I thought VAR might stop some of the cheating in leagues that have it and maybe it has a bit.
The biggest problem for me is the narrative of a player being entitled to go down because he felt a touch. Whilst that seems ok we'll continue seeing giant centre halves swan diving in the box if someone brushes their shirt cuff.
Many greats of the past would have been embarrassed to do that. Now Phil Foden gets questioned for not falling over despite passing the supermarket test.
In all the time I have been watching us...those scrambles in the box always have my heart in my throat. I have no complaints with the pen or the red card decisions last night, though what a lino is for if not to point out fouls on or off the ball right in front of them I'm not sure. Second goal killed us. I didn't think the ref was that bad or notice that their behaviour was any worse than ours and what we see every day in the EFL to be honest. Their third was a good goal and so was ours. I worry sometimes that we come to life far too late to rescue the game...it was not impossible but very hopeful to expect anything out of the game at 2-0 at 70 minutes I felt.
All good points @Commoner, but this "referee is always right" rhetoric is nonsense also, and your points apply equally to the refs.
In what other job is it acceptable to make endless, massive errors at the one thing you're supposed to do and face no consequences? In normal life that would mean being put on notice or sent on a training course.
In what job can you relentlessly make judgement calls that cost another organisation millions of pounds and face no consequences? In normal life you'd be sacked, in court, or both.
In what job is it acceptable to constantly blame someone else (the players) and not look at your role in the outcome? In normal life that would be considered unacceptable and lead to a performance improvement program.
The ref who gave a penalty against us when someone kicked Fred from behind wasn't bullied, he is the bully.
I was at Birmingham last night so can only rely on what I’ve seen on the video, but it’s a ridiculous penalty award and it was the ref who gave it as the assist was running back towards the half way line. As for Woodrow’s celebration’, he should be ashamed of himself and should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute.
The ref who gave a penalty against us when someone kicked Fred from behind wasn't bullied, he is the bully.
What a bizarre word to use for a referee doing his job. Clearly the standard of most referees in the Championship is debatable but they don't deliberately go out to have a crap game. We probably would have had a few more points if refereeing decisions had gone our way but that's not the reason we are adrift at the bottom of the league.
@drcongo said:
All good points @Commoner, but this "referee is always right" rhetoric is nonsense also, and your points apply equally to the refs.
In what other job is it acceptable to make endless, massive errors at the one thing you're supposed to do and face no consequences? In normal life that would mean being put on notice or sent on a training course.
In what job can you relentlessly make judgement calls that cost another organisation millions of pounds and face no consequences? In normal life you'd be sacked, in court, or both.
In what job is it acceptable to constantly blame someone else (the players) and not look at your role in the outcome? In normal life that would be considered unacceptable and lead to a performance improvement program.
The ref who gave a penalty against us when someone kicked Fred from behind wasn't bullied, he is the bully.
I'm not sure it was directed at me but just to clarify I do not believe the referee and his assistants are always right, they make mistakes and this is human nature. I'm accepting of them making mistakes even though emotionally it can be difficult to swallow.
Refereeing is an absolute nightmare, they have a split second to make a decision and I think on the whole most of them do a very difficult job pretty well.
The money now involved, the blatant cheating makes that job harder because they know if they get it wrong it will be analysed to the hilt and could have an impact on that sides fortunes.
I don't however agree with most of your assertions above.
The "judgement calls that cost another organisation millions of pounds and face no consequences?" - generally sides have other opportunities during the 90 minutes to score goals and not concede them. It is very rare that one refereeing decision costs a club, it's just what the media decide to focus on. VAR (though not working well currently) should help to improve that in the mid to long term. I will agree that occasionally a refereeing decision can impact clubs but I don't agree it is the one route cause of costing them money.
The referees do not bully players when they award a decision, to even claim they do is ridiculous. Perhaps if the players were less abusive the referees may actually stop to explain the decision and the game could move on. It seems to work well in rugby, respect works both ways. I also don't see referees coming out and criticising players, managers etc in the press either. They generally keep themselves to themselves. Any discussions are done with the assessors. So again I don't agree with your point that they are bullies or they constantly blame someone else and I don't feel there is much evidence to support them blaming others.
