Given the way that the club was sold, Aloysius is perfectly entitled to be skeptical. Such a stance does not imply that the Couhigs are scoundrels or that they haven't done a good job so far, it's just a healthy position to begin from when starting a relationship with people who have just bought something that you were forced to sell under duress. The Couhigs did their due diligence on the club before they bought into it and rightly so too, so the fact that it took a long time for the shortcomings of various former servants of the club to come to light and the fact that some people still debate whether any shortcomings even exist should perhaps inform the speed at which people wish to judge the current owners.
My recollection is that Pete was going to work for a year unpaid and Rob was also not going to take out money. Then with Covid Pete was here for a year without his family. Seems to me we owe them a lot. I have no problems with progress so far, the team has done really well and the facilities by all accounts have been improved. What is there to grumble about?
@mwite said:
My recollection is that Pete was going to work for a year unpaid and Rob was also not going to take out money. Then with Covid Pete was here for a year without his family. Seems to me we owe them a lot. I have no problems with progress so far, the team has done really well and the facilities by all accounts have been improved. What is there to grumble about?
Perhaps it’s just me @NiceCarrots but I’m puzzled why you think it important (presumably) to know how @glasshalffull felt about the prospects of our remaining in the Championship. Why does it matter any more how he felt than how the rest of us felt? And why does it matter at all? I think we all held on to some extent to the hope that we might remain but, as time went by and deadlines were seemingly either non-existent or beyond the first day of the 2021-22 season, we knew that the prospects were vanishingly small.
To answer Nice Carrots and reassure Micra, I genuinely had no idea. I am no longer ‘in the loop’ when it comes to inside information although I still have contacts within the club. I agree with those who say that we needed clarity so that we can prepare properly for the new season, but I don’t agree that we should let the matter drop and ‘move on’ as we are talking about the potential loss of a huge amount of money that could help to secure the club’s long term future. I trust Rob and Pete to make the right moves and I think we are very fortunate to have owners who are not just good businessmen but also have the club’s best interests at heart. Those who remain suspicious of their motives should remember that if they were only in it for financial gain, they could have walked away with a very healthy profit after we were promoted to the Championship.
@micra said:
Perhaps it’s just me @NiceCarrots but I’m puzzled why you think it important (presumably) to know how @glasshalffull felt about the prospects of our remaining in the Championship. Why does it matter any more how he felt than how the rest of us felt? And why does it matter at all? I think we all held on to some extent to the hope that we might remain but, as time went by and deadlines were seemingly either non-existent or beyond the first day of the 2021-22 season, we knew that the prospects were vanishingly small.
Is there a particular communication procedure I’ve missed here @micra ? I wouldn’t want to make the same mistake @NiceCarrots did.
@Ed_ If you are the same Ed that used to post on the old Gasroom intermittently, welcome back - it's been too long. Fair points, I think.
I also appreciate that I appear to be literally the only person concerned about this, but I continue to think, for all the good work the Couhigs have done, that we need to bear in mind the way that they came to own the club: pitching Trust members a deal and then substantially changing the terms during the subsequent negotiation - both in relation to the total investment and the rights attached to the Trust rent discount.
They may feel that that was fair in light of the due diligence they'd done, but neither the Trust nor the Couhigs have ever explained it. And one day, when we start to make losses again, it will become an issue, because they will look to the Trust to provide their portion of the fresh share issue we require and it will be much harder to find those funds.
(Although presumably, the Trust share of profits from last season will be taken into account, too.)
Over the years I have read criticism of the committee that ran the club pre-Brian Lee, the board of directors led by Ivor Beeks, the Steve Hayes era, the Trust years and now the Couhigs. It is right to hold those in power to account, but it appears that some fans just have to have someone they dislike or distrust. We’ll never have owners who satisfy everyone.
Speak as you find. Rob, Pete and Missy have spoken truthfully and delivered where they say they will deliver. I’ll save conspiracies to others.
