Very interesting that ~12m is owed to Mel Morris owned companies if I'm reading that right. So magnanimous of him to offer to handle the claims from Wycombe and Boro while sitting on his own claims.
@micra said:
That’s a magnificent magnum opus in my book @Maskell1982 so welcome aboard. I have a fairly feeble handle on these matters (as apparently a majority of Derby County fans do). But your detailed post brings home the full complexity and magnitude of the situation with which potential investors are confronted.
Tiny gripe (allegedly typical of me, I’m afraid) - para 6, “……there are various smaller creditors….” and “Secvo/Sevco (?) are owed £8,173,898.”
My apologises micra, that was a typo. Looking at the balance sheet of figures owed DCFC actually owe Mel Morris' companies money from other loans and transactions. It should read Sevco not Secvo but they are further down the list of preferential creditors in the eyes of the Administrators.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub said:
Hey @Maskell1982 thank you for that (staggering) and rather in depth appraisal of the goings on at Derby.
I still find it a real shame that despite the figures being in the public domain for all to see the Derby fans (and in all fairness the Derby local media outlets) still paint Morris as a dignified man who just made a mistake in getting them so close to the promised land. Whilst at the same time picking out (in order of hate) Middlesbrough, The EFL and Wycombe as the villains of the piece.
It is pretty clear for most to see that the EFL is not qualified to identify systematic and deliberate avoidance of financial fair play rules.
Thank you for the welcome, my thoughts on the whole matter seem to be that the administrators and Mel Morris seem to be saving face and looking to blame both us and Middlesbrough for their slow crawl through the administration process instead of the flaws in the accountancy and debt the club face. If and i hope they don't liquidate may i add! We will be held accountable for the demise of the club instead of the attractive accountancy over a 4 year period.
"During Covid it was apparent Morris' funding was running out and a loss of 54% of matchday revenue was killing the club"
I'd take exception with this part tbh if you don't mind @Maskell1982. I don't have the figures off hand but think wages went up around 500% in 5 years, they spent heavily on transfer fees and they run a very big operation, certainly compared to us, and seemingly way beyond their means. Morris must have known this and ploughed on borrowing with a view to either getting into the Prem or selling up.
Covid had an effect on their income but that is just a small part of this. Even now they don't seem keen to reduce outgoings by selling their best players.
His early attempts to sell were shambolic and after he lost a court case or two he simply decided everyone else can take a haircut to sort his mess out. But he's keeping the ground.
@StrongestTeam said:
"During Covid it was apparent Morris' funding was running out and a loss of 54% of matchday revenue was killing the club"
I'd take exception with this part tbh if you don't mind @Maskell1982. I don't have the figures off hand but think wages went up around 500% in 5 years, they spent heavily on transfer fees and they run a very big operation, certainly compared to us, and seemingly way beyond their means. Morris must have known this and ploughed on borrowing with a view to either getting into the Prem or selling up.
Covid had an effect on their income but that is just a small part of this. Even now they don't seem keen to reduce outgoings by selling their best players.
His early attempts to sell were shambolic and after he lost a court case or two he simply decided everyone else can take a haircut to sort his mess out. But he's keeping the ground.
I don't mind at all. I'm simply quoting the official line via Companies House. The audit whether it was directly from Mel's mouth or not actually states that line i used. It seems to be using Covid as the reason there was an initial shortfall in the finances quoted, 54% is used with the gap of £30-£40 million used as a starting point. All officially documented on the findings by Quantuma.
@Maskell1982 - Great darts. I don't think there's anything to add to that, the outlook is beyond grim for DCFC even if Gibson and Couhig's claims are out of the picture.
@StrongestTeam said:
"During Covid it was apparent Morris' funding was running out and a loss of 54% of matchday revenue was killing the club"
I'd take exception with this part tbh if you don't mind @Maskell1982. I don't have the figures off hand but think wages went up around 500% in 5 years, they spent heavily on transfer fees and they run a very big operation, certainly compared to us, and seemingly way beyond their means. Morris must have known this and ploughed on borrowing with a view to either getting into the Prem or selling up.
Covid had an effect on their income but that is just a small part of this. Even now they don't seem keen to reduce outgoings by selling their best players.