If you genuinely believe this statement to be true then I feel you've been sucked in by the players, managers, owners and media "In what other job is it acceptable to make endless, massive errors at the one thing you're supposed to do and face no consequences?" - Do you really believe referees make endless, massive errors? They get removed from future games or dropped down to the level below when they do make a "big" mistake. Last night he got 90-95% of decisions correct when you look at the law. We may have disagreed with his interpretation but it doesn't mean he was incorrect. How is that endless, massive errors? It is a sweeping generalisation that most, including myself, have been guilty of when emotions are running high.
Last night there was so much going on off the ball it was hardly surprising some things got missed. There are only three officials. If they've seen it fair enough but if they were looking at something else how can we expect them to see it? Things get missed. I've seen, not a very good view, a replay of the Horgan challenge and it looks like their player is trying to avoid Horgan at the last minute, rather than anything sinister. There is definite contact though. Challenge on McCarthy was not a red, JJ on Sibbike was not a red, Sibbike back on JJ may have been a red but there is not a great view on replays I've seen - all of them got yellows. Knight on their attacker that started it all was a yellow. Big decisions to make and he got every one of them spot on in my view.
For me, he got one wrong and I said last night I do not believe that was a penalty but that's because if it is they are not applying the laws consistently. If penalties are being awarded for that then Thompson should have got one. There would be one awarded every single corner! At the time, I did not feel Thompson's was a cast iron penalty but once he awarded the one at the other end, I felt aggrieved.
The referee believed that in Tafa removing his arm from contact with the forward, which is clear to see, that he has fouled the player. Under the interpretations of the law he has awarded a penalty and there is evidence that could support his view. I just don't believe there was a strong enough contact or that was the correct application of the rule and he didn't apply that type of pull by defender/attacker consistently over the game. The incident in isolation, under the rules/laws, I can see why he gave it.
Finally, football is marvellous because there are so many views on decisions and interpretations of the laws that can be made. If we removed that opinion then the game would be boring.
It amuses me (and one of the reasons I avoid) to hear pundits congratulate a player for excellent ‘dark arts’ as a player dives when ‘they invite contact’ in the penalty box. Clever play, clever play. Then they have the cheek to admonish an official for being too harsh on a tackle that would ‘have been perfectly fine in my day’. Cheating is cheating fouling is fouling.
I was disappointed that stinking sack of VAR was introduced that it could not be used as a retrospective tool.
The whole VAR debate is relevant to this because the whole thing came about because at some point it became unacceptable for us to accept that referees sometimes miss things or make incorrect decisions. Never mind what we have to give up in the process, such as being able to celebrate goals properly in that moment rather than wait a few minutes for someone miles away to decide if someone's armpit is a millimetre offside in the build up.
While I retain the right to 'wet my bed' as @eric_plant would have it if the referee makes a mistake...or at least I think he does...I have to accept that once the decision is made it is made and I agree with @Commoner above that it is a team's job to score more goals than the opposition and thus make those decisions immaterial. We have been on the end of some mistakes but we've escaped some punishment for other incidents and it is not that pen that will consign us to relegation (though I do still believe ! ). Last night, letting them get a second goal was the turning point in my opinion. Referees and linos have a hard job and they are often trying to corral 22 big babies around a field. Also VAR is crap. PC ranting like a loon by the commentators is somewhat embarrassing. I did not hear Mowatt say we were shit but I do remember Darius provoking the Mackems after scoring...it's not the end of civilisation as we know it. I'm more concerned that I might have to move my seat if the dugouts are obscuring the Beechdean touchline! (I reserve the right to contradict anything I have posted here in subsequent future posts about referees as the season progresses though.)
Was nobody else wound up by Woodrows celebration. Pointing at the Wycombe corner flag, squatting and making gestures that he was shitting on us. Bordering on bringing the game into disrepute. Shows what a lowlife he is.
