It’s very hard to dismiss the thought that the EFL decision might be prejudiced just a teeny weeny bit by the relative size, number of paying customers and financial clout (?) of the clubs directly affected by Derby County’s alleged misdemeanours.
So hanging round the Derby fans forum their fans seem to hang a lot on this story from an Alan Nixon “sports journalist ” claiming that Derbys Championship place this season is not in doubt. That’s fine by me and good luck to them except the only Alan Nixon I can find is a second year student at the university of Derby who works in a pub so take it as you will.
This doesn’t seem as straight forward though. If there wasn’t the appeal from Derby, it’s entirely possible their punishment (whatever that may be) would have been enforced this season.
Also, I’m trying not to read between the lines that the decision was made before the final game of the standard season - was this done to allow for a points deduction this season to be one of the possible sanctions perhaps?
Some of my favourite people are bar staff and my guess is that any sanction will be next season but this is piece just supposition.
I can’t see the logic in giving Derby a fine if they are in such deep financial difficulties
So hanging round the Derby fans forum their fans seem to hang a lot on this story from an Alan Nixon “sports journalist ” claiming that Derbys Championship place this season is not in doubt. That’s fine by me and good luck to them except the only Alan Nixon I can find is a second year student at the university of Derby who works in a pub so take it as you will.
Alan Niton is one of the most well known tabloid type journos.
So hanging round the Derby fans forum their fans seem to hang a lot on this story from an Alan Nixon “sports journalist ” claiming that Derbys Championship place this season is not in doubt. That’s fine by me and good luck to them except the only Alan Nixon I can find is a second year student at the university of Derby who works in a pub so take it as you will.
Alan Niton is one of the most well known tabloid type journos.
Darn this site not always allowing an edit on a mobile.
Nixon!!
There is perhaps another way of looking at the decision facing the decision makers, given that precedent does allow the possibility of the points deduction being for the season that has just finished.
What sort of club would you rather have in your marquee division to protect the brand?
A financially settled club with a proven record of being able to compete in the division or a zombie club, crippled by debt and associated in an unsavory way with the worst aspects of sponsorship, who starting with a points deduction will only fester at the foot of the table.
@Haytor06 said:
It say in the efl rules if a club is found guilty the points reduction will be for the following season so it looks like we will still be going down
It doesn’t. There is one section, about Rule 22 I think, that says when a points deduction for administration is applied and what that deduction is -12 pts.
The section that applies here is sanctions for other issues - including financial irregularities - about rules 89-94. Rule 92, or thereabouts, states it can be applied immediately, deferred or suspended.
Think I have the actual rule numbers in a post earlier in this thread but not got access to the EFL rules webpage on this phone to get the actual numbers and wording but I’m sure RC could recite them backwards
I’m not sure the EFL will care too much about the respective size of the clubs involved. They are just incredibly slow and inefficient so it will be weeks before they decide anything and months before any appeal is heard.
For any points to be deducted this season all of that would need to happen by the end of May. Not a chance
@bookertease said:
I’m not sure the EFL will care too much about the respective size of the clubs involved. They are just incredibly slow and inefficient so it will be weeks before they decide anything and months before any appeal is heard.
For any points to be deducted this season all of that would need to happen by the end of May. Not a chance
Did I see somewhere that there isn't actually an appeal to this?
The appeal won out from the original charge, and the EFL have got that appeal overturned, but just taken a massive age to do it.
What does sound ominous though, is what a Derby supporter pointed out on their forum.
That Alan Nixon seemed to be almost on a one man mission to annihilate Derby with his tweets, but is now all of a sudden claiming relegation this season "was never" on the table.
I guess that Derby could/would eventually appeal the actual punishment/points deduction, although in relegation terms that would be unlikely to help them remain in the Championship (if that occurred 'this season').
This is after an appeal so I wonder if it’s like US plea bargaining whereas if you admit wrongdoing at an early stage you get a lesser punishment.
