I’m with @HolmerBlue. League 1 it is. Every time a new post has popped up on this thread I’ve clicked on it with hope in my heart but I’m going to give it a miss from now on whilst keeping an eye out for a “Derby Down!!” or “Back Where We Belong” thread.
@Gary said:
From my understanding, the EFL and Derby have their opportunity to have their say on what the sanction should be - this is directly to the DC. The DC then make their decision on the punishment and Derby cannot appeal this decision? That’s how I read it but I may be way off the mark.
Derby get to propose their own punishment? This just gets better and better.
"I say we should be paraded through the streets of Nottingham on a golden ram float, being fed grapes and fanned with ostrich feathers. That'll show us!"
"If" any punishment is needed.
"Partial" success of the appeal?
Surprised they don't try and claim it's all a "little mis-understanding" and then arrogantly put a message about looking forward to welcoming fans back in the championship next season
@Gary said:
From my understanding, the EFL and Derby have their opportunity to have their say on what the sanction should be - this is directly to the DC. The DC then make their decision on the punishment and Derby cannot appeal this decision? That’s how I read it but I may be way off the mark.
Derby get to propose their own punishment? This just gets better and better.
"I say we should be paraded through the streets of Nottingham on a golden ram float, being fed grapes and fanned with ostrich feathers. That'll show us!"
That’s how I’ve read it yes. In fact, here it is in black and white, from the EFL statement.
The Club and EFL will now have the opportunity to make submissions on the appropriate sanction arising out of those breaches.
I read that section as the EFL and Derby being able to appeal the decision on the sanction that the DComm decide upon before it is confirmed as final, not necessarily saying what it should be before a sanction is put forward.
Proposing your own sanction is very popular with the rich clubs. It's only the poor clubs who cannot afford the 'lunches' that get fcuked over by the EFL and FA. Derby is a cesspool but I suspect that the EFL will want to carry favour with their celeb manager.
Having both parties make submissions prior to the final sanction is very normal. Its their opportunity to bring up mitigating or aggravating factors. It happens in actual criminal cases, too.
@Dan This was the result of a lost appeal. Mitigation. Excuses. Pleas for clemency. Notes from mums. Etc should already have been submitted. This goes back a long time now.
The EFL have a tough decision to make and they are not an organisation that like making them, unless they are against little clubs.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub Sorry, but @Dan is right. If you were in court for theft, you would expect that your defence team did its best to get you acquitted. But when they were unsuccessful, you would then expect that they would have the opportunity to explain that you had a tough upbringing, were facing tough personal circumstances at the time, had a weakness for drink, etc., etc. Equally, the prosecution would expect to have their opportunity to explain why these apparently mitigating factors were twaddle, shouldn't prevent you being given a custodial sentence, etc.
It's just the way a proper justice process works, surely?
It's a matter of procedure. You can't make submissions on what the sanction should be until it's been agreed there will be a sanction, to avoid everyone talking about something that ends up not being relevant.
@Dan said:
It's a matter of procedure. You can't make submissions on what the sanction should be until it's been agreed there will be a sanction, to avoid everyone talking about something that ends up not being relevant.
Oh Dan, what's the Gasroom going to do all summer now ...
@Dan & @our_frank Not disagreeing with you when it comes to process. I am more saying that everything that could be heard in terms of mitigation should now be in the hands of the EFL as it was an appeal overturning the original verdict. So if the EFL sit on this for a month then say 12 point deduction, 6 suspended starting 2021/2 season (which is what I suspect will be the case) then Derby can then say 'oh one more thing' do we wait another month? I don't know. The fact that Derby seems to have p1ssed everyone off in the Championship is largely down to their slippery approach to this and sanctions whilst SW were hit and got on with it.
Again purely from an onlookers point of view because we’re in league one until told otherwise the EFL are creating a rod for their own backs unless they make the consequences enough of a deterrent
Fiddle things now, and then in a few years Derby might be in the Prem, winning it, and winning the FA cup, to loads of people wishing them well as an "underdog", "doing it the right way" and "sticking it to the big 6"
The EFL should inform Derby they either take the 6 point deduction for this season, or they have 3 points deducted from both the1971/72 and the 74/75 season.
