement" is some top notch dog-whistling.
Perhaps you confuse being against racism with being against the anti-racist movement that has evolved in the past few years in the US out of critical theory. Being, as I understand it from your posts, quite politically engaged, I think that unlikely. Your habit of mischaracterising a view you disagree with, often in emotive terms such as by your invocation of family members here, is exactly why I regret threads like this for all that we will be fine friends anon.
I would be amazed if anyone on the Gasroom held any meaningful animus towards those of other races, though I suppose it is possible. Let us take it as read that we all think racism is a bad thing. Let us also take as read that there is no longer overt institutional or legal prejudice towards non-white people. Instead, I suggest there has never been a more equal society than that in which we live. Is it free of bias and prejudice? Of course not. Will there always be people that behave badly to others for no good reason? Yes. But do your "wife and children" enjoy exactly the same rights and protections as you? Yes, they do.
So what to do about the racism that remains? Blessed if I know and if people wish to raise awareness of the wrongness of it as they are doing, and have done for a good while in other ways, then fine by me. I find the young people I teach as unthinkingly unprejudiced in their attitudes today as I think my generation was somewhat the opposite when young. I am not sure it is because they have experienced a number of awareness-raising campaigns telling them to think that way but rather because they have grown up in a country that has a much greater diversity of people in it and they are more accustomed to being with a range of different people in a way we were not. What I strongly believe will not make things better but, far more likely, make them very much worse, is the application of the principles of critical race theory that operate by highlighting the immutable characteristics of us all and separating us into classes of oppressor and oppressed, removing agency and individual responsibility and creating an environment in which it is more rather than less likely that people will be minded to express hatred or resentment towards people different to them.
EDIT: Thought I'd add this paragraph after reading through and seeing some replies that came in while drafting this:
I am broadly very upbeat about the direction in which our society has moved in my lifetime and think that - if you are at least 45, say - your own experience of life here will tell you the same thing. It is a much more equal, less consciously prejudiced place than it was. Nowhere near Utopia but much, much better. And I think it is worth saying that clearly.
Finally, seeing @TheAndyGrahamFanClub's post above mine: I think the point is that, given that the roots of this gesture last year lay in the BLM movement that came over from the USA post-Floyd, the objection of many came from their grave reservations about that movement and any suggestion that its divisive ideology should be injected into British society rather than any idea that a certain amount of racism is a good thing or anything daft like that.
Comments
I saw someone wise once said don't take on an anti argument to something, without knowing the opposition argument better those making it.
But aside from saying black lives matter is a political organisation who want to defund the police etc I struggle to see their viewpoint at all.
They strike me as the fairly cretinous individuals who say "black lives matter? All lives matter", absolutely astoundingly missing the point.
The "gesture" of kneeling may not do anything more than keep the idea that racism = bad in the mainstream, but surely even that alone is worthwhile.
For pro clubs to decide to stop doing the gesture is quite startling. It's like an admission that their fans don't want it, won't keep to it, or at worst are condoning the message that they won't support the anti racism fight.
And if that were still the case, I imagine there would be far fewer legitimate reasons to question things.
Ah sweet, did someone fix racism while I was at the shops, let's do climate change next
Could we agree that the idea that racism = bad has considerable currency in the mainstream already?
Should we also have brief ceremonies to mark our opposition to child abuse, bullying, drink driving etc. in perpetutuity? If not, at what point in time do we move from the current gesture to some other state of being and what are the success criteria that would allow that to be so?
Your proposition was that there was a category, or categories, of people against whom the law expressly discriminated. This is not the case.
I forgot how depressing this bollocks all is to debate.
It's a painful topic at the moment, I agree, and the subject goes a long way beyond the knee gesture. I simply mean to say that, if it's going to be brought up, it might be as well to explore the arguments of all concerned in good faith.
Lol, if pretending Racism doesn't really exist is in good faith I think we are done here.
If you think that is the argument you are opposing then I agree.
In good faith, I blocked a few posters during the last thread. I'm kicking myself for getting drawn in again. That's my mistake!:
The problem is that whilst there may be laws against all sorts of discrimination, we know from a myriad of parliamentary and independent reports that many of these discriminatory behaviours have been institutionalised, whether that is racism or misogyny or homophobia etc.
We are surely all aware of the reasons professional sports people chose to take the knee to highlight the ongoing scourge of racism in our country; to conflate this simple gesture with some form of left wing rabble rousers and politics is disingenuous at best and downright stupid at worst. What I am less certain of is the "anti-anti" argument that this makes the booers racists rather than just uninformed or thick.
Come back Dev C..all is forgiven
Players have explained countless times why they take the knee. Being uninformed isn't an excuse.
I don’t know how often we have to go through this and what it stands for. Plain and simple (to me anyway) if one of my team mates has experienced discrimination in any form (I’m unlikely to) and wants to take the knee that’s cool. By me taking the knee I’m saying I’ve got your back mate. That’s it.