It’s also interesting to read from the position of bystander how only being found guilty on appeal of one count of cheating is enough for most County fans to demand complete exoneration. They obviously haven’t heard of the you can’t be a little bit pregnant analogy.
I am interested to see what sanction they will get.
It makes no difference to our position however.
94.7 Following a Disciplinary Appeal, the League Arbitration Tribunal shall have the power to:
94.7.1 confirm the decision; or
94.7.2 set aside the decision in whole or in part and substitute a new decision; or
94.7.3 order a rehearing before a differently constituted Disciplinary Commission.
I have no idea whether the second or third applies here.
If a sanction is now imposed.
94.5 Any party against whom penalties were imposed under Regulation 92 may apply, initially in writing, to the League Arbitration Tribunal for an order that such penalties be suspended pending the resolution of the Disciplinary Appeal. The League Arbitration Tribunal shall determine any such application having regard to the merits of the Disciplinary Appeal and the representations of the other parties.
But
92.5 The Disciplinary Commission shall have the power to abridge the time period set out in Regulation 94.3 (time limits for appeal) if there is a compelling reason why the appeal (if any) needs to be concluded expeditiously.
The original DComm concluded DCty were not in breach. This was overturned on appeal by EFL, but I don’t know if LAT also determine a penalty. If not the original DComm might not impose a severe (points) sanction but a new one might.
Just looking at the Derby statement it says “ The Club and the EFL have agreed that the matter shall now be remitted back to the original DC who can determine what, if any, consequences arise from the partial success of the EFL’s Amortisation charge”.
So it looks as the DComm who originally found the amortisation acceptable are to be the ones who now have to determine any sanction.
Seems a little off to me that the auditor who signed things off is a Derby fan - and that the auditing firm used to own the rights to one of the stands at Pride Park (this came up on the Price of Football pod).
From my understanding, the EFL and Derby have their opportunity to have their say on what the sanction should be - this is directly to the DC. The DC then make their decision on the punishment and Derby cannot appeal this decision? That’s how I read it but I may be way off the mark.
Comments
It’s very hard to dismiss the thought that the EFL decision might be prejudiced just a teeny weeny bit by the relative size, number of paying customers and financial clout (?) of the clubs directly affected by Derby County’s alleged misdemeanours.
The efl are the ones who have pushed to bring this through to a proper punishment though. That can't be overlooked.
https://footballleagueworld.co.uk/update-emerges-concerning-derby-countys-championship-status-after-efl-appeal/
So hanging round the Derby fans forum their fans seem to hang a lot on this story from an Alan Nixon “sports journalist ” claiming that Derbys Championship place this season is not in doubt. That’s fine by me and good luck to them except the only Alan Nixon I can find is a second year student at the university of Derby who works in a pub so take it as you will.
He is real. Whether he's a real journalist is debatable I suppose, as he works for a certain rag.
It say in the efl rules if a club is found guilty the points reduction will be for the following season so it looks like we will still be going down
This doesn’t seem as straight forward though. If there wasn’t the appeal from Derby, it’s entirely possible their punishment (whatever that may be) would have been enforced this season.
Also, I’m trying not to read between the lines that the decision was made before the final game of the standard season - was this done to allow for a points deduction this season to be one of the possible sanctions perhaps?
Some of my favourite people are bar staff and my guess is that any sanction will be next season but this is piece just supposition.
I can’t see the logic in giving Derby a fine if they are in such deep financial difficulties
Alan Niton is one of the most well known tabloid type journos.
Darn this site not always allowing an edit on a mobile.
Nixon!!
There is perhaps another way of looking at the decision facing the decision makers, given that precedent does allow the possibility of the points deduction being for the season that has just finished.
What sort of club would you rather have in your marquee division to protect the brand?
A financially settled club with a proven record of being able to compete in the division or a zombie club, crippled by debt and associated in an unsavory way with the worst aspects of sponsorship, who starting with a points deduction will only fester at the foot of the table.
It doesn’t. There is one section, about Rule 22 I think, that says when a points deduction for administration is applied and what that deduction is -12 pts.