His early attempts to sell were shambolic and after he lost a court case or two he simply decided everyone else can take a haircut to sort his mess out. But he's keeping the ground.
I don't mind at all. I'm simply quoting the official line via Companies House. The audit whether it was directly from Mel's mouth or not actually states that line i used. It seems to be using Covid as the reason there was an initial shortfall in the finances quoted, 54% is used with the gap of £30-£40 million used as a starting point. All officially documented on the findings by Quantuma.
Apologies, I thought it was your summary. They continue to make regular noise around Covid and our claim but rarely admit anything else is at play. It's pretty clear from the rest of your post that they'd be screwed anyway and have done little to offset it.
@micra said:
That’s a magnificent magnum opus in my book @Maskell1982 so welcome aboard. I have a fairly feeble handle on these matters (as apparently a majority of Derby County fans do). But your detailed post brings home the full complexity and magnitude of the situation with which potential investors are confronted.
Tiny gripe (allegedly typical of me, I’m afraid) - para 6, “……there are various smaller creditors….” and “Secvo/Sevco (?) are owed £8,173,898.”
My apologises micra, that was a typo. Looking at the balance sheet of figures owed DCFC actually owe Mel Morris' companies money from other loans and transactions. It should read Sevco not Secvo but they are further down the list of preferential creditors in the eyes of the Administrators.
Thanks for tolerating my OCD! It rightly got a couple of thumbs down but I cancelled one out to reduce the embarrassment.
Look forward to hearing more from you in due course.
@Malone said:
Why any celeb goes on twitter I don't know. Not without locking comments from morons anyway.
It's just a cesspool of people sending their abusive thoughts.
You should see half of them about Lewis Hamilton after his 2 months hiatus and posted “I’ve been away. Now I’m back”.
Apparently not talking constantly on Social media after the end of the F1 season means he’s massively selfish and has made the aftermath of the F1 season all about him. By. Not. Talking.
@Malone said:
Why any celeb goes on twitter I don't know. Not without locking comments from morons anyway.
It's just a cesspool of people sending their abusive thoughts.
You should see half of them about Lewis Hamilton after his 2 months hiatus and posted “I’ve been away. Now I’m back”.
Apparently not talking constantly on Social media after the end of the F1 season means he’s massively selfish and has made the aftermath of the F1 season all about him. By. Not. Talking.
Lewis still hasn’t replied to my suggestion
How dare he. Don’t famous people on Twitter realise that that one tweet from a complete random is the most important thing ever said by anyone.
Great work @Maskell1982. I had done a bit of digging on companies house but nothing to the extent of your research.
Your number do back up a previous post I added to this thread about when a 'preferred' bidder looks at the books they start running and do not stop.
There was always (IMO) something not quite right about the 'official' debt figures simply because a club the size of Derby (with or without a stadium attached initially) must be relatively attractive even with debts of £80 mill.
But with those debts seemingly approaching double that you really wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.
@Malone said:
Why any celeb goes on twitter I don't know. Not without locking comments from morons anyway.
It's just a cesspool of people sending their abusive thoughts.
You should see half of them about Lewis Hamilton after his 2 months hiatus and posted “I’ve been away. Now I’m back”.
Apparently not talking constantly on Social media after the end of the F1 season means he’s massively selfish and has made the aftermath of the F1 season all about him. By. Not. Talking.
Lewis still hasn’t replied to my suggestion
How dare he. Don’t famous people on Twitter realise that that one tweet from a complete random is the most important thing ever said by anyone.
I only suggested race car driving wasn’t a real sport because if he was in the slowest car on the grid he wouldn’t win a race and if you put them all in pedal cars…anyway nothing back
I suspect that Ashley is circling in the hole that secured creditors take a pennies in the pound deal and unsecured take a bath.
Otherwise it’s not viable even for him
Welcome @Maskell1982 thank you for your efforts of having a good old dig, and your easy to understand wording of your findings .... Very interesting indeed
I was curious as to when the ownership of Pride Park was transferred outside of the Derby County companies "structure".
Having just noticed this is in the rules regarding Administrators duties, I was curious if it was applicable.