And before people say hindsight is a wonderful thing and only time will tell, I thought (and many shared my opinion) that Hayes was wrongun from day 1.
Couldn't agree more @TheAndyGrahamFanClub although I was too green round the gills to catch on to Hayes before it was too late tbh! Move forward to today & he wouldn't catch me out so easily given the same circumstances, but we live, (& hopefully), learn.
Absolutely right @glasshalffull. I think the Couhigs have been brilliant for our club and they are real committed supporters.
The Steve Hayes scenario was hard to swallow but the Couhigs are not the same kind of people and have delivered on all their promises. For me they are genuine and sincere people. We are very lucky to have them.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub said:
Speak as you find. Rob, Pete and Missy have spoken truthfully and delivered where they say they will deliver. I’ll save conspiracies to others.
And before people say hindsight is a wonderful thing and only time will tell, I thought (and many shared my opinion) that Hayes was wrongun from day 1.
I was working at the Uni when they said they were giving Hayes an honorary degree, and myself and others warned senior staff that that was not a good idea. Soon after he got the award he was arrested.
Some odd stuff on pages behind, > @TwinBrother said:
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub said:
Speak as you find. Rob, Pete and Missy have spoken truthfully and delivered where they say they will deliver. I’ll save conspiracies to others.
And before people say hindsight is a wonderful thing and only time will tell, I thought (and many shared my opinion) that Hayes was wrongun from day 1.
I was working at the Uni when they said they were giving Hayes an honorary degree, and myself and others warned senior staff that that was not a good idea. Soon after he got the award he was arrested.
I'm not going to talk about the arrest as charges were dropped and it's not entirely relevant to the discussion or wwfc beyond hastening his departure and curtailing his involvement before the ultimate sale / dump onto the trust once his asset wasps was sold. He did however rub people up the wrong way and blur lines with what was his money, Wycombe's and Wasps leaving us in all sorts of trouble.
I'm sure the Couhigs legacy and involvement will be discussed for many years after they've gone too but so far I'd see their achievements as steadying the ship, clearing debt which was at a level with banks and suppliers that was unsustainable, adding a level of professionalism around the place generally, initially reversing the limited budget for our last year in L1 which it's inconceivable unless you are ultra churlish to see us getting the promotion without, seeing us through covid whilst offerring anyone who wants it money back for missed games even if they had watched them all on ifollow, improving the stadium and training ground, pitches, bars, food offerrings , holding the p takers at the EFL to account as much as was possible, at least fighting the corner,and seemingly doing the same with suppliers, competitors and staff, and setting us up for a great season in L1.
Sure there will be discussions around the sales of Uche and Fred but Ainsworth doesn't seem to mind and keeping him happy was probably made clear on takeover as being key. I'm not wholly convinced that we will be as big as they hope and have many suitors when they do eventually go but I wish them well, have no reason not to expect another few good seasons and know there were a number of other scenarios that would have been far less agreeable.
I’ll also place on record my distrust of the Steve Hayes project was there from day one. In fact it’s fair to say that his tenure very nearly drove me away.
As far as I can tell right now, we seem to have a great balance between business pragmatism and a the old feeling of togetherness. And this seems driven by both the owners and (of course) the football management team.
It’s always a good idea to keep a wary eye on any investor, but I’m not sure there’s much to be gained by carping and insinuating at every turn either.
@our_frank said: @Ed_ If you are the same Ed that used to post on the old Gasroom intermittently, welcome back - it's been too long. Fair points, I think.
I also appreciate that I appear to be literally the only person concerned about this, but I continue to think, for all the good work the Couhigs have done, that we need to bear in mind the way that they came to own the club: pitching Trust members a deal and then substantially changing the terms during the subsequent negotiation - both in relation to the total investment and the rights attached to the Trust rent discount.
They may feel that that was fair in light of the due diligence they'd done, but neither the Trust nor the Couhigs have ever explained it. And one day, when we start to make losses again, it will become an issue, because they will look to the Trust to provide their portion of the fresh share issue we require and it will be much harder to find those funds.