@Malone said:
Fiddle things now, and then in a few years Derby might be in the Prem, winning it, and winning the FA cup, to loads of people wishing them well as an "underdog", "doing it the right way" and "sticking it to the big 6"
Really well put, though to be fair, if Derby were in the PL I would still rather they won it than any of the rich six!
SW did indeed appeal, and won, against the imposition of a 12 point deduction which was subsequently reduced to 6 earlier this season 2020/21.
Grounds for the appeal were that the disciplinary panel had not taken account of mitigating circumstance - the actual sale of Pride Park. A complicated case which basically revolved around the timing of the sale (although they didn't over inflate the price as did Derby).
If I recall correctly the club/owners claimed to have been talking about the sale for months but didn't actual finally decide to do so until, for example, 1st July with paperwork draw up and signed on, for example, 1st Aug but including a clause pre-dating the sale to 1st March so they could include in prior year accounts.
Arguement went along the lines that it was fair to consider the sale to have occured on 1st July but not 1st March. The original panel didn't take account that the sale actually occured at all when imposing original 12 point deduction, hence being reduced to 6 on appeal.
I forget exactly but either the original 12 point deduction was 6 for the breach plus 6 which was a suspended sentence from a previous breach OR the 12 point deduction was reduced to 6 plus a further 6 suspended.
Their was also a lot written, in the appeal adjudication, about whether the EFL had to accept the accounts as submitted or if they could make interpretation of the intent behind those "facts" as included in the accounts.
From memory, but I could be totally wrong, the adjudication was that the EFL could make interpretation of the intent. Potentially very relevent in the case against Derby - if my memory is correct.
Word has spread and I bet those oligarchs, Sheikhs and billionaires are having a few sleepless nights now the former secretary of Southport fc is on the case
Disciplinary Committee not due to meet for at least a fortnight
Derby likely to appeal any decision
final final final outcome not expected until middle of next year, assuming Derby do appeal any decision
Derby think that the disciplinary committee is an archaic institution they can ride rings around, little do they know the EFL are buying another one of Mr Edison’s wax cylinder phonographs to double its capacity to record meetings.
Comments
I’m with @HolmerBlue. League 1 it is. Every time a new post has popped up on this thread I’ve clicked on it with hope in my heart but I’m going to give it a miss from now on whilst keeping an eye out for a “Derby Down!!” or “Back Where We Belong” thread.
Derby get to propose their own punishment? This just gets better and better.
"I say we should be paraded through the streets of Nottingham on a golden ram float, being fed grapes and fanned with ostrich feathers. That'll show us!"
"If" any punishment is needed.
"Partial" success of the appeal?
Surprised they don't try and claim it's all a "little mis-understanding" and then arrogantly put a message about looking forward to welcoming fans back in the championship next season
That’s how I’ve read it yes. In fact, here it is in black and white, from the EFL statement.
@Gary
I read that section as the EFL and Derby being able to appeal the decision on the sanction that the DComm decide upon before it is confirmed as final, not necessarily saying what it should be before a sanction is put forward.
But your reading could be correct... who knows
Proposing your own sanction is very popular with the rich clubs. It's only the poor clubs who cannot afford the 'lunches' that get fcuked over by the EFL and FA. Derby is a cesspool but I suspect that the EFL will want to carry favour with their celeb manager.
Having both parties make submissions prior to the final sanction is very normal. Its their opportunity to bring up mitigating or aggravating factors. It happens in actual criminal cases, too.
@Dan This was the result of a lost appeal. Mitigation. Excuses. Pleas for clemency. Notes from mums. Etc should already have been submitted. This goes back a long time now.
The EFL have a tough decision to make and they are not an organisation that like making them, unless they are against little clubs.