"The liquidator or administrator can also apply to court seeking an order to restore any disposition of company property which contravenes the relevant provisions of the IA 1986, being IA 1986, s 127 (only in a compulsory liquidation) and IA 1986, ss 238, 239, 240 and 423—these are generally referred to as antecedent transactions. Therefore, a liquidator or administrator can make an application to court to unwind transactions entered into before the company was wound-up or entered into administration. Whether the particular transaction will be unwound will depend on its own circumstances".
I and many of my accountant friends believe it is absolutely applicable and would have thought the administrator would have applied to the courts early in their tenure for an adjudication, the fact they haven;t further strengthens the belief they are working in Morris interest and not that of the creditor.
This sorry mess is going to end in tears all round
I noticed the administrators did a fans forum last night and repeated that everything was wonderful and sorted now. The only fly in the ointment being Wycombe and Boro which is the only thing holding up a challenge for the Premiership next season and ultimately European domination.
Thank you for the warm welcome, i appreciate it and didn't think my opening post would have created such a reaction.
In my estimations and I'm not claiming to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination - but to fulfil the EFL's rules DCFC and their new purchaser must pay 25% of the creditors (at least) to avoid a further points deduction of 15 points. My reckoning we're looking at £40,700.000 (roughly) without factoring in the cost of the stadium and how hard the HRMC & PAYE play. Mel Morris can of course always gift the stadium I suppose but the loan secured by MSD UK Holdings on the various companies would need factoring into any future business plan with the new purchases for payment. Also worrying for DCFC is the administrators seem to be working alongside Mel's side kick, a certain Mr.Stephen Pearce who has been part of the setup at Pride Park for a number of years (since 2013.)
Is this the fella, you are not seriously saying he works for the Administrators?
See my posting below:
July 2021 Flag
Derby County chief executive Stephen Pearce resigned yesterday from the EFL Board and is quoted as saying,"I have a duty to my club first and foremost."
Was anyone else aware Derby had a director on the EFL Board before yesterday?
He was replaced by Peter Ridsdale...anything I type after his name is superfluous, see?
Comments
Very interesting that ~12m is owed to Mel Morris owned companies if I'm reading that right. So magnanimous of him to offer to handle the claims from Wycombe and Boro while sitting on his own claims.
My apologises micra, that was a typo. Looking at the balance sheet of figures owed DCFC actually owe Mel Morris' companies money from other loans and transactions. It should read Sevco not Secvo but they are further down the list of preferential creditors in the eyes of the Administrators.
Thank you for the welcome, my thoughts on the whole matter seem to be that the administrators and Mel Morris seem to be saving face and looking to blame both us and Middlesbrough for their slow crawl through the administration process instead of the flaws in the accountancy and debt the club face. If and i hope they don't liquidate may i add! We will be held accountable for the demise of the club instead of the attractive accountancy over a 4 year period.
"During Covid it was apparent Morris' funding was running out and a loss of 54% of matchday revenue was killing the club"
I'd take exception with this part tbh if you don't mind @Maskell1982. I don't have the figures off hand but think wages went up around 500% in 5 years, they spent heavily on transfer fees and they run a very big operation, certainly compared to us, and seemingly way beyond their means. Morris must have known this and ploughed on borrowing with a view to either getting into the Prem or selling up.
Covid had an effect on their income but that is just a small part of this. Even now they don't seem keen to reduce outgoings by selling their best players.
His early attempts to sell were shambolic and after he lost a court case or two he simply decided everyone else can take a haircut to sort his mess out. But he's keeping the ground.
I don't mind at all. I'm simply quoting the official line via Companies House. The audit whether it was directly from Mel's mouth or not actually states that line i used. It seems to be using Covid as the reason there was an initial shortfall in the finances quoted, 54% is used with the gap of £30-£40 million used as a starting point. All officially documented on the findings by Quantuma.
What a debut from @Maskell1982
@Maskell1982 - Great darts. I don't think there's anything to add to that, the outlook is beyond grim for DCFC even if Gibson and Couhig's claims are out of the picture.
Apologies, I thought it was your summary. They continue to make regular noise around Covid and our claim but rarely admit anything else is at play. It's pretty clear from the rest of your post that they'd be screwed anyway and have done little to offset it.
Thanks for tolerating my OCD! It rightly got a couple of thumbs down but I cancelled one out to reduce the embarrassment.
Look forward to hearing more from you in due course.