The section that applies here is sanctions for other issues - including financial irregularities - about rules 89-94. Rule 92, or thereabouts, states it can be applied immediately, deferred or suspended.
Think I have the actual rule numbers in a post earlier in this thread but not got access to the EFL rules webpage on this phone to get the actual numbers and wording but I’m sure RC could recite them backwards
I’m not sure the EFL will care too much about the respective size of the clubs involved. They are just incredibly slow and inefficient so it will be weeks before they decide anything and months before any appeal is heard.
For any points to be deducted this season all of that would need to happen by the end of May. Not a chance
I know it was different as they'd already had an initial deduction, but Macclesfield were deducted points - and relegated - in August.
I’ve set my mind on us being in Div 1 and if anything happens to the contrary then that is a bonus.
Ditto
It’s a ditto from me
Triple ditto.
4xditto
Did I see somewhere that there isn't actually an appeal to this?
The appeal won out from the original charge, and the EFL have got that appeal overturned, but just taken a massive age to do it.
What does sound ominous though, is what a Derby supporter pointed out on their forum.
That Alan Nixon seemed to be almost on a one man mission to annihilate Derby with his tweets, but is now all of a sudden claiming relegation this season "was never" on the table.
I guess that Derby could/would eventually appeal the actual punishment/points deduction, although in relegation terms that would be unlikely to help them remain in the Championship (if that occurred 'this season').
This is after an appeal so I wonder if it’s like US plea bargaining whereas if you admit wrongdoing at an early stage you get a lesser punishment.
It’s also interesting to read from the position of bystander how only being found guilty on appeal of one count of cheating is enough for most County fans to demand complete exoneration. They obviously haven’t heard of the you can’t be a little bit pregnant analogy.
I am interested to see what sanction they will get.
It makes no difference to our position however.
@Malone
94.7 Following a Disciplinary Appeal, the League Arbitration Tribunal shall have the power to:
94.7.1 confirm the decision; or
94.7.2 set aside the decision in whole or in part and substitute a new decision; or
94.7.3 order a rehearing before a differently constituted Disciplinary Commission.
I have no idea whether the second or third applies here.
If a sanction is now imposed.
94.5 Any party against whom penalties were imposed under Regulation 92 may apply, initially in writing, to the League Arbitration Tribunal for an order that such penalties be suspended pending the resolution of the Disciplinary Appeal. The League Arbitration Tribunal shall determine any such application having regard to the merits of the Disciplinary Appeal and the representations of the other parties.
But
92.5 The Disciplinary Commission shall have the power to abridge the time period set out in Regulation 94.3 (time limits for appeal) if there is a compelling reason why the appeal (if any) needs to be concluded expeditiously.
The original DComm concluded DCty were not in breach. This was overturned on appeal by EFL, but I don’t know if LAT also determine a penalty. If not the original DComm might not impose a severe (points) sanction but a new one might.
So in short, we don't really have a clue
1) What any penalty will be anyway and
2) When it'll be meted out.
That’s about the long and short of it.
Que sera sera (or however it’s spelt)
The EFL said in their statement that there's no timescale for sanctions, which, as ever, is about as useful as a chocolate teapot.
@malone.
Just looking at the Derby statement it says “ The Club and the EFL have agreed that the matter shall now be remitted back to the original DC who can determine what, if any, consequences arise from the partial success of the EFL’s Amortisation charge”.
So it looks as the DComm who originally found the amortisation acceptable are to be the ones who now have to determine any sanction.
That seems crazy to me. If they found them innocent originally, the appeal in essece went against their perspective.
You almost couldn't make it up.
Seems a little off to me that the auditor who signed things off is a Derby fan - and that the auditing firm used to own the rights to one of the stands at Pride Park (this came up on the Price of Football pod).
From my understanding, the EFL and Derby have their opportunity to have their say on what the sanction should be - this is directly to the DC. The DC then make their decision on the punishment and Derby cannot appeal this decision? That’s how I read it but I may be way off the mark.