@TheAndyGrahamFanClub Sorry, but @Dan is right. If you were in court for theft, you would expect that your defence team did its best to get you acquitted. But when they were unsuccessful, you would then expect that they would have the opportunity to explain that you had a tough upbringing, were facing tough personal circumstances at the time, had a weakness for drink, etc., etc. Equally, the prosecution would expect to have their opportunity to explain why these apparently mitigating factors were twaddle, shouldn't prevent you being given a custodial sentence, etc.
It's just the way a proper justice process works, surely?
It's a matter of procedure. You can't make submissions on what the sanction should be until it's been agreed there will be a sanction, to avoid everyone talking about something that ends up not being relevant.
Exactly.
Oh Dan, what's the Gasroom going to do all summer now ...
@Dan & @our_frank Not disagreeing with you when it comes to process. I am more saying that everything that could be heard in terms of mitigation should now be in the hands of the EFL as it was an appeal overturning the original verdict. So if the EFL sit on this for a month then say 12 point deduction, 6 suspended starting 2021/2 season (which is what I suspect will be the case) then Derby can then say 'oh one more thing' do we wait another month? I don't know. The fact that Derby seems to have p1ssed everyone off in the Championship is largely down to their slippery approach to this and sanctions whilst SW were hit and got on with it.
Again purely from an onlookers point of view because we’re in league one until told otherwise the EFL are creating a rod for their own backs unless they make the consequences enough of a deterrent
Fiddle things now, and then in a few years Derby might be in the Prem, winning it, and winning the FA cup, to loads of people wishing them well as an "underdog", "doing it the right way" and "sticking it to the big 6"
The EFL should inform Derby they either take the 6 point deduction for this season, or they have 3 points deducted from both the1971/72 and the 74/75 season.
Really well put, though to be fair, if Derby were in the PL I would still rather they won it than any of the rich six!
I fully expect to be long gone by the time Derby are challenging at the highest level.
If Derby get deducted 12 points, will it be the first time a club has been docked more points than they once managed in a season?
I'm watching the Barnsley playoff game. Wouldn't want to watch that every week.
They could use one of those phantom penalties about now.
I don’t think Derby can appeal against the judgement, whenever it is handed out
Sheffield appealed and won or was that a different circumstance?
SW did indeed appeal, and won, against the imposition of a 12 point deduction which was subsequently reduced to 6 earlier this season 2020/21.
Grounds for the appeal were that the disciplinary panel had not taken account of mitigating circumstance - the actual sale of Pride Park. A complicated case which basically revolved around the timing of the sale (although they didn't over inflate the price as did Derby).
If I recall correctly the club/owners claimed to have been talking about the sale for months but didn't actual finally decide to do so until, for example, 1st July with paperwork draw up and signed on, for example, 1st Aug but including a clause pre-dating the sale to 1st March so they could include in prior year accounts.
Arguement went along the lines that it was fair to consider the sale to have occured on 1st July but not 1st March. The original panel didn't take account that the sale actually occured at all when imposing original 12 point deduction, hence being reduced to 6 on appeal.
I forget exactly but either the original 12 point deduction was 6 for the breach plus 6 which was a suspended sentence from a previous breach OR the 12 point deduction was reduced to 6 plus a further 6 suspended.
Their was also a lot written, in the appeal adjudication, about whether the EFL had to accept the accounts as submitted or if they could make interpretation of the intent behind those "facts" as included in the accounts.
From memory, but I could be totally wrong, the adjudication was that the EFL could make interpretation of the intent. Potentially very relevent in the case against Derby - if my memory is correct.
It's ok, a fan-led review into football finances is on the way......
Word has spread and I bet those oligarchs, Sheikhs and billionaires are having a few sleepless nights now the former secretary of Southport fc is on the case
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11696/12317470/derby-and-efl-wrangle-over-alleged-accounting-irregularities-could-last-months
Key points:
Derby think that the disciplinary committee is an archaic institution they can ride rings around, little do they know the EFL are buying another one of Mr Edison’s wax cylinder phonographs to double its capacity to record meetings.
What a joke.
They manage to get away with it first time round, then when they finally get picked up on it'll take half a year to sort out?
Maybe we'll benefit from their points ban when we're back up in 2022/23!
Another team doing dodgy financing.