@drcongo said:
All good points @Commoner, but this "referee is always right" rhetoric is nonsense also, and your points apply equally to the refs.
In what other job is it acceptable to make endless, massive errors at the one thing you're supposed to do and face no consequences? In normal life that would mean being put on notice or sent on a training course.
In what job can you relentlessly make judgement calls that cost another organisation millions of pounds and face no consequences? In normal life you'd be sacked, in court, or both.
In what job is it acceptable to constantly blame someone else (the players) and not look at your role in the outcome? In normal life that would be considered unacceptable and lead to a performance improvement program.
The ref who gave a penalty against us when someone kicked Fred from behind wasn't bullied, he is the bully.
Like @Commoner, this was not directed at me but I would wish to offer a short reply:
That the referee should be the sole and final arbiter of fact is a timeless sine qua non for any sport that hopes to maintain an ethos worth anything. Whether flawless in their exercise of it or not (and it will always be not, of course), it is their essential function to make adjudications of fact as and when necessary.
If you want "better" referees, you can go out and find them - I dare say they are queuing up to have a go. In the meantime, and if you really want better ones, those others involved with the playing of the game would do well to consider whether they might be getting the quality of decisions, and the referees, that their conduct deserves.
Professional reffing is clearly harder than people think, in the thick of it, as evidenced by the number of mistakes.
Reffing a Sunday league game where everyone is overweight, old, and slow isn't going to be nearly as challenging before anyone chimes in with anecdotal evidence of their heroic exploits.
However, it is farcical that refs are not full time/professional in a pro league, and clearly not enough is done to attract proper footballing people into these roles.
Why do so few former players become refs? Despite there being a huge issue about what footballers do when they retire at 34 with very few transferable skills?
Every year another cohort of footballers reluctantly hang up their boots and exit the game, with many looking at much poorer job prospects than they had while playing. Yet dire referees stay in the game year after year.
If reffing was turned into a viable career, and saw a higher quality of applicant who better understood the game, we would get better decisions.
@eric_plant said:
The whole VAR debate is relevant to this because the whole thing came about because at some point it became unacceptable for us to accept that referees sometimes miss things or make incorrect decisions. Never mind what we have to give up in the process, such as being able to celebrate goals properly in that moment rather than wait a few minutes for someone miles away to decide if someone's armpit is a millimetre offside in the build up.
The whole idea that football refereeing decisions can be reduced such black and white decision making has ruined it as a spectacle. Previously the most highly regarded refs were those that officiated with a nuanced approach that let the game flow.
What VAR maybe should be reduced to is the original remit of "clear and obvious" errors, off the ball shenanigans (e.g. Sollbauer on Horgan), and also citing players who harangue the ref to then either punish them immediately or by the authorities later.
That's a great point actually, and I think could commentators and studio pundits not knowing the laws of the game feeds into this perception that referees make lots of mistakes.
I've long thought that all commentators, co-commentators and studio pundits should have to go on a refereeing course before every season.
I thought for a moment @eric_plant was saying that @glasshalffull had made a great point. Just shows how important it is to copy down the post you are commenting on. Oh......
Why do so few former players become refs? Despite there being a huge issue about what footballers do when they retire at 34 with very few transferable skills?
Every year another cohort of footballers reluctantly hang up their boots and exit the game, with many looking at much poorer job prospects than they had while playing. Yet dire referees stay in the game year after year.
If reffing was turned into a viable career, and saw a higher quality of applicant who better understood the game, we would get better decisions.
This would be exactly what I would bring into questioning about PGMOL and what are they doing to help the situation.
Fast tracking a referee can take 5 seasons to move from L2 to Championship.
I believe (happy to be corrected) that all referees have to put the hard yards in at the bottom before they can even get onto the PGMOL list, that can take another 5 - 10 years.
I also suspect ex-players do not want to go into it because the abuse they dished out and would subsequently get from players they may have played with. It's a bit like moving from Spurs to Arsenal or vice versa. I also think the PGMOL may keep it a closed book for players because of the abuse they have received.