Lewis still hasn’t replied to my suggestion
And that’s a very good concise appraisal @Maskell1982
How dare he. Don’t famous people on Twitter realise that that one tweet from a complete random is the most important thing ever said by anyone.
Great work @Maskell1982. I had done a bit of digging on companies house but nothing to the extent of your research.
Your number do back up a previous post I added to this thread about when a 'preferred' bidder looks at the books they start running and do not stop.
There was always (IMO) something not quite right about the 'official' debt figures simply because a club the size of Derby (with or without a stadium attached initially) must be relatively attractive even with debts of £80 mill.
But with those debts seemingly approaching double that you really wouldn't touch them with a barge pole.
I only suggested race car driving wasn’t a real sport because if he was in the slowest car on the grid he wouldn’t win a race and if you put them all in pedal cars…anyway nothing back
And you are really surprised there's no response @Morris_Ital ?
Come to think of it
I suspect that Ashley is circling in the hole that secured creditors take a pennies in the pound deal and unsecured take a bath.
Otherwise it’s not viable even for him
Welcome @Maskell1982 thank you for your efforts of having a good old dig, and your easy to understand wording of your findings .... Very interesting indeed
If this is indeed @Maskell1982 's first ever post then it might just be the finest debut since Steven Taylor
How did HMRC let them run up a £26m PAYE debt? “Deputy heads must roll”, as they used to say in the BBC.
Sadly, I think this whole thread could be summed up with the following.
DERBY ARE ABSOLUTELY SCREWED.
@Maskell1982 has indeed had a fine debut, so onto the biggest question of the day… can anybody raise @eric_plant ’s suggestion of Steven Taylor?
I’m struggling on great debuts but Keith Scott was known for scoring regular on his debut’s.
Dennis Greene first appearance was pretty good.
Jordon Ibe v Sheffield Weds... was that his league debut?
I was curious as to when the ownership of Pride Park was transferred outside of the Derby County companies "structure".
Having just noticed this is in the rules regarding Administrators duties, I was curious if it was applicable.
"The liquidator or administrator can also apply to court seeking an order to restore any disposition of company property which contravenes the relevant provisions of the IA 1986, being IA 1986, s 127 (only in a compulsory liquidation) and IA 1986, ss 238, 239, 240 and 423—these are generally referred to as antecedent transactions. Therefore, a liquidator or administrator can make an application to court to unwind transactions entered into before the company was wound-up or entered into administration. Whether the particular transaction will be unwound will depend on its own circumstances".
Just a thought.
I and many of my accountant friends believe it is absolutely applicable and would have thought the administrator would have applied to the courts early in their tenure for an adjudication, the fact they haven;t further strengthens the belief they are working in Morris interest and not that of the creditor.
This sorry mess is going to end in tears all round
I noticed the administrators did a fans forum last night and repeated that everything was wonderful and sorted now. The only fly in the ointment being Wycombe and Boro which is the only thing holding up a challenge for the Premiership next season and ultimately European domination.
Rugby or Scottish football @TheAndyGrahamFanClub ?
(Can never resist.)
I guess AFC Derby 2022 can chose
Thank you for the warm welcome, i appreciate it and didn't think my opening post would have created such a reaction.
In my estimations and I'm not claiming to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination - but to fulfil the EFL's rules DCFC and their new purchaser must pay 25% of the creditors (at least) to avoid a further points deduction of 15 points. My reckoning we're looking at £40,700.000 (roughly) without factoring in the cost of the stadium and how hard the HRMC & PAYE play. Mel Morris can of course always gift the stadium I suppose but the loan secured by MSD UK Holdings on the various companies would need factoring into any future business plan with the new purchases for payment. Also worrying for DCFC is the administrators seem to be working alongside Mel's side kick, a certain Mr.Stephen Pearce who has been part of the setup at Pride Park for a number of years (since 2013.)
Stunning contribution Mr or Mrs Maxwell, Sir.
Is this the fella, you are not seriously saying he works for the Administrators?
See my posting below:
July 2021 Flag
Derby County chief executive Stephen Pearce resigned yesterday from the EFL Board and is quoted as saying,"I have a duty to my club first and foremost."
Was anyone else aware Derby had a director on the EFL Board before yesterday?
He was replaced by Peter Ridsdale...anything I type after his name is superfluous, see?