(Although presumably, the Trust share of profits from last season will be taken into account, too.)
Your second para is spot on @our_frank. It's a shame that other have chosen to describe this reporting of the facts as conspiracy theories. Anyone without a healthy dose of skepticism regarding the motives of football club owners hasn't been paying very close attention to the recent history either of our club or football in general.
I like the Couhigs. I certainly appreciate what they've done for us, on and off the pitch in, the last couple of years. Pete's decision to stay in Wycombe during Covid, away from his family speaks volumes about their commitment. But i don't expect them to be around ten years from now, and it's when they decide to sell that the trouble really starts.
My concern was the Trust only allowed members to have sight of the document containing the Couhig's proposal under the beady eyes of Trust board directors.
They used the same tactic when it came to discussing the financial results.
This put people off looking at the Couhigs' proposal which is exactly why the Trust board took this option.
The wording of the agreement changed from the Tuesday to the Saturday yet the reasons why have never been explained to Trust members.
On more than one occasion the Trust board had the financial results but decided not to release them before the A.G.M.
Why? And how was this democratic?
Safeguarding our heritage or running a closed shop on a need to know basis?
The fact the Trust board rejected the Couhigs' initially in favour of the Dutch has also never properly been explained.
I have absolutely no idea how things will pan out.
There seems to be more transparency now we've sold the club than when it was a trust-owned club and as we have seen from Mr Mel Morris, being a local die-hard fan is no guarantor of the club's financial security.
All we can hope is the Couhigs, acting as custodians of the club, leave it in better nick than when they bought it.
Not sure it all needs re-refereeing again. I would maybe have liked to know a bit more and argued a point or two before the sale but I got the impression relatively few people were that interested and that as the only viable game in town at the time they could pick their own terms and people would still sell. Re: the Dutch I thought feelers had been put out when the last sale collapsed and they weren't prepared to forward needed funds in the same way the Couhigs were. Once we'd accepted the loan that we would have had no way of paying back then any bargaining was going to be a bit mute.
In exchange for clearing debts and offerring a plausible way forward with some degree of trust ownership/ involvement and retention of the stadium it was a done deal and I suspect anything else was just details.
Not sure anything being suggested is worse tbh than old sharky needing 100% ownership because he was so desperate to give us his own money and couldn't possibly do so without 100% control.
Comments
Given the way that the club was sold, Aloysius is perfectly entitled to be skeptical. Such a stance does not imply that the Couhigs are scoundrels or that they haven't done a good job so far, it's just a healthy position to begin from when starting a relationship with people who have just bought something that you were forced to sell under duress. The Couhigs did their due diligence on the club before they bought into it and rightly so too, so the fact that it took a long time for the shortcomings of various former servants of the club to come to light and the fact that some people still debate whether any shortcomings even exist should perhaps inform the speed at which people wish to judge the current owners.
The @aloysius angle brings to mind the famous quote about Lib Dem Vince Cable, who 'successfully predicted 18 of the last two recessions'.
The other one is 'Even a stopped clock tells the right time, twice a day'.
I bet @aloysius always carries an umbrella.
And a condom!
My recollection is that Pete was going to work for a year unpaid and Rob was also not going to take out money. Then with Covid Pete was here for a year without his family. Seems to me we owe them a lot. I have no problems with progress so far, the team has done really well and the facilities by all accounts have been improved. What is there to grumble about?
As long as you don’t substitute one for the other you’re fine
Well said.
F.A.O. Mr Glass Half-Full.
In your opinion, did we ever have a chance of staying up over the Derby saga?
I appreciate it was 0% per cent chance once the EFL had decided not to appeal.
But before that decision, did you ever feel we had a chance of staying up?
I appreciate you may not wish to answer this for understandable reasons.