I would change two things:
Fast tracking of ex-pro players and promising lower league officials into the PGMOL.
Crack down on severe abuse of officials with points deductions for repeated offences. It will soon sort itself out and behaviour will improve.
@micra said:
I thought for a moment @eric_plant was saying that @glasshalffull had made a great point. Just shows how important it is to copy down the post you are commenting on. Oh......
Actually, I think Eric does have a point. I remember doing one game where Gary Neville got the law about not touching the ball again immediately after taking a free kick completely wrong. I took a referee exam as part of my FA coaching course many years ago and I always call Dermot Gallagher before every new season to check on any law changes.
Comments
I thought VAR might stop some of the cheating in leagues that have it and maybe it has a bit.
The biggest problem for me is the narrative of a player being entitled to go down because he felt a touch. Whilst that seems ok we'll continue seeing giant centre halves swan diving in the box if someone brushes their shirt cuff.
Many greats of the past would have been embarrassed to do that. Now Phil Foden gets questioned for not falling over despite passing the supermarket test.
Referees try their best and it’s a tough job. They aren’t intentionally getting it wrong all the time.
And also, often they're not getting it wrong at all and still getting abused.
In all the time I have been watching us...those scrambles in the box always have my heart in my throat. I have no complaints with the pen or the red card decisions last night, though what a lino is for if not to point out fouls on or off the ball right in front of them I'm not sure. Second goal killed us. I didn't think the ref was that bad or notice that their behaviour was any worse than ours and what we see every day in the EFL to be honest. Their third was a good goal and so was ours. I worry sometimes that we come to life far too late to rescue the game...it was not impossible but very hopeful to expect anything out of the game at 2-0 at 70 minutes I felt.
All good points @Commoner, but this "referee is always right" rhetoric is nonsense also, and your points apply equally to the refs.
In what other job is it acceptable to make endless, massive errors at the one thing you're supposed to do and face no consequences? In normal life that would mean being put on notice or sent on a training course.
In what job can you relentlessly make judgement calls that cost another organisation millions of pounds and face no consequences? In normal life you'd be sacked, in court, or both.
In what job is it acceptable to constantly blame someone else (the players) and not look at your role in the outcome? In normal life that would be considered unacceptable and lead to a performance improvement program.
The ref who gave a penalty against us when someone kicked Fred from behind wasn't bullied, he is the bully.
Not look at your role in the outcome?
They are assessed every game aren't they?
And calling someone who makes a mistake a "bully" is ridiculous
I was at Birmingham last night so can only rely on what I’ve seen on the video, but it’s a ridiculous penalty award and it was the ref who gave it as the assist was running back towards the half way line. As for Woodrow’s celebration’, he should be ashamed of himself and should be charged with bringing the game into disrepute.
What a bizarre word to use for a referee doing his job. Clearly the standard of most referees in the Championship is debatable but they don't deliberately go out to have a crap game. We probably would have had a few more points if refereeing decisions had gone our way but that's not the reason we are adrift at the bottom of the league.
I’m surprised referees get as much right as they do. It must be incredibly difficult.
I'm not sure it was directed at me but just to clarify I do not believe the referee and his assistants are always right, they make mistakes and this is human nature. I'm accepting of them making mistakes even though emotionally it can be difficult to swallow.
Refereeing is an absolute nightmare, they have a split second to make a decision and I think on the whole most of them do a very difficult job pretty well.
The money now involved, the blatant cheating makes that job harder because they know if they get it wrong it will be analysed to the hilt and could have an impact on that sides fortunes.
I don't however agree with most of your assertions above.
The "judgement calls that cost another organisation millions of pounds and face no consequences?" - generally sides have other opportunities during the 90 minutes to score goals and not concede them. It is very rare that one refereeing decision costs a club, it's just what the media decide to focus on. VAR (though not working well currently) should help to improve that in the mid to long term. I will agree that occasionally a refereeing decision can impact clubs but I don't agree it is the one route cause of costing them money.