Booing makes no sense. You are booing solidarity with your teammates?
Bayo takes the knee so hopefully his son won’t have to.
That’s good enough for me. Who the hell am I, a privileged white middle aged man, to tell him otherwise.
Gary Rowett says It changed nowt in 1968 so why are they still doing stuff like that?
Gary Rowett probably thinks they were protesting against a lack of hand rails on the Underground.
@ReturnToSenda said:
I want to upvote this twice!
I guess nobody is bothering because you only ever post faux-enigmatic one-liners on the subject, rather than ever articulating why it is that you feel so strongly opposed to [*checks notes... ?] anti-racism. Like this...
An absolutely astonishing claim from a white middle class man that racism is over and nobody needs to worry about it any more.
Or this...
So enigmatically hinting how superior you are to everyone else because you have an "informed understanding of the anti-racist movement" that obviously the rest of us, who don't like racism, are too stupid to hold. Because from here, the mere fact that you've called standing up for the rights of my wife and children a "movement" is some top notch dog-whistling.
So maybe, if you actually want people to engage with your incredible intellect that we anti-racists could only aspire to, maybe, just tell us what it is that you actually believe. When did racism end? What is so awful about the anti-racism "movement"? You never know, it might actually just be some nonsense that a billionaire wanted you to believe.
Please cite the current legislation or common law that legalises racial discrimination in any form.
@HCblue nobody said that. Absolute straw man
Saved me a post there, thanks @OakwoodExile
My pleasure @drcongo
@HCblue Why don't you take up the challenge which I think the good doctor did actually set you, which was to articulate the actual arguments rather than just implying that we are too simplistic to understand them? You're articulate. Go on, set out the arguments in a way that actually has a chance of convincing someone. You've devoted enough time and effort on this thread to straw man arguments and whataboutery. Let's hear the positive case.
I really don’t see what’s so hard. See someone showing an anti racist stand. Support that person. It’s really as simple as that. Taking a knee, raising a fist, waving a windmill. Whatever. It’s not my symbolism as I doubt I will ever be a victim of discrimination based on my skin colour. But it is my duty / will / desire to say ‘I got you’. And I can only see one reason why you wouldn’t do that.
Perhaps you confuse being against racism with being against the anti-racist movement that has evolved in the past few years in the US out of critical theory. Being, as I understand it from your posts, quite politically engaged, I think that unlikely. Your habit of mischaracterising a view you disagree with, often in emotive terms such as by your invocation of family members here, is exactly why I regret threads like this for all that we will be fine friends anon.
I would be amazed if anyone on the Gasroom held any meaningful animus towards those of other races, though I suppose it is possible. Let us take it as read that we all think racism is a bad thing. Let us also take as read that there is no longer overt institutional or legal prejudice towards non-white people. Instead, I suggest there has never been a more equal society than that in which we live. Is it free of bias and prejudice? Of course not. Will there always be people that behave badly to others for no good reason? Yes. But do your "wife and children" enjoy exactly the same rights and protections as you? Yes, they do.
So what to do about the racism that remains? Blessed if I know and if people wish to raise awareness of the wrongness of it as they are doing, and have done for a good while in other ways, then fine by me. I find the young people I teach as unthinkingly unprejudiced in their attitudes today as I think my generation was somewhat the opposite when young. I am not sure it is because they have experienced a number of awareness-raising campaigns telling them to think that way but rather because they have grown up in a country that has a much greater diversity of people in it and they are more accustomed to being with a range of different people in a way we were not. What I strongly believe will not make things better but, far more likely, make them very much worse, is the application of the principles of critical race theory that operate by highlighting the immutable characteristics of us all and separating us into classes of oppressor and oppressed, removing agency and individual responsibility and creating an environment in which it is more rather than less likely that people will be minded to express hatred or resentment towards people different to them.
EDIT: Thought I'd add this paragraph after reading through and seeing some replies that came in while drafting this:
I am broadly very upbeat about the direction in which our society has moved in my lifetime and think that - if you are at least 45, say - your own experience of life here will tell you the same thing. It is a much more equal, less consciously prejudiced place than it was. Nowhere near Utopia but much, much better. And I think it is worth saying that clearly.
Finally, seeing @TheAndyGrahamFanClub's post above mine: I think the point is that, given that the roots of this gesture last year lay in the BLM movement that came over from the USA post-Floyd, the objection of many came from their grave reservations about that movement and any suggestion that its divisive ideology should be injected into British society rather than any idea that a certain amount of racism is a good thing or anything daft like that.
You should probably reread the post to which I was replying.
Hc's premise seems to simply be that not everyone against the knee gesture is a colossal racist.
But he frames this view in a strangely arrogant, provocative pseudo intellectual (frustrated teacher perhaps?)manner.
What that I have said do you disagree with, @malone?
@hcblue do you think the police treat white people and black people the same?