Y-I-Q,
N.C
Perhaps it’s just me @NiceCarrots but I’m puzzled why you think it important (presumably) to know how @glasshalffull felt about the prospects of our remaining in the Championship. Why does it matter any more how he felt than how the rest of us felt? And why does it matter at all? I think we all held on to some extent to the hope that we might remain but, as time went by and deadlines were seemingly either non-existent or beyond the first day of the 2021-22 season, we knew that the prospects were vanishingly small.
To answer Nice Carrots and reassure Micra, I genuinely had no idea. I am no longer ‘in the loop’ when it comes to inside information although I still have contacts within the club. I agree with those who say that we needed clarity so that we can prepare properly for the new season, but I don’t agree that we should let the matter drop and ‘move on’ as we are talking about the potential loss of a huge amount of money that could help to secure the club’s long term future. I trust Rob and Pete to make the right moves and I think we are very fortunate to have owners who are not just good businessmen but also have the club’s best interests at heart. Those who remain suspicious of their motives should remember that if they were only in it for financial gain, they could have walked away with a very healthy profit after we were promoted to the Championship.
F.A.O GHF,
I agree with everything you've written above and thank you.
Micra - must remember to run questions past you before posting.
Is there a particular communication procedure I’ve missed here @micra ? I wouldn’t want to make the same mistake @NiceCarrots did.
@Ed_ If you are the same Ed that used to post on the old Gasroom intermittently, welcome back - it's been too long. Fair points, I think.
I also appreciate that I appear to be literally the only person concerned about this, but I continue to think, for all the good work the Couhigs have done, that we need to bear in mind the way that they came to own the club: pitching Trust members a deal and then substantially changing the terms during the subsequent negotiation - both in relation to the total investment and the rights attached to the Trust rent discount.
They may feel that that was fair in light of the due diligence they'd done, but neither the Trust nor the Couhigs have ever explained it. And one day, when we start to make losses again, it will become an issue, because they will look to the Trust to provide their portion of the fresh share issue we require and it will be much harder to find those funds.
(Although presumably, the Trust share of profits from last season will be taken into account, too.)
Over the years I have read criticism of the committee that ran the club pre-Brian Lee, the board of directors led by Ivor Beeks, the Steve Hayes era, the Trust years and now the Couhigs. It is right to hold those in power to account, but it appears that some fans just have to have someone they dislike or distrust. We’ll never have owners who satisfy everyone.
Speak as you find. Rob, Pete and Missy have spoken truthfully and delivered where they say they will deliver. I’ll save conspiracies to others.
And before people say hindsight is a wonderful thing and only time will tell, I thought (and many shared my opinion) that Hayes was wrongun from day 1.
Couldn't agree more @TheAndyGrahamFanClub although I was too green round the gills to catch on to Hayes before it was too late tbh! Move forward to today & he wouldn't catch me out so easily given the same circumstances, but we live, (& hopefully), learn.
Absolutely right @glasshalffull. I think the Couhigs have been brilliant for our club and they are real committed supporters.
The Steve Hayes scenario was hard to swallow but the Couhigs are not the same kind of people and have delivered on all their promises. For me they are genuine and sincere people. We are very lucky to have them.
I was working at the Uni when they said they were giving Hayes an honorary degree, and myself and others warned senior staff that that was not a good idea. Soon after he got the award he was arrested.
Some odd stuff on pages behind, > @TwinBrother said:
I'm not going to talk about the arrest as charges were dropped and it's not entirely relevant to the discussion or wwfc beyond hastening his departure and curtailing his involvement before the ultimate sale / dump onto the trust once his asset wasps was sold. He did however rub people up the wrong way and blur lines with what was his money, Wycombe's and Wasps leaving us in all sorts of trouble.