The referees do not bully players when they award a decision, to even claim they do is ridiculous. Perhaps if the players were less abusive the referees may actually stop to explain the decision and the game could move on. It seems to work well in rugby, respect works both ways. I also don't see referees coming out and criticising players, managers etc in the press either. They generally keep themselves to themselves. Any discussions are done with the assessors. So again I don't agree with your point that they are bullies or they constantly blame someone else and I don't feel there is much evidence to support them blaming others.
If you genuinely believe this statement to be true then I feel you've been sucked in by the players, managers, owners and media "In what other job is it acceptable to make endless, massive errors at the one thing you're supposed to do and face no consequences?" - Do you really believe referees make endless, massive errors? They get removed from future games or dropped down to the level below when they do make a "big" mistake. Last night he got 90-95% of decisions correct when you look at the law. We may have disagreed with his interpretation but it doesn't mean he was incorrect. How is that endless, massive errors? It is a sweeping generalisation that most, including myself, have been guilty of when emotions are running high.
Last night there was so much going on off the ball it was hardly surprising some things got missed. There are only three officials. If they've seen it fair enough but if they were looking at something else how can we expect them to see it? Things get missed. I've seen, not a very good view, a replay of the Horgan challenge and it looks like their player is trying to avoid Horgan at the last minute, rather than anything sinister. There is definite contact though. Challenge on McCarthy was not a red, JJ on Sibbike was not a red, Sibbike back on JJ may have been a red but there is not a great view on replays I've seen - all of them got yellows. Knight on their attacker that started it all was a yellow. Big decisions to make and he got every one of them spot on in my view.
For me, he got one wrong and I said last night I do not believe that was a penalty but that's because if it is they are not applying the laws consistently. If penalties are being awarded for that then Thompson should have got one. There would be one awarded every single corner! At the time, I did not feel Thompson's was a cast iron penalty but once he awarded the one at the other end, I felt aggrieved.
The referee believed that in Tafa removing his arm from contact with the forward, which is clear to see, that he has fouled the player. Under the interpretations of the law he has awarded a penalty and there is evidence that could support his view. I just don't believe there was a strong enough contact or that was the correct application of the rule and he didn't apply that type of pull by defender/attacker consistently over the game. The incident in isolation, under the rules/laws, I can see why he gave it.
Finally, football is marvellous because there are so many views on decisions and interpretations of the laws that can be made. If we removed that opinion then the game would be boring.
A ten minute spell in a sin bin every time a player argues with the ref might be a start to improve the situation.
It amuses me (and one of the reasons I avoid) to hear pundits congratulate a player for excellent ‘dark arts’ as a player dives when ‘they invite contact’ in the penalty box. Clever play, clever play. Then they have the cheek to admonish an official for being too harsh on a tackle that would ‘have been perfectly fine in my day’. Cheating is cheating fouling is fouling.
I was disappointed that stinking sack of VAR was introduced that it could not be used as a retrospective tool.
The whole VAR debate is relevant to this because the whole thing came about because at some point it became unacceptable for us to accept that referees sometimes miss things or make incorrect decisions. Never mind what we have to give up in the process, such as being able to celebrate goals properly in that moment rather than wait a few minutes for someone miles away to decide if someone's armpit is a millimetre offside in the build up.
Are they though? Like the press running the press complaints commission isn't it. Nothing is ever done.
If they are assessed properly after each game I’m surprised to see most of them employed still.
While I retain the right to 'wet my bed' as @eric_plant would have it if the referee makes a mistake...or at least I think he does...I have to accept that once the decision is made it is made and I agree with @Commoner above that it is a team's job to score more goals than the opposition and thus make those decisions immaterial. We have been on the end of some mistakes but we've escaped some punishment for other incidents and it is not that pen that will consign us to relegation (though I do still believe !
). Last night, letting them get a second goal was the turning point in my opinion. Referees and linos have a hard job and they are often trying to corral 22 big babies around a field. Also VAR is crap. PC ranting like a loon by the commentators is somewhat embarrassing. I did not hear Mowatt say we were shit but I do remember Darius provoking the Mackems after scoring...it's not the end of civilisation as we know it. I'm more concerned that I might have to move my seat if the dugouts are obscuring the Beechdean touchline! (I reserve the right to contradict anything I have posted here in subsequent future posts about referees as the season progresses though.)
Refs are removed from the match list some weeks, or sent to ref a few levels down.
What exactly are you looking for? Few sackings maybe, or a public flogging?
Was nobody else wound up by Woodrows celebration. Pointing at the Wycombe corner flag, squatting and making gestures that he was shitting on us. Bordering on bringing the game into disrepute. Shows what a lowlife he is.
Like @Commoner, this was not directed at me but I would wish to offer a short reply:
That the referee should be the sole and final arbiter of fact is a timeless sine qua non for any sport that hopes to maintain an ethos worth anything. Whether flawless in their exercise of it or not (and it will always be not, of course), it is their essential function to make adjudications of fact as and when necessary.
If you want "better" referees, you can go out and find them - I dare say they are queuing up to have a go. In the meantime, and if you really want better ones, those others involved with the playing of the game would do well to consider whether they might be getting the quality of decisions, and the referees, that their conduct deserves.
Professional reffing is clearly harder than people think, in the thick of it, as evidenced by the number of mistakes.
Reffing a Sunday league game where everyone is overweight, old, and slow isn't going to be nearly as challenging before anyone chimes in with anecdotal evidence of their heroic exploits.
However, it is farcical that refs are not full time/professional in a pro league, and clearly not enough is done to attract proper footballing people into these roles.
Why do so few former players become refs? Despite there being a huge issue about what footballers do when they retire at 34 with very few transferable skills?
Every year another cohort of footballers reluctantly hang up their boots and exit the game, with many looking at much poorer job prospects than they had while playing. Yet dire referees stay in the game year after year.
If reffing was turned into a viable career, and saw a higher quality of applicant who better understood the game, we would get better decisions.
The whole idea that football refereeing decisions can be reduced such black and white decision making has ruined it as a spectacle. Previously the most highly regarded refs were those that officiated with a nuanced approach that let the game flow.
What VAR maybe should be reduced to is the original remit of "clear and obvious" errors, off the ball shenanigans (e.g. Sollbauer on Horgan), and also citing players who harangue the ref to then either punish them immediately or by the authorities later.
@OxfordBlue do most footballers and managers actually know the rules?
The refereeing fraternity will have you red carded for that, it’s Laws if the game, rules are for golf!
That's a great point actually, and I think could commentators and studio pundits not knowing the laws of the game feeds into this perception that referees make lots of mistakes.
I've long thought that all commentators, co-commentators and studio pundits should have to go on a refereeing course before every season.
Oh the shame. Despite being overweight and having poor eyesight, I'm ripping up my refereeing application now @glasshalfull
I thought for a moment @eric_plant was saying that @glasshalffull had made a great point. Just shows how important it is to copy down the post you are commenting on. Oh......
I think you tick all the boxes for the job!
Some might say that you sound like the ideal candidate!
This would be exactly what I would bring into questioning about PGMOL and what are they doing to help the situation.
Fast tracking a referee can take 5 seasons to move from L2 to Championship.
I believe (happy to be corrected) that all referees have to put the hard yards in at the bottom before they can even get onto the PGMOL list, that can take another 5 - 10 years.
I also suspect ex-players do not want to go into it because the abuse they dished out and would subsequently get from players they may have played with. It's a bit like moving from Spurs to Arsenal or vice versa. I also think the PGMOL may keep it a closed book for players because of the abuse they have received.
I would change two things:
Actually, I think Eric does have a point. I remember doing one game where Gary Neville got the law about not touching the ball again immediately after taking a free kick completely wrong. I took a referee exam as part of my FA coaching course many years ago and I always call Dermot Gallagher before every new season to check on any law changes.