I'm sure the Couhigs legacy and involvement will be discussed for many years after they've gone too but so far I'd see their achievements as steadying the ship, clearing debt which was at a level with banks and suppliers that was unsustainable, adding a level of professionalism around the place generally, initially reversing the limited budget for our last year in L1 which it's inconceivable unless you are ultra churlish to see us getting the promotion without, seeing us through covid whilst offerring anyone who wants it money back for missed games even if they had watched them all on ifollow, improving the stadium and training ground, pitches, bars, food offerrings , holding the p takers at the EFL to account as much as was possible, at least fighting the corner,and seemingly doing the same with suppliers, competitors and staff, and setting us up for a great season in L1.
Sure there will be discussions around the sales of Uche and Fred but Ainsworth doesn't seem to mind and keeping him happy was probably made clear on takeover as being key. I'm not wholly convinced that we will be as big as they hope and have many suitors when they do eventually go but I wish them well, have no reason not to expect another few good seasons and know there were a number of other scenarios that would have been far less agreeable.
I’ll also place on record my distrust of the Steve Hayes project was there from day one. In fact it’s fair to say that his tenure very nearly drove me away.
As far as I can tell right now, we seem to have a great balance between business pragmatism and a the old feeling of togetherness. And this seems driven by both the owners and (of course) the football management team.
It’s always a good idea to keep a wary eye on any investor, but I’m not sure there’s much to be gained by carping and insinuating at every turn either.
Your second para is spot on @our_frank. It's a shame that other have chosen to describe this reporting of the facts as conspiracy theories. Anyone without a healthy dose of skepticism regarding the motives of football club owners hasn't been paying very close attention to the recent history either of our club or football in general.
I like the Couhigs. I certainly appreciate what they've done for us, on and off the pitch in, the last couple of years. Pete's decision to stay in Wycombe during Covid, away from his family speaks volumes about their commitment. But i don't expect them to be around ten years from now, and it's when they decide to sell that the trouble really starts.
My concern was the Trust only allowed members to have sight of the document containing the Couhig's proposal under the beady eyes of Trust board directors.
They used the same tactic when it came to discussing the financial results.
This put people off looking at the Couhigs' proposal which is exactly why the Trust board took this option.
The wording of the agreement changed from the Tuesday to the Saturday yet the reasons why have never been explained to Trust members.
On more than one occasion the Trust board had the financial results but decided not to release them before the A.G.M.
Why? And how was this democratic?
Safeguarding our heritage or running a closed shop on a need to know basis?
The fact the Trust board rejected the Couhigs' initially in favour of the Dutch has also never properly been explained.
I have absolutely no idea how things will pan out.
There seems to be more transparency now we've sold the club than when it was a trust-owned club and as we have seen from Mr Mel Morris, being a local die-hard fan is no guarantor of the club's financial security.
All we can hope is the Couhigs, acting as custodians of the club, leave it in better nick than when they bought it.
Sorry for the long post...
Am I being stupid or was the training ground not so heavily branded as Marlow Road before the Couhigs came in?
The Marlow Road training ground thing is certainly new from my memory. Clearly part of a master plan for when they merge us with Marlow.
Not sure it all needs re-refereeing again. I would maybe have liked to know a bit more and argued a point or two before the sale but I got the impression relatively few people were that interested and that as the only viable game in town at the time they could pick their own terms and people would still sell. Re: the Dutch I thought feelers had been put out when the last sale collapsed and they weren't prepared to forward needed funds in the same way the Couhigs were. Once we'd accepted the loan that we would have had no way of paying back then any bargaining was going to be a bit mute.
In exchange for clearing debts and offerring a plausible way forward with some degree of trust ownership/ involvement and retention of the stadium it was a done deal and I suspect anything else was just details.
Not sure anything being suggested is worse tbh than old sharky needing 100% ownership because he was so desperate to give us his own money and couldn't possibly do so without 100% control.
That training ground sign is going to confuse some visiting fans driving past.
Screenshot_20210705-142541_Twitter.jpg
Darn I can't do a link - can anybody help?
Posted 1 hour ago
Pearce has quit his role at the EFL
Screenshot_20210705-142541_Twitter.jpg
Not sure what you're trying to link to but there is this: